Wild brood stock hatchery fish such as the Snider creek fish of the Sol Duc. I personally look at these fish as wild fish and release them as In my opinion they only help the early element of the wild run. I dont see a problem with keeping them but I release them anyways.

What do you guys think about this? have these fish been hateryized or are they good for the system?

I suggest releasing them as you would an entirely wild native fish. That's because their genetics are from the river they are indigenous to; same as a wild fish. Even though they may harbor some of the behavior characteristics of brats, the more important thing is the genetics; and the likelyhood they can naturally spawn young native wild fish out in the river - which brats can't do well, fortunately. These programs are becoming widespread region wide now, and may ultimately be the solution to current hatchery methods; and possibly saving some native runs from extinction as well. We are still fairly early in these programs in most places. Until their numbers are proven high enough, release them. They will be marked differently than the typical adiose clipped brats.

RT

i don't understand how taking native stock from the rivers and killing them,raising fin clipped smolts so they come back as a harvestable fish can possibly help the river systems.it is my understanding that the female native rarely lives through the egg taking process,a little more success with the milking of the males.so every year there killing natives to make hatchery fish because 99% of the fisherman out there see a missing adipose fin and the club comes out.i'm also talking about the broodstock program on the satsop,not sure what the process is on the other rivers.if they would broodstock the rivers,leave the fish untouched as true natives, this could be a great program.for some reason the wdfw won't allow the fish to enter the river without being clipped so what we have is a few less natives every year and a few more fin clipped harvestable fish.now how long do you thik this is going to last before we run into a problem??scott

Not all broodstock programs result in hatchery workers killing natives. In the Chinook broodstock program on the Dungeness, for instance, the natives are allowed to pass upriver and spawn on their own. Hatchery workers then hike the river and count and identify redds. They pick a few redds to get eggs from, and they go out in the spring to do this... the parents are long gone.

They have a gizmo that they insert one end into the gravel, it gently pumps air and water into the redd, and floats some of the eggs, which are collected in a bag. They only take some of the eggs from various redds, and I believe they are raised seperately.

my $.02

-N.

The Snyder program is polluting the river with a large percentage of smaller fish. By passing the natural selection of large breeders is unhealthy for the ecosystem. Kill the small ones and allow the big genetic trait to survive by releasing the larger fish. Every fish is important but the program is flawed from using the smaller returning adults in the creek.

The true Solduc fish are a higher percentage of 3 salt or more. Remove the small fish that have been introduced into the ecosystem.
The Solduc shouldn't suffer the Bogie Brat Blues.

Snider fish have a clipped ventral fin so you can tell the difference from them and other hatchery fish.

I agree that if your gonna bonk one that it might as well be a small one. No reason to let the Pee Wees go if your hungry. seems like there are quite a few 4 to 5 pounders around from what ive heard.

Challenged, you state:

"...the program is flawed from using the smaller returning adults in the creek."

What gives you the idea that only the fish returning to the creek are used for spawning? What evidence do YOU have that Snider fish are smaller?

Personally, and as a boat rule ... all Snider stock are released. If released, they will spawn in the Creek (and actually some other creeks in that vicinity) and spawning counts within that portion of the Sol Duc near that area has increased substantially.

Challenged-
I am not one to speak on specifics of the age composition of the Sod Duc native return but small fish are not necassarily bad.

We must understand that a healthy population will always have large amount of variabilty as it is what protects populations from large scale natural disasters.

Comparing the Snyder Creek program and the Chambers Creek brats is like comparing apples and oranges as one program is using natural broodstock while the other is overwhelmed with intrabreeding, very little genetic diversity etc.

And because the Snyder Creek program is designed to propograte the early returning wild fish (which have been decimated all over the state) these fish may have historically been smaller fish and not as large as late-Feb, March and April wild fish.

Take in mind though, that my knowledge of the Snyder Creek program is limited to what I've heard and is not based upon anything published.

But my point is, that small fish aren't bad. The Chambers Creek brats are not flawed because they are small but because they aren't as aggresive, do not fight as well and do not have any of those traits of wild fish that so many of us love.

I have had small 6 pound natives tear me and go nuts that are the same size as your typical Chambers Creek brat.

[ 12-30-2001: Message edited by: RPetzold ]

I'm not sure how brood stocking is done up in wa. But broodstock steelies down here are live spawned and released. One of the rivers I grew up fishing (the south fork coquille) has had a broodstock steelie program since the 80's thanks to a motivated STEP biologist. These are hatchery fish. Put there to harvest. If I catch one, it's dinner.

Let me start off by letting everyone know that one the wild brood stock of the Snyder Creek program are spawned they are let go to return to the ocean. They will return to spawn another day. Personally I think the project is a huge success. It has brought back a lot of fish that are not there anymore due to over netting in the Quil. A lot of old timers in Forks say that between November and January used to be the best of the steelhead run. With mostly big natives. Out of thirty adult steelhead they raise 50-75 thousand smolt to be released in the spring. I dont think they could make this many smolts spawning in the wild. Besides it gives the indians something to net early on and just maybe it will reduce the number of days that they fish a little more. If any one has any questions about the program give Sam Windle a call and he will set you straight about it all.360-374-5439 Have a safe and happy New Year.