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#964283 - 09/13/16 09:01 PM Re: Their 50%: Central sound tribal Coho Fisheries [Re: Sky-Guy]
Dan S. Offline
It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 16958
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
Lorraine can go fu.ck herself and die, and I hope every manager and the director at WDFW die in a fuckin' fire, too.

This is complete bullsh!t that should not be allowed to stand.

I hope people start poaching everywhere. I don't give a sh!t, and it's because of WDFW and their bullsh!t incestuous relationship with the tribes. They've made me so hostile that I'll line up to kill the last salmon myself, and then let it freezer burn and toss it out back. If I don't do it, the tribes will.

Disgusting. These pieces of sh!t make Wells Fargo Bank look ethical.
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#964284 - 09/13/16 09:09 PM Re: Their 50%: Central sound tribal Coho Fisheries [Re: MPM]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12616
Originally Posted By: MPM
OUR treaty rights


Now there's a NOVEL concept. Everyone should read it.... then read it again.

The state is not NON-treaty. Our share is NOT the NON-treaty share.

There is NO such thing as NON-treaty. Both sides signed the treaty.... each side has guarantees under the treaty.

Time to assert the state's TREATY share!
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#964287 - 09/13/16 10:10 PM Re: Their 50%: Central sound tribal Coho Fisheries [Re: Sky-Guy]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7592
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
I believe that the tribes have a right to their share (50%). The non-Indians have the privilege to the their 50%. There is a legal difference in the entitlement to the fish but it would take an (honest) lawyer to explain it.

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#964288 - 09/13/16 10:18 PM Re: Their 50%: Central sound tribal Coho Fisheries [Re: eyeFISH]
JustBecause Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 07/18/08
Posts: 234
Interesting that the ruling itself (Boldt) uses the term...

"sharing equally the opportunity to take fish ... therefore, nontreaty fishermen shall have the opportunity to take up to 50% of the harvestable number of fish ... and treaty right fishermen shall have the opportunity to take up to the same percentage".

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#964291 - 09/13/16 11:21 PM Re: Their 50%: Central sound tribal Coho Fisheries [Re: Dan S.]
Lucky Louie Offline
Carcass

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 2267
Originally Posted By: Dan S.
Lorraine can go fu.ck herself and die, and I hope every manager and the director at WDFW die in a fuckin' fire, too.

This is complete bullsh!t that should not be allowed to stand.

I hope people start poaching everywhere. I don't give a sh!t, and it's because of WDFW and their bullsh!t incestuous relationship with the tribes. They've made me so hostile that I'll line up to kill the last salmon myself, and then let it freezer burn and toss it out back. If I don't do it, the tribes will.

Disgusting. These pieces of sh!t make Wells Fargo Bank look ethical.


You left out the feds. Wouldn't be surprised if all three are in bed together on this one in Puget sound.
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#964292 - 09/13/16 11:39 PM Re: Their 50%: Central sound tribal Coho Fisheries [Re: MPM]
Lucky Louie Offline
Carcass

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 2267
Originally Posted By: MPM
Well, I just sent this off to WDFW and my state reps and senator, and cc'd some news organizations. We'll see if I get any response. Feel free to use it if you'd like.

Dear Public Officials,

It is September, the time of year when salmon return to Washington waters. Nevertheless, as many of you know (and all of you should know), almost all of Puget Sound and the surrounding watersheds are closed to fishing for coho salmon. In fact, most areas are closed to all salmon fishing.

This is because the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife and tribal biologists predicted a low return of coho salmon, and agreed to restrict fishing to protect coho runs. Unfortunately, now that returning coho salmon have passed Neah Bay, Port Angeles, and all of North Puget Sound without any sport or non-tribal fishing pressure, the Muckleshoot tribe has strung nets across the Duwamish river to catch and kill the returning coho. This is not ceremonial and subsistence fishing; it is commercial. Killing fish for money. The Muckleshoot tribe has decided to do this based on its independent determination that there is a "harvestable surplus" of coho. Of course, the Duwamish remains closed to everyone else, in accordance with the conservation-minded approach that WDFW agreed to earlier in the year.

In other words, everybody else in Washington let Duwamish coho pass by without fishing pressure in order to conserve the resource, only for Muckleshoot fishermen to catch them, kill them, and sell them at the end of their migration. I fear that other treaty tribes may soon follow the Muckleshoot's lead with other coho stocks. There is already commercial netting taking place in front of the Ballard Locks, but at least in that case WDFW has agreed that there is a harvestable surplus of coho, and has opened Lake Washington to non-tribal, recreational coho fishing starting September 16 based on that assessment.

It seems to me that there are two potential scenarios and responses that balance conservation goals and treaty fishing rights for any particular coho run. The first is that, as previously predicted, the coho return is not healthy enough this year, there is no harvestable surplus of coho, and nobody should be fishing for coho. The second is that biologists underestimated the coho return, there is a harvestable surplus of coho, and the surplus should be split evenly between tribal and non-tribal fishermen (as called for in the applicable treaties).

The current scenario, in which tribal fishermen are either (a) killing fish when there is no surplus, or (b) taking 100% of the harvestable surplus, represents the interests of the very few overwhelming the interests of the very many.

So, my question is whether you, the public officials of Washington, intend to do anything about this, and what that may be.

A direct response would be greatly appreciated.


It does work and educates those around you at the same time. I contacted my state legislators Monday with my concerns and in turn one forwarded my e-mail to the local tribe in question and got some of my questions answered by that tribe on the same day with a return e mail of other concerns and CC'd to the legislator to keep him in the loop. A little early to see what is going to be done about it-- but it is a start.

Letters to the editor also educates and alerts to a possible news tip if not sent in as a news tip directly.


Edited by Lucky Louie (09/13/16 11:48 PM)
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#964295 - 09/14/16 07:44 AM Re: Their 50%: Central sound tribal Coho Fisheries [Re: Sky-Guy]
cobble cruiser Offline
~B-F-D~

Registered: 03/27/09
Posts: 2217
Too much I5 traffic made me take 1st Ave which lead me over the 1st Ave bridge. For obvious reasons I couldn't take a picture but I can tell you I've never seen so many nets looking up river (Duwamish). They were staggered one after another as far as I could see. I am absolutely distraught about this inequality and obvious discrimination! Why is there nothing that can be done!!!???? This rude and carelessly blatant behavior is only carrying on because the tribes know they can get away with it. There has to be powerful people lining their greedy pockets with casino money one way or another. Why is this not being taken care of and why right under everyone's noses like it's no big deal???!!!!!
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#964301 - 09/14/16 09:14 AM Re: Their 50%: Central sound tribal Coho Fisheries [Re: Carcassman]
MPM Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/09/08
Posts: 764
Loc: Seattle, WA
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
I believe that the tribes have a right to their share (50%). The non-Indians have the privilege to the their 50%. There is a legal difference in the entitlement to the fish but it would take an (honest) lawyer to explain it.


I can't hold myself out as a fisheries lawyer, but I do have some experience with analyzing rights when parties hold a proportional interest to a shared resource. I believe it's reasonable to think that each treaty tribe, on the one hand, and the U.S. of A., on the other, is entitled to 50% exploitation of harvestable surplus.

However, that doesn't mean the average joe has any "right" to fish. Rather, the U.S. of A. as an entity has the right under the treaty, and can decide to do what it wants with that treaty right, including deciding not to press the matter when a treaty counterpart takes more than its share.

Now, I'd need to do a little more digging to understand how management of the nation's interest is delegated to the state.

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#964305 - 09/14/16 09:34 AM Re: Their 50%: Central sound tribal Coho Fisheries [Re: Sky-Guy]
BroodBuster Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 07/11/04
Posts: 3091
Loc: Bothell, Wa
As I understand this the state owns the game/fish but the Feds gave 50% to the tribes, 50% to Ak and 50% to Canada leaving the rest for the state of Wa.
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#964306 - 09/14/16 09:51 AM Re: Their 50%: Central sound tribal Coho Fisheries [Re: BroodBuster]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3339
Originally Posted By: BroodBuster
As I understand this the state owns the game/fish but the Feds gave 50% to the tribes, 50% to Ak and 50% to Canada leaving the rest for the state of Wa.



Looks like a good assessment to me. 150% of the available harvest (sadly, that's not even a joke some years) is taken before the fish see their home rivers... but habitat is the reason we don't have more salmon in the rivers.

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#964308 - 09/14/16 10:00 AM Re: Their 50%: Central sound tribal Coho Fisheries [Re: Sky-Guy]
cobble cruiser Offline
~B-F-D~

Registered: 03/27/09
Posts: 2217

Just drove over the 4th Ave bridge. This is looking downstream on the Duwamish. How is this "depressed" stock going to survive this gauntlet? When will their "testing" for run size be over with?



Sorry for the grainy photo. I was shaking with furry!
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#964309 - 09/14/16 10:33 AM Re: Their 50%: Central sound tribal Coho Fisheries [Re: Sky-Guy]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3339
Rough-looking habitat right there, Cobble Cruiser.

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#964311 - 09/14/16 10:42 AM Re: Their 50%: Central sound tribal Coho Fisheries [Re: FleaFlickr02]
cobble cruiser Offline
~B-F-D~

Registered: 03/27/09
Posts: 2217
Originally Posted By: FleaFlickr02
Rough-looking habitat right there, Cobble Cruiser.


No kidding, especially since this portion of the river is tidally effected so when the fish come in with the tides, they mill around and sometimes head back out as well.


Edited by cobble cruiser (09/14/16 10:42 AM)
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#964312 - 09/14/16 10:47 AM Re: Their 50%: Central sound tribal Coho Fisheries [Re: Sky-Guy]
stonefish Offline
King of the Beach

Registered: 12/11/02
Posts: 5187
Loc: Carkeek Park
BFD
Thanks for posting the pic.
Looks like business as usual for the Muks on the Duwamish.
Besides the coho, I wonder how many late arriving ESA listed kings end of being netted?
SF
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#964313 - 09/14/16 10:53 AM Re: Their 50%: Central sound tribal Coho Fisheries [Re: Sky-Guy]
Krijack Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 1529
Loc: Tacoma
I was complaining about this last week, if you read the agreement the state made with the tribes, this is exactly what they agreed to. They gave the tribes the right to open test fish the river and then unilaterally open it if they want without consulting. There appears to be no provision for non-tribal fishing. I was wrong earlier including lake washington in to this assessment, as there actually was a provision for opening it up for non-tribal, but the state did not push for this provision for the Green/Duwamish.
We could see a run 10X normal and see no fishing in some rivers, while the tribe takes them all. We , through the state, appear to have agreed to this.

It is interesting that there is no provision for the NIsqually tribe to open at all, nor is there and provision for the Puyallup's to fish the sound. These appear to have outright closures. I am waiting to see if these stay true.

Another interesting note is that on-reservation fishing for coho was allowed regardless of run size.

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#964314 - 09/14/16 10:53 AM Re: Their 50%: Central sound tribal Coho Fisheries [Re: Sky-Guy]
OncyT Offline
Spawner

Registered: 02/06/08
Posts: 511
If I were going to protest, I would be very careful about what it is I am protesting. From reading the list of agreed to fisheries, it appears that it was agreed by WDFW that the Muckleshoots would conduct a test fishery to provide an in-season update starting the week of September 4th. Then if the ISU showed harvestable coho, they would begin fishing the week of September 11th. That appears to be what they are doing, although I have to assume that the ISU showed harvestable fish.

Are you protesting them doing what they said they would do? Are you protesting WDFW agreeing to let them do what they said they would do? Both? Or something entirely different?

(Edited: Looks like Krijak, above, noticed the same thing I did)


Edited by OncyT (09/14/16 10:55 AM)

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#964315 - 09/14/16 11:01 AM Re: Their 50%: Central sound tribal Coho Fisheries [Re: Krijack]
OncyT Offline
Spawner

Registered: 02/06/08
Posts: 511
Originally Posted By: Krijack
It is interesting that there is no provision for the NIsqually tribe to open at all, nor is there and provision for the Puyallup's to fish the sound. These appear to have outright closures. I am waiting to see if these stay true.

I suspect that the difference is that there is no accepted method of providing an in-season update for the coho run in the Nisqually. Similarly, even if there is a method to update the run ENTERING the Puyallup River, that update would not inform the size of the run out in Puget Sound, therefore no rationale for any marine fishery. Similar to the problem of wanting to open a marine sport fishery with no way to update the size of the complete Puget Sound run.

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#964316 - 09/14/16 11:02 AM Re: Their 50%: Central sound tribal Coho Fisheries [Re: OncyT]
cobble cruiser Offline
~B-F-D~

Registered: 03/27/09
Posts: 2217
Originally Posted By: OncyT
If I were going to protest, I would be very careful about what it is I am protesting. From reading the list of agreed to fisheries, it appears that it was agreed by WDFW that the Muckleshoots would conduct a test fishery to provide an in-season update starting the week of September 4th. Then if the ISU showed harvestable coho, they would begin fishing the week of September 11th. That appears to be what they are doing, although I have to assume that the ISU showed harvestable fish.

Are you protesting them doing what they said they would do? Are you protesting WDFW agreeing to let them do what they said they would do? Both? Or something entirely different?

(Edited: Looks like Krijak, above, noticed the same thing I did)



So evidently 50/50 of the harvestable fish doesn't apply in this case then AND there is no way to refer to what the treaty allows because it is now void?
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#964317 - 09/14/16 11:09 AM Re: Their 50%: Central sound tribal Coho Fisheries [Re: cobble cruiser]
OncyT Offline
Spawner

Registered: 02/06/08
Posts: 511
Originally Posted By: cobble cruiser
So evidently 50/50 of the harvestable fish doesn't apply in this case then AND there is no way to refer to what the treaty allows because it is now void?

It looks to me that if you have a beef, it is with the people that should be representing your interest in these discussions - WDFW. It is not up to the Muckleshoot Tribe to make sure you get your share. That is why I am saying to be very sure and very clear about what/who you are protesting.

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#964318 - 09/14/16 11:18 AM Re: Their 50%: Central sound tribal Coho Fisheries [Re: OncyT]
cobble cruiser Offline
~B-F-D~

Registered: 03/27/09
Posts: 2217
Originally Posted By: OncyT
Originally Posted By: cobble cruiser
So evidently 50/50 of the harvestable fish doesn't apply in this case then AND there is no way to refer to what the treaty allows because it is now void?

It looks to me that if you have a beef, it is with the people that should be representing your interest in these discussions - WDFW. It is not up to the Muckleshoot Tribe to make sure you get your share. That is why I am saying to be very sure and very clear about what/who you are protesting.



I'm only "protesting" in conversation on this forum. I 'm trying to glean some insight as to why they can and we can't.


Edited by cobble cruiser (09/14/16 11:19 AM)
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