So I'm out fishing tonight in peace and solitude. No one else around, at least as far as the eye can see. About this time 4 bozos come screeming up the river in their sled, park it just outside my casting distance and just upriver, and proceed to fish directly over me and through the relatively small section of entire river that I had thought about moving through. What a bunch of crap. Loosers -Old Chum

Hey Chum, let me get this straight - you were anchored and fishing the water out from your boat and these guys (or this guide?) boondogged or backtrolled right thru your water while you were trying to fish, so that you had to wait for them to go away? The general media and Dept.'s of F&W aren't doing enough to educate fishermen to proper river etiquette! Likely even lacking in enforcable "rules of fishing etiquette" that is overdue? These internet fishing websites are different. There is more than education here about these issues. There is proper blame in some instances. I don't believe in the 'don't squeal' syndrome that's outdated anymore. Let's get after the sh*theads out there. Post their boat numbers and descriptions on here, and give the same to fish and game officers. Enough complaints can put an unscrupulous guide out of biz. And it can put a rep on a regular river abuser to the point of getting enough negative feedback thrown at them from others on the river that it may clean up their act. Get the boat numbers, and take care of biz! ... I also suggest to start carrying a camcorder along to common problem areas. Turn on the cam as an etiquette infraction is about to occur and speak a proper tactful warning not to improperly encroach on your spot (with cam out of view picking up your words of warning). If they disregard your proper action then bring the cam up and film them in the act. This may stop them. If not, then show it to the proper authorities along with the boat numbers. If they threaten you on cam they are cooked. If they try to get you or your camera I would pull a handgun on them and yell a warning with the cam going. You have properly won and shown some @$$holes we aren't going to take it anymore. It's legal in Oregon to carry a concealed firearm while fishing. I don't know about Washington - but they may have also. I feel very uneasy about making such a suggestion, but I have had it with inconsiderate river bandits ruining fishing for others - and if the states don't have the nads to do the right thing about cleaning up this growing problem then maybe the time has arrived to step back a century or so and make the lowlife bandits conform?!? Anyone for starting a vigilante river "cleanup" crew? Just curious. That's all.

[ 07-03-2001: Message edited by: RT 1 ]

You may legally carry a firearm while on a hunting or fishing trip in Washington state. I would suggest that you get a concealed weapons license if you choose to do so, it will prevent any action against you if you are in your vehicle, etc... Having said that, I would never suggest pulling or pointing a firearm at another human unless you are ready and willing to pull the trigger(think about it).
I cannot believe the etiquette out there. I don't want to point fingers at gear fisherman, but they are almost always the ones that tromp up and start plunking right below me when I am fishing a hole or slot. Can you not see that I am flyfishing and need a little room to operate, can you not wait until I move through a spot?!
I agree that this site is a great forum to discuss issues, and perhaps some of the newbies will learn some etiquette. It takes a village to raise a fisherman!

One issue that does come to mind is that when you do start snitchin next thing you know because the chicken s***s get so scared when you confront them that they'll start screwing with your trailers or truck.. I know at one point in time I wanted to go up and freedrift the hoh but after talking to a couple of dudes about it I realized that wouldn't be to cool. There are sled rivers, and driftboat rivers. But when you're on a sled river and certain sleds think they own it just do as RT said and grab boat #'s and post them on here, it would be kind of fun to know who the real *****s are out there.

Pulling a gun on anyone is BAD NEWS! All that will do is inflame tempers until someone blows up and does something real foolish. No fish, I repeat, No fish is worth getting shot over. Some of these bozos don't even know what they have done; yet other knows full well what the game is. The trouble with the situation is that no one has broken any laws by doing what these guys did to you!

Etiquette, now that a whole different ball game. Like it has been said, the best thing to do is TALK to these jerks first, if that doesn't get the problem resolved, then get their boat numbers, and boat make and post it on this BB. If it's a guide boat that doing it, report it to the local game officer. He can't do a whole lot about it either, but he can make life a little more miserable for the guide, i.e. check his entire boat for hidden fish (little things along that line) when he comes in each time.

If it was guide, little things like that will make his clients think twice about going fishing with him again. Sometimes, just putting the old note on the jerks windshield will get the job done. He (the jerk) knows that you know what rig he is now driving, and the old "fear" takes hold. He knows that 2 flat tires is real bad news. No one really likes leaving their boat alone to get 2 tires repaired. I am not saying to do this, but its a lot better then pointing a gun at someone.

Every time I see a fisherman carrying a gun on his side when he is out fishing in places like the Cowlitz, I say to myself, there is one real insecure screwed up JERK! I go out of my way NOT to give him any help!! If he was fishing in the L.A. River, that may be different story. One thing we don't want to do is to turn our fishing areas into a "war zones".

Cowlitzfisherman,

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

Hi,

Sorry to hear about your experience, and I like most of the ideas that RT brought up, except for bringing the handgun into plain view. I always carry a handgun, fishing, hunting, shopping and to and from work, (I work in a bank, can't carry there.) but not at work. The handgun should only come in to play when there is a threat to your life, or someone elses. Actual threat, not just words.

Bob, those of us who carry concealed do so for a number of reasons, and some may be insecure, you're right, but most folks realize that the police are not everywhere, and you need to take responsibility for your own safety, and the safety of others. I have only drawn my pistol twice in 12 years. No shots were fired, and the other guy in both situations walked away, in handcuffs. I will always carry.

Now then, post the boat numbers of these a-holes so we can put some heat on them. Be kind and courteous and be a good example to the kids.

Andy

any type of harassement on the river is illegal.if you carry a cell phone,call the dept of game,the fine is 250.00 and will usually straighten the asshole up for future fishing trips.a freind of mine was being harassed and that is what the warden issued the other guy.scott

I'll keep your suggestions in mind in the future. Given that there were four of them in their boat, drinkin beer, with their dog... and there was only one of me, I opted to just try to forget about it. After they left it was peaceful again. -Old Chum

Andy,

I don't have a "big" problem with the guy who has a permit to carry his "concealed" weapon, but his weapon should remained "concealed".

Obviously he must have a good reason (i.e. you) to have the need to carry a weapon from time to time. My problem is with the nimrod cowboy who hast to "strap" his weapon on his side of his hip, or wears it around his chest to show everybody that he is a real bad dude!
I still believe, If your not hunting, then why the need for the gun when you are fishing? I have been fishing all my life, and never have I had the need to use a handgun on anyone when I was fishing.

I've gone nose to nose with a few guys, and even that didn't really solve our disputed fishing problems. I do know one thing, when you pull a gun on somebody, you may be the guy that ends up going to jail! Apparently, in your case, you got the "bad" guy.

I know you may have your reasons to carry your gun, but I still think when a guy goes fishing he should leave his heat at home or in his car. Sorry, It's just the way I feel!
When I was a guide, I had one rule that applied to all my clients. That rule was; NO GUNS ALLOWED ON THE BOAT! Bring a gun, stay on shore!

As far as it being illegal to do what these clowns did, I would first read what the RCW's say and make up your own mind. Personally, I think it would be an improper use of that law! If someone else knows a different RCW or "law" that was broken, Please let me know what it is. Remember, all fishermen have the same opportunity to equal "pursuit" of their game or fish.

RCW 77.15.210
Obstructing the taking of fish or wildlife -- Penalty.

(1) A person is guilty of obstructing the taking of fish or wildlife if the
person:

(a) Harasses, drives, or disturbs fish or wildlife with the intent of
disrupting lawful pursuit or taking thereof; or

(b) Harasses, intimidates, or interferes with an individual engaged in the lawful taking of fish or wildlife or lawful predator control with the intent of disrupting lawful pursuit or taking thereof.

(2) Obstructing the taking of fish or wildlife is a gross misdemeanor.

(3) It is an affirmative defense to a prosecution for obstructing the taking of fish or wildlife that the person charged was:

(a) Interfering with a person engaged in hunting outside the legally established hunting season; or

(b) Preventing or attempting to prevent unauthorized trespass on
private property.

(4) The person raising a defense under subsection (3) of this section has the burden of proof by a preponderance of the evidence.

Cowlitzfisherman,

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????


[ 07-03-2001: Message edited by: cowlitzfisherman ]

I had a problem with some shmuck pulling plugs down through a hole I was fishing from the bank. He did this 3 evenings in a row. On each occassion there were some nasty words exchanged. This guy doesnt fish that paticular river anymore, I guess after 6 flat tires and a missing boat trailer he had just better stay home. Im not saying who flattened his tires, and I have no idea who unhooked his boat trailer and puched it over a hill. Im sure t was some that was a little miffed at that guys lack of etiquette.

Howdy Bob,

I absolutely agree with you on the concealment issue! Don't let them know ya have one as it may escalate the issue. It is only a last resort. No more cowboys needed out there.

I always take any opportunity to pot a coyote, and have taken 3 with my little pistol while doing something other than hunting. A .40 S&W works great at under 25 yards. I also have taken grouse, and one blacktail (.44mag) while "fishing." I am always hunting.

Both of my run-ins with bad guys were work related (prior to banking) and so I had the law on my side. Maybe we'll run into each other sometime and I can tell you the stories over a beer. They are actually quite entertaining, at least now.

As to your choice not to carry, no problem with that, either. To each their own. If I ever fish with you on your boat, it will stay on shore.

My whole point was to exercise caution at all times. We are on the same side of the issue. Do whatever we can to get the a-holes in line.

Take care,
Andy

Is this what our fishing has come down to? It's a sorry state of affairs if it has come down to the above.

Hey, hey, hey .... Cowfish and Andy M, go back and re-read my post. I said to use a video cam to film an infraction in process and in the event that brought a physical affront toward him to have a handgun ready and willing to properly defend himself, if they were that stupid and crazy. Wouldn't you bring it out if 4 guys and a dog wrongly came at you when by yourself with nobody around to wittness and help the situation? That's what I described in my post. To read your posts makes it sound as if I said to wear a gun in a holster or use it to begin with - NOT! I get frustrated with misinterpreted or outright misread/misquoted posts. Please people, properly read and understand a post before you directly reply to it. Thanks. - RT

"Hey you F*&%$r!", would not be one of the first phrases I would choose to use. Assume they don't know any better, and try to teach them the right way. If they then respond with some version of the above sentence, get their boat number and description and let us know.

Some folks started cutting in line in kindergarten, and they never learned.

At what point are you too close to another fisherman? I have been combat fishing for pinks on the Skagit where my neighbors were within spitting distance and we all got along just fine. My guess is that it would have something to do with the style you were using and if it was compatible with the style of others fishing around you.

A bank fisherman generally covers water at a slower pace than folks in a boat. Does a lone bank fisherman have the right to call "DIBBS" on a 150' stretch of river? The guys in the boat shouldn't have corked him like that, but what point is acceptable? I would like to know so that I don't upset someone as it takes away from my fishing time.

Thanks, Andy

Hi RT,

I meant no ill will in my posts. I agree with you on going "fully dressed" whenever I am fishing. I would only show it as a last resort, and then I'd also be ready to immediately put it into action, god forbid. I didn't read that urgency in your post. I am sorry if I misinterpretted it.
I just disagreed with that part as I understood it. Nothing personal. We all have opinions and unfortunately because we are typing instead of talking, there is a lot of room for misinterprettation

I also made no referrence to YOU wearing a gun in the open, I was just stating my "fashion sense" on handgun carry techniques.

Having drawn down on someone twice makes you think a lot about being kinder and gentler. Always look for the way out.

Take care and don't catch all of our fish. Ya Orygunner.

Hi RT, One more thought. Is your name Bob? Cowlitz's name is Bob, so when I respond to him, I call him Bob as it is shorter than cowlitzfisherman. That may have caused further confusion. Andy

RT's first name is Steve. However, this doesn't mean that he might not have been confused by the Bob thing. Don't wanna get into that one, though. Might be kids around.

I've left fishing holes in the past when trolls moved in openly packing heat. If that is what they wanted then great, they got it. There's plenty enough river out there for me to have to risk my life over it.

Here's a suggestion.... carry a couple of golf balls with ya.... If you can hit them with one they are to close....keep in mind the occasional drifter is going to happen and if they move on just let them be.... This idea really works on wetbikers while trolling....keep in mind that you really need to lead the bikers....just some pointers here.....

Absolutely on the money, fobbman! Always look for a way out.

So how close is too close. Is it a judgement call by individual? It sounds like corking can be pretty blatant like the first example, but what about other instances.

I was fishing just below the barrier dam the other day and nobody was within 50 yards either way. I put on a 2 oz weight and started fishing the far bank side. Some guy worked his way up from downstream and gave me a pissy look when he saw all of the water that I was covering, and after I had hooked his line. Was I in the wrong, or did he "cork" me? I was there first, covering water on both sides of the river. I told him that there was plenty of room up above me, with a smile, and he just gave me another pissy look. Hooked him two more times before he moved upstream. Was I wrong? Let me know.

And if he was wrong, I knew I should'a dropped him! (just kidding)

Andy

RT,

You are taking this issue way to personal! You asked me, and Andy M; wouldn't you bring it out if 4 guys and a dog wrongly came at you when by yourself with nobody around to witness and help the situation? My answer is NO!

Maybe Andy M may feel different, but my answer is still NO! None of this was meant to make you look bad, it was just meant to make people "THINK" before they take a giant "LEAP"!

I don't think that a person should pull a weapon on another person just because he MAY perceive that he may possibly be getting ready to fight. How many cases do you know where a boat load of fishermen beat the hell out of another single fishermen?

THEY ARE FAR AND FEW! Like I said earlier, showing a weapon only adds acceleration to an already bad event.

I never forget a face, but names are something else! Sooner or later, if I put my mind to it, I will fine out who those people were, and one, by one, will TALK to each one of them in a way that they will not forget, but fully understand!

So stay cool RT, we are not mad at your posting!

Cowlitzfisherman


Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

[ 07-03-2001: Message edited by: andy m ]

[ 07-03-2001: Message edited by: andy m ]

Instead of getting mad and fighting, be better than that and outsmart them. I'm sure you were probably fishing the Sky, Old Chum, as I have been fishing the Ol' Sky for over 15 of my 26 years and I have never seen it so bad as it has been since it opened June 1. If somebody corks me when I'm on anchor, then I just grab one of my float rods and let my float freespool right down next to their boat. The corkers will not know that your float is right next to them until you give it a water-slicing yank and it's guaranteed to startle them which usually is enough to get the message across. Parker, Drift Boat(Mac), and I were on the Snoqualamie last winter when some guys decided to drop anchor right in the middle of where we were swinging our drift gear. I pulled the old yank the float trick right next to their boat which scared them and they pulled anchor and we had our hole back. Just my .02 on how you can get your point across without gettig violent. Peace

I think I was having a bad hair day yesterday. In fact, I know I was - because I have bad hair every day! I didn't mean to heat up potential violence at all. But having a bad hair day and seeing more of this cracker crap happening out on our rivers, it made me genuinely angry to read Ol' Chum's post. It's yet another in a much too long line of them - and I have really had it with this sheeyat! I don't let it happen without tactfully asking jerks to stop their infraction. Sometimes a yell is needed and that's all that is required a vast majority of the time. But what about a guy alone against 4 crackers or a guy that appears to be a small easily pushed around person? The unethical cracker jerks will much more willingly crap on the small guy's rights. That's what angers me the most, and needs solutions. What ideas for solutions do you guys have for this growing problem? (In addition to what's already been suggested).

RT

Why can't we get some basic "ethical fishing rules" posted at our public boat ramps? At least then, you could ask the NGSOB if he could read or not! Maybe that might be a "first step" into training the dumb ones! At least it would let some people know what fishing ethics are supposed to be! What better way to spend some of our "personal use" sticker money?

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

I didn't bother to read ALL the posts on this thread, so I may be repeating what someone else might have already said.... When it comes to streamside etiquet, the Cowlitz river guides are the worst I've ever seen. If you ask them they will tell you "We hav more right to be here than you do. We are out here trying to earn a living and you're just out here for fun." So, this is the logic that we are up against. Also, it's not just the guides that are rude and inconsiderate, the Cowlitz river as a whole has it's share of "Jet sled cowboys" who think that it's fine to crowd somebody....Anybody out of a slot. I've got a sled and I rarely use it because it's just too much hassle to fish with all the guides and the other A$$holes out there. Now, when it comes to packing heat.... The problem lies the fact that when you're packing heat, how many other guys on the river do you think are armed? Probably most of them. I ALWAYS pack on the Cowlitz, but I honestly don't know what good it would do. I mean, the only way I'd ever draw is if I were drawn on first, and by that time it's too late. Maybe what we need is for the stupid Game Wardens and Sherrifs to start doing their jobs and to start making their presence known on the Cowlitz. Maybe that would help to get rid of some of the "Udesirable element" on the Cowlitz and nobdy would even feel the need to pack.

A lot of good points made by all on river ettiquete. We sure did take the long way to get to a consenus. In a perfect world if we led by example, everyone would follow. A good rule to live by is this, "What would you want you kids to learn from your actions?"

Lead by example.

Andy

p.s. On my two fishing trips to the Cowlitz this year I only met two bank fishers with sticks up their butts. I would have to say that most of the other folks I met were friendly and quite helpful.

[ 07-03-2001: Message edited by: andy m ]

Not sure about the legality of "packing" when fishing.
What few people realize is that even with a concealed carry permit, if people can see even a bulge it is the same as brandishing the weapon.
Concealed means concealed!!!!!

A bulge is a bulge, and what are you doing lookin at my bulges????? Incidental sighting of a "concealed firearm" is just that, incidental. The bulge could be a pager, a knife, a first-aid kit, or even a cell phone. Brandishing is a whole other story. You wouldn't know I was carrying even if I was in shorts and a t-shirt. Most folks don't carry a full sized pistol (1911). I like the HK USP compact, cause it is just that, compact. Never had a problem, hope I never will.

Andy

Maybe I am just patient or maybe I just wont let some moron(s) ruin my day on the river. Fishing is what I love, it is what I live for. If someone runs through my water, fishes over me, corks me etc. etc., I generally ignore it. If it is a constant problem, I just head somewhere else.

It does suck when it happens and every once n a while I met say something, especially if I think they are relative neophytes and just dont understand proper river etiquette.

To me, its just much easier to head somewhere else then to get into a war of words and all worked up and let it eat at me for days.

I think its a good idea to carry a gun when fishing, if you know what the hell your doing. I dont think anybody should carry a gun in crowded conditions were tempers flare easily and besides there are people around to help if you get jumped by four guys and lasy. In the back country you have cougar/bears and other wild critters that could make things interesting, for those situations carry.

Im used to being corked every time out on the SKy by Jet boats. Im a scrawny 19 yr old, and i have no problem telling someone to find different water, and if they have a problem and get any closer than 10 feet i'll run like hell. =)

Its all just common sense.

this reminds me of a day on the chehails a few years ago, we were anchored above the mill a few miles casting spinners and looked up and this jerk came trolling between my boat and my buddys, we told the guy we were fishing where he was trolling but he kept comming back through, so we both proceded to tilt our outboard pumps up to about a 45 degree angle and when the guy trolled thru again we started our motors and soaked the jerk and his buddy, we exchanged a few unkind words and he trolled away...

bank walker, I admire people that are honest and I think you top my list....lol...

Since so many of us like to carry,at least on occaision,I think it should be pointed out that if you use a gun in self defence you will probably be prosecuted if you can't prove your life was in danger and you had no other recourse but to shoot.
I would bet most prosecutors,and juries,in urban counties don't view firearms the same way that a lot of us do.
If you can back off from a situation,even if the other guy is in the wrong,in order to avoid a shooting then you must do that or be able to explain why you couldn't.
If you carry a firearm,as I do,avoid confrontation moreso than you would if you were unarmed.
As far as education into river ettiquette,I think the state could do a much better job with the game regulation pamphlet in educating fishermen into the proper way to do things like sharing the river and how to properly release a fish.
Thanks.

As slow as my typing is I posted another topic that mirrors this pretty close.See Cowlitz guides and bank fisherman,Animosity.
The assault I'm talking about involved a guy in his 70's being assaulted by a guide and some of his clients.
The guy was roughed up pretty bad.So don't tell me you should'nt be packing when fishing.If people will gang up on an old man and thourally thrash them,then nobody is safe.
What it boils down to is the lack of enforcement on the river.The law needs to do their job.
As many people that are on the river when the silvers are in,there are bound to be confrontations.From what I've seen most are started by the sleds that feel they own the river.
I too have heard guides say they are out here to make a living so they will do whatever it takes to put fish in the boat.Screw the bank maggots.
Well they are making a living off the publics resources,so they should have a little more respect for the public.
Also bank access is horrible on the Cowlitz.Especially when what little room we do legally have is blocked off by such people as those that own the Wallace rock pit.Thus it makes the crowding that much worse.
Our D.F.W. needs to secure more access for us,and alleviate some crowding.And we need to respect what we have.Pack out our friggin garbage.How can we blame private landowners closing down their property when they have to walk through human crap and pick up garbage everyday.

The best solution suggestion I've seen so far posted is by Cowfish (Bob Reid) to have proper etiquette rules posted on a sign by all boats ramps. I will add they should also be posted at popular bank areas, such as at the Begginner's Hole on the Kalama and Blue Creek/Barrier Dam on the Cowlitz. The states should have done this long ago! A set of fair and ethical rules of acceptable behavior and conflict resolution criteria can be drawn up by a committee of anglers from this &/or other fishing websites and a consensus set of rules be forewith. They should be kept to the high priority issues, so as not to be too long - which could keep some guys from wanting to read them. They need to carry some substance in the form of "If enough complaints are issued about an individual or group of people, including guides who deserve no special privilages, then steps will be taken to remove the chronic offenders from river privilages". And these signs need to be big enough and placed in a proper place so they can't be missed. ...

I will also suggest, as I did during the Wind River cleanup event, that large signs need to be placed, along with a large garbage can chained to a tree or post, at all major trail heads to popular bankfishing areas and at boat ramps that clearly state "Do not litter. Bring your trash back out with you and deposit it in the garbage can. Anyone caught littering by random surveilance will be cited and fined heavily. Further infractions will lead to loss of fishing privilages for an extended period of time". Again, make the signs big enough and properly placed. This relatively simple, cost effective, strategy will go a long ways in cleaning up our rivers of both jerks and trash. What will it take to get this simple solution done? Who knows the proper state reps and F&G Dept. personel to send these proposals too?

(I will post this to a separate "Sign" thread).

RT