Check this article out. Some of the facts it gives gives you a perspective on how degraded the OP river systems really are. They seem healthy to the standards as they are the standards of the lower 48.

It says the Quinault once had a run of 1 million sockey. Isnt it like 24,000 for minimium escapement now. The Queets had 55,000 sockey. Whens the last time you saw Sockey in the Queets? It dosent tell you how many the Elwa had but he said it was stagaring. Also some other interesting info about the Elwa. Said it once had a Hybrid Steelhead/Searun Cuthroat cross up to 12#. Theese fish are now extinct, last documented about 40 years ago.

Read it its interesting. here it is, www.drizzle.com/~rdpayne/opa-goin1.htm

Hey Rich,

It's a good article, and I'm not disagreeing with anything in it, but I think it's valid to let people know that the author, Dick Goin, is a dyed-in-the-wool fly fisherman, and he's definitely got his own agenda... he's a big advocate of fly-fishing only regs, hence the restrictions on the Elwha in the summer.

We'd all like to see something done to preserve these runs, I think we just need to work together on it.

-N.

Hey Rich,

The article definitely outlines many key factors that need to receive more attention. Isn't the Wild Steelhead Coalition heading up some of these issues?

Chad

An interesting article but if you read it, be sure to read the response by the National Park Service supervisor and staff that is attached. The response isn't nearly as alarmist as Mr. Goin seems to suggest. But nobody should discount his message that our fishery resources ain't what they used to be, even in the most remote areas of the country.

The federal goverment ran a sockeye hatchery on the lake prior to world war 2, hence the huge runs.

The Queets does not have a lake which is necessary for juvenile sockeye, hence the run in the Queets was a freak stray run.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Maxima - Good points. As far as I know, the Queets historically had a small run of sockeye. It's one of the few sockeye runs in the world that doesn't require a lake for the juvenile salmon. I presume the run is still around but perhaps I'm being optimistic. But the 55,000 figure quoted by Mr. Goin is way out of line. A run of 5500 might have been more like it. Even that is probably excessive.

Thanks for posting this info, Rich.
Cohoangler, read it again. The ONP supervisor said "it should be noted that, despite serious problems in some stocks, park rivers support some of the strongest salmon stocks on the West Coast outside of Alaska". What kind of a comparison is this? Wild salmon stocks are crashing all over the northwest. Should we pat ourselves on the back because ONP springers are doing better than Snake River springers? It's an invalid comparison. Why doesn't the supervisor just say that ONP stocks aren't declining as quickly as others? That doesn't sound as good, but it's less misleading.
Goin isn't comparing ONP stocks to Oregon coastal stocks or Snake River stocks or Puget Sound stocks, he is comparing them to how they used to be. And there is cause for alarm when you look at it that way.
StorminN, Goin's main agenda is wild fish recovery. He only flyfishes now but he's caught more fish on gear than most of us will ever see. Flyfishing only regs are a way of reducing wild fish mortality. I think this is what motivated Goin's backing of FF only on the Elwha this summer, rather than some purist reason, as you implied.

That is a very interesting article. A couple years ago my buddy caught a native summer run in the Elwha which is a good sign. It is amazing to me that that many fish have disapeared and declined.

Rich,

Thanks for posting the article. I'd say it's more interesting than informative reading. It's important to be mindful that many of the facts in the article are really unsubstantiated assertions, that is, opinions. And, yeah, we all have opinions.

The key weaknesses in the author's assertions may be the claimed sockeye populations that inhabited the Queets and Quinault River systems. Compared to the ecologically richest systems known anywhere on earth, it seems unlikely that such large sockeye populations ever existed in these rivers. And given what we know about this environment, past and present, how would any credible person attribute greater productivity to these systems that are known to be less productive?

Additional clues to the lack of Mr. Goin's credibility are found in his claim of 12 to 14 pound steelhead/cutthroat hybrids. Do rainbow(steelhead) and cutthroat trout interbreed? Yes, of course we know that they do. And probably in most environments where their populations overlap, not just the Elwha River, where all that formerly existed has been extirpated, so the validity of the claim cannot be checked out. How about the Sol Duc? Why no 12 pound hybrids there? A modern day researcher could go look and attempt to verify or refute a claim.

Don't get me wrong. Fish populations on the OP have also experienced environmental degradation, especially in the last 50 years. But because the headwaters of most the the major OP river systems are in the National Park, they have experienced far less degradation than most other rivers in our state.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Rich, after reading all three articles I find the most important note being that Mr Goin points out that there is room for improvement and both the NPS and ONP both acknowlege this point. It is up to us the sport fishing and tax-paying community to keep the pressure on our represenatives and senators. We need to encourage them to continue pushing for passage and funding of bills or measures that will ultimately benefit fish and wild-life habitat in one of the last remaining diverse wilderness areas in the lower 48 states.

It is easy to point out flaws and kibitz about differing opinions, it shouldn't take much effort to write those letters and make sure that our voice is heard. At the very least I give thanks to Mr. Goin for taking the time to stand up and put the system on notice. At the very most I need to contact my represenative.

Thanks for bringing this article forward.

Salmo,
I too was curious about his assertion that there were once fourteen-pound cutthroat/steelhead hybrids in the Elwha. I heard recently that Curt Kraemer thinks that most of the largest sea-run cutthroat in the Stillaguamish are cutthroat/steelhead hybrids. These fish don't, however, achieve anything near fourteen pounds. There seems to be a break in the sizes of Stillaguamish cutthroat; up to twenty inches and from about twenty-three up to twenty-five inches. These larger fish are very few in number, exhibit the typical cutthroat spotting pattern and coloration, and reduced or absent basibranchial teeth. It's hard to imagine how a cutthroat could grow to a size of over ten pounds given the customary cutthroat habits of spending less than a full year in saltwater each year and only feeding in the estuary and nearshore waters.

Another flaw to point out is that there are no spring chinook left on the Elwha. I fished for them last spring and hooked a lot of them. I could see them in one hole. A bunch of big dark shadows moving around. That claim that they are gone is way out of line.

~ Dr Pepper

Salmo G wasn't Lake Crescent at one time, in recent geological history, connected to Lake Sutherland which is connected to the Elwha?
Makes sense to me that a type of large lake dwelling cutthroat may have evolved within the Elwha watershed as evidenced by the presence of crescenti in Lake Crescent. If thats the case then a portion of this forms gene pool may have been isolated in the current Elwha watershed first by the geological seperation of the two lakes. The second isolation but not totally complete of this portion would have occurred with construction of the dams. Now in Lake Crescent the Beardslee and Crescenti evolved together with no known hybridization due differing life histories. If the crescenti portion that may have been isolated in the remaining Elwha system were then forced to interact with large anadramous type rainbows which were also somewhat trapped by the dams well then you have a combination which could cause hybridization and possibly produce 12 pound hybrids. I'd recommend a read of Trotters bok on Cutthroat. On the Sol Duc and most other rivers hybridization probably does not occur to any great degree because the causes of large scale hybridization just haven't occurred.

Gooose

i'm not gonna speak for anyone, but my understanding of the fly-only regs for a couple months in the summer on the elwha (and hoko for that matter) were simply the only way to keep the river open to any fishing. there was and continues to be large numbers of anglers targeting these king salmon that the state and nmfs has decided need serious protection (both fly and gear... so the regs may not be having the neccessary effect). we've already had one poster admit to targeting these fish (dr. pepper, i'd like a defintion of spring, because the elwah is closed to all fishing in march, april and may) and that is the primary reason for the gear closure on the elwha.

as for the numbers of fish quoted... i might be mistaken, but i believe bruce brown in "mountain in the clouds" also quotes the 1 million sockeye number when it comes to the quinault (and it was prior to the federal sockeye hatcheries that were built on the lake). i believe he also mentions some large harvest numbers during WW2.

of course, we have to take people's observations with a grain of salt. but to me, saying things just aren't possible is just as false as inflating numbers or sizes of fish. to be honest, we really have no idea about most historical run size data on the OP rivers (much less those throughout the rest of the state). i for one think that the recollections of those who were around prior to some of the most damaging habitat alterations are interesting, and while can't be proven in any scientific way... can give us some idea of what the fish runs were like (and i don't disagree with taking some of the comments with a grain of salt... but do disagree with dismissing much of it because it's not verifiable).

just some rambling thoughts... and don't forget to write letters and e-mails about the upcoming wdfw rule proposals... it's an opportunity for us to give some input on future management directions.

chris

I was on the Elwah this fall fishing for summer-runs. It was a really neat river which is pretty much roadless and lots of great flywater for steelies.

Anyways I dont remember how many dead 'Nooks I counted with their bellies slit open. What for? Eggs!

It sure managed to ruin an otherwisse great day on a beautiful river with lots of spawning kings around.

Another reason to ban fishing with roe. I know you will say anyone that poaches fish just for eggs will not have a problem fishing eggs illegaly but it is a lot easier to catch a guy fishing eggs then one who sneaks down to the river in the middle of the night, snags a fish, swipes the eggs and is gone in 2 minutes.

[ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: RPetzold ]

I was just talking to a guy about the kings and the ones I was catching were in June-July. So I guess these were summer Kings. I was fishing legally, but I was targeting Kings or summer-steelhead. I was using yarn and eggs at first, but then I realized I could catch them on just yarn. So it was plain old yarn that worked on them. When it was fly fishing only I went down there with a fly rod and hooked a couple Kings on yarn also. I was just down there having fun. There is no way I would have kept them or cut them open for eggs. Saw an indian down there that said, "I'm gonna let 'em stack up and then go down and snag them outta there." Who gives a sh!t if I want to catch and release a couple kings if the indians are going to snag a bunch out of there.

~ Dr Pepper

well, if you want to see the elwha closed permanently in the summer, continue to specifically target the chinook. and if the river is closed to salmon fishing and you are specifically targeting them (regardless of the ethics of other fishermen... tribal or non-tribal) you are not fishing legally.

the simple fact is that if we can't control ourselves, someone else is going to.

chris

special, what all does your group want to ban? i`d realy like to know, thanks.