I thought you guys would get a kick out of this one. It was emailed to me by a friend. It seems the Yakima nation sent a $32,000 bill for two rain dances for the columbia basin, and BPA isn't going to pay. http://www.tri-cityherald.com/news/2001/0520/story2.html

I had deleted the post from before, as it had taken a racist spin and that wasn't my intention. What was my intention was to point out a ridiculus request made by the Yakima tribe. If you have read my posts in the past. I have never said anything racist. But I am against special rights, and gillnets, and will continue to post to that nature. I am sick and tired of how the tribes misrepresent themselves to the public. I will continue to post issues relating to over harvest practices, special rights and other issues of that nature.

[ 05-22-2001: Message edited by: Mike K ]

Mike,

I just posted a thread on racism, because of what occured on this same topic earlier tonight. I had wanted people to read it to see where it had gone wrong and how we can communcate better here on the BB, and elsewhere for all involved. Since you have deleted the thread, which is alright and understandable, I will try to briefly highlight what happened for the benefit of the RASCISM thread - which has the potential to be the most important and productive thread ever on a NW fishing website, if handled right. ....

What occured earlier was angry re-action to the Yakima Tribe sending a bill for $32,000 to the Bonneville Power Administration to pay for a couple of raindance ceremonies by the Tribe, due to the drought conditions this year. The angry re-actions were justafiable in any way it could possibly be looked at, even by the Yakimas themselves if they took a closer look at all the factors involved. However, upon a closer look at the posts in the first thread, I realized that some of them, including mine, contained racially insensative overtones. While I believe they were mostly benign insensativety, others thought they were outright inappropriate racism. That is why I started the RACISM thread, so we all can help understand each other better and can head toward a healing of our differencecs. ....

Since that thread will be about racism, please keep this one only about your opinion of the Yakima Tribes action - without racist remarks thrown in. Thanks. - RT

At great risk, I'll wade into this one....

In retrospect, the Tribe might want to rethink their position on this issue. The Tribes have been doing rain dances for centuries. For all I know, rain dances might be quite effective, for reasons unknown to any of us. However, there is a risk in sending the bill to BPA to request funding. Further, BPA should discuss this with the Tribes and try to get them to change their minds about doing it again.

I do not believe the Tribes should be submitting such funding requests. But not because rain dances might not be effective, or because it was not coordinated with BPA beforehand, or because it might not benefit the BPA hydropower system, or because it's alot of money. The reason BPA should not fund such activities is that, in my opinion, it puts a monetary price tag on traditional tribal ceremonial activities. Even the tribe should recognize that this is sacriledge and should never be considered.

As we all know, tribes across the West have been doing rain dances for centuries. I would presume they've been doing them without expectation of reimbursement from the Federal government. They should be encouraged to continue these practices when the circumstances arise, such as a drought. Or, for that matter, whenever they want.

So what has changed here in the spring of 2001? How can the Tribes put a price tag on their religous ceremonies? If they can, why not put a price on their ceremonial fishing traditions? If they can put a price on a rain dance, why not put a price on ceremonial fishing for spring Chinook in the Bonneville Pool? How much is THAT worth? How much would it cost to buy out their ceremonial/subsistence fishery? The tribes have consistently, and rightly, rejected any attempts to buy-out their fishing rights. It's a matter of principle. And religon. So too should it be with other tribal religous ceremonies.

I know Randy Settler well enough to know that he is an extremely intelligent, rational, and clear-headed individual. I sincerely hope he and the Yakama Tribe rethink their position on this issue and restore a clear seperation between dollars and their traditonal religous ceremonies.

I wonder what the tribes are thinking when they make demands like this. I heard about an article in the Everett Herald this weekend talking about some demands that the Tulalips are making. Supposedly the Tulalip informed the State and the tennants of the new shopping center on the reservation that all sales tax collected were going to be kept by the tribe. Has anyone seen the article? What are the particulars?

[ 05-22-2001: Message edited by: Vic ]

cohoangler,

I agree with your response. I don't understand how a Tribe could put a price on a religious ceremony. Even if it caused rain The tribes benefit from the hydro power just like every other resident of washington state, it is not as if they are living without the benefits of modern society.

I guess what upsets me the most is the Tribe which it came from. The Yakima nation Tribe are the major netting force in the columbia basin. They consistently take way more then they need and commercially sell the fish. They also control the runs on the Klickitat, and Yakima, which result in huge catches of fish.(I won't even go into the number of elk they butcher) Also the Yakimas and other tribes were already given concessions, when they were given 13% of the spring chinook. They didn't need to make a request for a ceremony funding, but they did. The spokes person for the tribe made it sound like it would negatively affect tribal-BPA relations if they didn't get the money(Playing the race card for money). It seems like they are rubbing the fact that they can do whatever the heck they want, in all of our faces.

[ 05-22-2001: Message edited by: Mike K ]

i want to add my input, im not gonna bash there so called religious rights/ rain dances, but religion is of man, not of jesus, who can control the weather if he wants, you may be thinking im crazy/ brainwashed, but who on earth can control weather by jus a dance? no way it can be done, but i know elijah the prophet prayed for a long time for no rain and there was drought, i think 3 or 7 years, so to me that shows we can make a request, but it isnt our choice to as whether we can control the weather, jus my opionin or is it? **berkley boy**

On a lighter note, I have always said "It's good work, IF you can get it."

Later

Paul

Cohoangler: Sorry man, but a monetary price tag has already been put on tribal tradition and culture..... THE PRICE OF TRIBAL CAUGHT STEELHEAD AND SALMON!I'll stop now because the last time we said anything negative about tribal members, we were all branded as a bunch of racist pigs and the thread, that I felt was so informative, got deleted.

[ 05-25-2001: Message edited by: LittleZoZo ]

Little Zo - Let me ask a question. How much money would it take for you to quit fishing entirely. That's right - how much to dump all your tackle, tear up your license, sell your waders and your drift boat, and completely foresake all fishing? Forever.

Not sure about you but I wouldn't trade all the money in the world for some peace and quiet on a river at 5:00am with my Lamiglass G1324 and my chest highs pitching a #4 PenTac silver-plated spinner, hoping for a fresh summer run. To me the experience is priceless. It wouldn't surprise me if your answer is the same.

But so too with the Tribal folks. But even more so. They are practicing something their ancestor's did for centuries. The salmon that sustain them today is the same salmon that sustained the generations that came before them. To them, it is religon, it is culture, it is commerce, and it is their heritage. We fish because we enjoy the experience. They fish for the same reasons we do but also because it is who they are as a people. They also fish because of what the salmon represent - their home, the Pacific Northwest.

Without getting too preachy, I will just say that you seem to be pretty strong in your views, which is okay, but it wouldn't hurt to see the world as they do. You might not change your opinions but at least you would have a better understanding of why the tribal folks see the world as they do.

Cohoangler: Good point. Sometimes I fail to see both sides of the story. I am strong in my opinions and how I choose to state them, but please don't think that I am trying to say that the tribes don't have a right to continue a way of life that has been theirs from the beginning of time. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that I see too many problems with the system and the way the rules are set up. Many of these problems have nothing to do with the tribal members themselves and are a result of the politicians that WE put in to office. You are right about one thing, I would never give up fishing, nor could I expect the tribes to give up fishing, there just has to be a better way of going about doing things than the system thatr's in place right now.

Cohoangler, I don’t think people want the tribe’s to quit fishing completely. Just to stop commercial fishing in the rivers. It was figured out long ago that the fish could not withstand commercial fishing in the rivers and the bolt decision proves it.

Cohoangler: For lack of any better words, please refer to Hairball's post directly above this one. That is yhe reason why I am so militant when it comes to my opinions on tribal/ all comercial netting. It is because commercial netting, be it tribal or non, is not in the best interest of our fish runs. We live in a day in age where rivers are being shut down all around us. We constantly hear about how salmon are on the brink of extinction, and how if we don't do something about it, the federal government is going to step in and start making decisions for us. I AM SO STRONG IN MY VIEW POINTS BECAUSE I CARE ABOUT THE FISH!!! You mentioned that the salmon and Steal head fishery is like a religion for the tribes, it's no less significant to me.Steelhead and salmon fishing is the single most important thing in my life! I've lost jobs over fishing, I've lost girlfriends over fishing. Almost every fight I get into with my wife is over fishing. So you see, fishing is definatly at the top of my list, and I do my part to take care of the fish. That's what gets me, everybody is running around talking about how much they love to fish, but no one is willing to do what is in the best interest of the fish.... Including the tribes! If they love the fish so much, then why do they net the hell out of them, pull the eggs out of the hens, and leave the carcasses to rot in the sun. Then they turn around and sell the eggs to the Japanese at $12.00 a pound! Does that sound like religon to you? The river I'm talking about right now is the Skokomish river, it's up out of Shelton. Have you ever fished it? The indians get to net it 3 days a week. They come in and literally string their nets two feet in front of the fishermen who are trying to fish the "right" way. If any one complains, the indians laugh and say " THIS IS OUR RIVER AND THESE ARE OUR FISH. IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT GO HOME. On the days that the indians aren't allowed to net, they get to take fish by means of sport fishing. Do you know what sport fishing is to these guys? It means a 3oz. tear drop sinker, 50 pound line, and a 9/0 triple hook. That's right, they get to snag on the days that they're not netting! All so they can sell the eggs and leave the chrome bright carcasses to rot in the sun! It's religon I guesse. Do you see what I'm trying to say? How can I not get upset when I go through life releaseing every native fish I catch, releaseing a pretty good portion of the hatchery fish I catch. Always taking a trash bag fishing with me so that I can bring my garbage out with me, never leaving my mono line at the river, All of these things that anybody who cares about the fish should do, then I come to the river and have to watch this kind of stuff being done by the race of people who are supposed to have more caring and understanding of what is best for our enviroment then anyone else in the world. How can I not be bitter? I would like to extend an invitation to anyone (tribal or not) to write me back and rationalize the behavior that I just finished my little tirade over. I would love to hear ANYBODY make sense of this for me. Thank you.

Little Zo - Your points are well taken. I won't argue with you since you are quite correct. What I said about you and other anglers also holds true for the tribes. They would do well to listen to the sport anglers frustrations, as you've outlined, and to try to see the world as sport anglers do. Again, they might not change their views but at least they would understand why many of us pitch a fit when we see freshly netted fish rotting on the banks of the river.

That's my final word on the subject. Good discussion. Hope your springer season went well. My was quite good but I would have liked to put a few more in the freezer......

Here's what I'm wondering. If the tribes can put a dollar amount on their "service" of providing rain. Can BPA sue them when they perform a rain dance and it doesn't rain? After all, If I hire someone to do something and they don't do it, or fail to perform, I want compensation.

How do you measure sucess, in inches, CFS's???? Just a thought!?!?

Aaron