There is no question in my mind that WDFW is currently managing sections of this river like a bunch of jerks!

This is in my opinion, definitely a runaway biological bureaucratic management plan at its best! We are talking about the North Fork of the Toutle River here (the section of river below the sediment retention dam to the "Kid Valley Bridge") that was destroyed after the Mt. St. Helens biological disaster. I invite all of you "WILD fish FOLKS" to jump right in and attempt to defend WDFW managements position if you think that you can justify its policy. Here are the facts, as I know them:

WDFW 2002- 2003 fishing rules state (page 88 of the rules) that it is closed to the keeping of Chinook salmon from the "Kid Valley Bridge" near 504 upstream from Oct. 1-Nov. 30 on the North Fork of the Toutle.

Why in the world is this area closed to the keeping of Chinook? It's been over 20 years and the Chinook still are unable to spawn in this area due to the continued massive flows of sediment and ash.

The facts are; 99% of the Chinook that inter this area are "hatchery" stock fish from the Green River Hatchery. Maybe a few are from naturally spawned fish that are possibly coming down from the upper tributaries above the Green River Hatchery (and I mean a very few). As you know, Chinook are mainly main river spawners and are not small tributary stream spawners.

This area is so heavily silted-in with sediment and ash from the overflow the sediment dam that it is virtually impossible for any natural spawning to successfully occur. The facts are the further down river you go, the more the sediment has settled and some gravel and cobel does exists at certain times of the year.

The WDFW rules also state (page 66) that on the Green River, you must "Release Wild Chinook though July 31 th. The rules also state that you must also "Release all Chinook" from Oct. 1-Nov.30. Currently every "Chinook" that enters the Toutle has an attached adipose fin.

Please ask the WDFW why we must release "all Chinook" in those areas!

There may be a "little sense" on doing this in the Green River and its tributaries, but if 99% of those fish are coming from the Green River Hatchery, and are not the natural spawned prodigies of native fish, why then even the closer (could it be bureaucratic stupidity?) there? So why has WDFW continued to keep this limited area on the North Fork of the Toutle closed for the taking of Chinook from Oct 1-Nov 30?

Answer; simple, it is part of the ongoing bureaucratic WDFW endless stupidity!

So please, ask WDFW to explain to me and everyone else, why we need to close off this area for the harvest, or "taking of Chinook" from the "Kid Valley Bridge" to the mouth of Green River from Oct 1 to Nov 30 on the North Fork of the Toutle, when it is, and has been almost impossible for Chinook, or for that matter, any other salmonoid specie to successfully spawn there since 1980.

Again, why then does WDFW continue to think that it is so darn important to release Chinook from Oct 1-Nov 30 in this particular section of the Toutle River?

Yes, I know that most of these Chinook are getting pretty darn dark and ugly by this time, but what's the difference between that fishery and any other Chinook fishery in all other SW Washington rivers at this time of the year?

In my opinion, as long as there remains a sediment problem, this type of bureaucratic stupidity is just another example of how WDFW has placed the "wild fish" advocates at ends with the harvest minded fishermen. It's time to make the appropriate changes on the Toutle River by using real science and not BS. I have spoken to the Regional WDFW Biologist and requested that this change be proposed in the next set of rule changes. Does anyone else have other suggestions for our next rule changes that may affect the Toutle?

Cowlitzfisherman
Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

Here's a theory:

From what I understand about the Toutle and its recovery after the eruption is that the biologists decided to leave the system alone and observe its natural recovery. With that in mind, maybe what they are doing is allowing for a good number of returning fish the opportunity to naturally spawn. Maybe it doesn't happen this year, or even in this decade. If we interfere any more than we already have, we skew the results of the study. I have heard that the Toutle at one time had an incredible run. It would be interesting to see if it ever recovers on its own.

This is the part of science that sucks-research. Especially when you are studying an entire ecosystem. This is a once in a lifetime opportunity to study this system from square one, and it will be an on-going study for years to come. There have been some big suprises already.

Again, these are just my thoughts on this issue. I'm not an expert in any of this, just an interested spectator.

So release that old boot. You'll be doing it for science.

I have a feeling the regs. were put in place because it was easier to have a blanket rule for a lot of the lower Columbia tribs. The Elochoman and Washougal have similar regulations to protect spawning tule chinook. The WDFW is trying to do some good things, as far as angling opportunities at the headwaters of the Toutle. The WDFW would like to see a limited C&R fishery on Spirit Lake. The WDFW wants the public to experience a remarkable fishery. If done correctly there would be very little impact on Spirit Lake. But the Forest Service is doing everything it can to make sure it will never happen.

With regards to the previous post, isn't 22 years is long enough for this study?? I would think that the majority of the study involves the subject of sediment removal via natural water flow, and that can be simulated in the lab much easier than waiting 100 years for nature to do it. Why doesn't WDFW take on this river as an example of what can be done to resurrect a ruined waterway?

With regards to WDFW in general, have you ever noticed that they are forever doing these studies (which appear to us as rules or restrictions), but we, as the user or customer, never receive a report on it? Experimental efforts, be them in the lab or in the field, are supposed to have a hypothesis, an experiment, data discussion and dissemination, and, finally, a CONCLUSION!!!

I know of no on-going studies that relate to fall Chinook from the Kid Valley Bridge up stream! If they exist, then lets hear what they are. If they wanted to see how fall Chinook survived, why would they have not closed the entire Toutle?

It's all just pure plan bureaucratic BS!!

Remember, in WDFW the left hand never knows what the right hand is doing.

Cowlitzfisherman
Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

I don't think it's just sediment removal they're looking at. It's the entire ecosystem. Sure, there are alot of things you can simulate in the lab, but you are having to place alot of faith on your own calculations and theories when you begin a simulation. There are too many variables that I can think of that would sway the data. The scientific community already have found flaws in their theories about recovery times. 22 years in geological time is absolutely nothing compared to the big picture. Actually, a geological study of 100 years is still a short time.

Again, this is my theory.

As far as the WDFW is concerned, any labratory simulations to observe their behavior would wind up with the conclusion that it is a chaotic entity that cannot be quantified.

CF,

If you're not able to get an exact answer from anyone you might try applying this model to the problem:

Who benefits from the chinook closure?

How much money (if any) is available for any potential research?

Where would this money (if any) come from?

Do you honestly believe that there is an on-going conspiracy at WDFW to pit wild fish advocates against harvest-minded anglers, and if so, why?

While it is easy to point fingers at WDFW and claim incompetence, do you honestly think that this is the case?

We may not always understand the motivation behind actions like the chinook closure on the Toutle, but rest-assured that someone, somewhere does, and stupidity is probably not the impetus.

CFM,

You know the WDFW players in the region as well as anyone. Ask them. What is the answer? I agree; most chinook in the system anytime are GR hatchery fish. Guessing at an explanation for the closure, two things come to mind. 1) it might be a precaution to ensure hatchery escapement if chinook stack up in that section of the Toutle during low water; and 2) it might be a precaution to obtain natural spawning escapement above the sediment dam if chinook stack up in that section during low water.

Natural spawning in the Toutle apparently remains futile due to the ash, but spawning does occur in Alder Creek - maybe even for chinook although I don't personally know - and I think Elk Creek.

And of course, it could be that there is no biological reason for the regulation. Wouldn't be the first time.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

I believe the WDFW's first priority is to appear as good wildlife stewards to the general non-fishing public. This is the only reason I can see for closing the Lake Wa. sockeye season after only 3 days when nearly 400,000 fish were present and destined for one itty-bitty river.

To recount this sockeye fishery, every summer the drama builds as everyone wonders if there will be a season. And 4 out of 5 years the answer is no because the 350,000 fish escapement rule has not been met. So, WDFW, what is the big worry anyway??? What happens if you make a huge miscalculation and the sportsman and Indians catch every single fish and wipe out the run? Well, you could simply re-introduce it as was done when the locks first opened!!!

The Lake Wa. sockeye policies are one of the reasons I sometimes wonder about the WDFW.
Closing down hatcheries is another. The death of Eastern Washington pheasant hunting is a third.

What's even worse is how they killed the douth toutle after the erruption. in the early 80's wild einter steelhead quickly recovered in the South Fork and was the ONLY river in SW Washington meeting it's escapement goals! So what did WDG go? opened up a kill fishery!?!?!? Soon the river was in the pot again. Then they stated planting Skamania summer runs then eliminated the kill fishery on the wild winters. The run is still in the tank showing no signs of recovery. WDFW cannot manage anything! the managers should all be fired and let the Bio's take over.

Hmmmm, I was thinking fire the Bios and the managers and let the feds and Indians take over!!! They seem to produce fish.

Does BS stand for "Best Science"? That's the only kind the WDFW uses nowadays. No doubt, the regulation you're concerned about is based in BS. The tangle-net fiasco, sports season emergency closures on the heels of massive commercial harvests, and the decade long closure of the Cedar River to all fishing are other examples of decisions influenced by BS.

Saturday, I took a drive up the N. Fork of the Toutle. It looked like choc. milk, or the Puyallup, but there were fishermen lined up all along its banks. The river still looks barren and sterile, as it did when I last visited it a couple of years after the blast. Could all of these chinook carcasses be needed to increase nutrients in that stretch of river?

I believe last year the entire Toutle was closed to Chinook for the whole season...not just above Kid Valley after October 1st. I visited the hatchery a few times and it had a healthy run, no real reason to close it all year....maybe this is a compromise in some way....but anyone who would keep a Chinook at the Sediment Dam after October 1st is insane anyways....even below Kid Valley that late the fish are pretty dark and nasty.

I agree these regs make no sense...but go figure.

Cedar the amount of fertilization our rivers need is way more than carcasses could provide. What they are doing in BC is adding pellets of blocks to the stream that are the equivelant of 10's of thousands of carcasses

Ummmmmm, are they selling the 'surplus' chinooks to the catfood people or others for a WDF profit?????

This sort of thing has happened on the Cowlitz with the Spring Chinook at Barrier Dam....
(bids, I think)

Here is another one: Resticting the Buoy 10 chinook catch to one fish while in the middle of a huge run. Just like lake Washington sockeye, buoy 10 is a very visible fishery where WDFW can come across as looking like responsible stewards of our wildlife. The numbers themselves are ignored in these decisions, and if any fisherman complains he is perceived as being greedy.

Here are some answers to all of your replies

Billy Bob; Do you really think that WDFW has keep this unnamed "scientific study" a secret for over 20 years? If so, why would they have allowed the COE to interfere with this "natural process" and allowed the man made interference of the sediment dam that dramatically changed the "natural" recovery of the Toutle for ever?

4Salt; 1) I did ask one of the leading long standing Biologist for this area why we had the closer; his answer was "I don't know why it's closed, but who would want to keep one of those dark old things anyway and that he had only heard one other complaint about this issue." It is my understanding that there is a new WDFW study that will start next year to see what the success of smolt survival passage is over and thru the sediment dam. 2) their must be lots of money available because the Core of Army Engineers just finished a huge study of the long term effects of the Toutle River and it's sediment effects on the lower Cowlitz and Columbia River. 3) The money most likely would come from the COE. 4) You asked; Do you honestly believe that there is an on-going conspiracy at WDFW to pit wild fish advocates against harvest-minded anglers, and if so, why? My answer is probably so! WDFW must be held responsible for their management decisions. Until someone with the authority from WDFW can explain the logic or reasoning for this closer, that is my opinion. 5) You also asked; while it is easy to point fingers at WDFW and claim incompetence, do you honestly think that this is the case? Yes, I do! I personally know numerous WDFW staff and have worked with WDFW for numerous years. Not all WDFW employees are "incompetent", but there are a bunch of them that are! You need to look no further then the Director himself and his key staff! I need to look no further then the part that the head management played in the "Settlement Agreement" that WDFW signed with Tacoma Power… what a joke!! And finally, you said "rest-assured that someone, somewhere does, and stupidity is probably not the impetus." Well they (WDFW) have their chance through this thread to prove me wrong, don't they!

Salmo g; As usual, you have been around WDFW long enough to known what really goes on!
Yes, I did ask our regional Biologist (you know who) and he could not give me the answer either. You make a "good point" about natural spawning in Alder Cr. and Elk Cr., but if that is the case, how in the world could WDFW known what was native stock and what was hatchery stock? Since all Chinook on the Green River Hatchery are left with their adipose fin attached and are unmarked, how could they possibly known if they are passing native stocks into those 2 rivers? Wouldn't that be against the WDFW "Wild Salmonoid Policy"? If not, then why not use hatchery stock fish for recovery in every river system? Finally, you said "And of course, it could be that there is no biological reason for the regulation. Wouldn't be the first time." As usual, you know what you are talking about!

Barnettm; If it smells like a rat, has a tail like a rat, has hair like a rat, has beaded eyes like a rat, it can only means one of two thinks. It's either a "rat" or it's a "possum" in disguise!

Robert Allen3; they also need to fire a few of those "bio's" too!

CedarR; you got it!!

Periwinkle; You asked "are they selling the 'surplus' chinooks to the cat food people or others for a WDF profit? They may very well be! I stopped by the Green River Hatchery on Wednesday and they were loading up the trucks to take fish to the "food banks" They didn't say if those fish were Chinook or Coho, but if they are doing that with the Chinook run, how in the heck could they possibly tell wild Chinook from hatchery Chinook when neither are marked?


Cowlitzfisherman
Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

4Salt

Just couldn't resist giving you one more answer and reply to 2 of your questions

Quote:

"Do you honestly believe that there is an on-going conspiracy at WDFW to pit wild fish advocates against harvest-minded anglers, and if so, why?" And; "While it is easy to point fingers at WDFW and claim incompetence, do you honestly think that this is the case?"

Please read my latest post (Sport fishermen take it in the shorts again!) about another 2 week 24 a day gill net fishery that WDFW and other "management" bone heads have just given to the gill netters. "Incompetence" is way too mild of a word to use for these bone heads.

Cowlitzfisherman
Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

One thing came to mind about the land that this stretch of river is on. Is it in National Forest lands? Maybe there's another bureaucratic element involved here at the Federal level.

Don't know. Just asking.

Billy Bob

Good question!

I don't really know about all the "land" in this area, but I do know that Weyerhaeuser does own most of the land from the "kid Valley Bridge" upstream.

Cowlitzfisherman
Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????