Just saw reference that the conservative think tank 'Rand' (I believe it may be called the Rand Institute) recently did a comprehensive study on removing the Snake River dams -- bottom line was that such an action would provide a net benefit to the region.

I've not had time to look it up -- anyone have time for a net search?

From the perspective of the smolts alone, there is currently anywhere from 10-30% smolt mortality PER dam as they head to the ocean. Most apparently are killed form the tubines. You can read this in the Corps helpful "salmon and dams" brochure where they tell of how they steer 80-90% of fall chinook smolts and 70-80% of spring/summer chinook smolts away from the turbines at each dam. I have seen a graph of counts thru the 7 dams (can't find the webpage) and only a small percentage make to the ocean in a given year (1-10%).

-------When a smolt "swims" to the ocean, their heads are pointed upstream.-------

So they don't actually swim, Rather they count on the river's current to take them out to sea. It shouldn't be too hard to figure what one factor limits smolt ability to make it out sea (but it apparently is for most). If all dams were removed, the speed they would make it back to the ocean alone would reduce many other death contributing factors to a minimum (barging has not been sufficient means to remedy this). If you don't have smolts, you don't have adults. Of course if there were all those smolts, could the ocean even support them with current commercial constraint on food sources. Hey, maybe we don't want too many smolts!! That'll be the next thing people will try to argue.

From an economic standpoint, alot of the jobs we justify keeping the dams for are subsidized thru tax dollars. Meaning they aren't turning a profit. We don't hear much about them from that standpoint, But I can't decide whether jobs thru tax dollars are either good or bad. I don't think there are very many companies making an actual profit in todays economy.

How do we know this? Everything I've seen recently does not support this idea.

Dan

Just look at their hair!!!!

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

Too funny, cowfish!

Another byproduct of dams is the beach erosion going on along the WA and OR coasts. Without the tons of sediment that used to wash out of the Columbia to be deposited on the beachfront, the wave action is now removing beach, instead of building it.

Humans rarely think about ALL the consequences to our actions. We are masters of modifying our environment.......we aren't masters of foreseeing the consequences.

Dan, sorry about my first reply, but I just couldn't help it!

All kidding aside, we as humans, are affected by electricity. It is my opinion, that all life forms are "affected by electricity". Too what degree, well that's beyond my limited education…but not to my common sense! Maybe some other member has a better understanding of this then I do.

BUT, I do know how animals and fish react to it! Has anyone watched a deer getting close to an electric fence, or a smolt going down stream into an electrical field? The deer most often "knows" when the fence is on or off because he can "feel" the "electrical field" and he can "back off", but the smolt learns only the "hard way" and then its to late… right?

Look what they have done at places like the Barrier Dam on the Cowlitz! They have an electric current running all the way across the Barrier dam to prevent "adults" from jumping over the Barrier Dam (it also works well for stopping and killing any "wild" smolt that may have made it down through the upper 3 dams). The only reason they (Tacoma and WDFW) do it, is because it will cost them (Tacoma Power) big bucks to capture any wild adults that want to pass above the Barrier Dam. More money for wild fish simply means less money for WDFW hatchery "jobs"! Tacoma Power has made this position quite clear!

The game goes on and on!

Well, so much for those wild adult fish that don't "want to go" into Tacoma's hatchery… what the hell, what's a little shock going to do anyway when those fish are plumb full of eggs?

Probably just toughens up them for the real world…right?

And look at the results that WDFW and BPA have found out about using "electricity" to "shock" fish for transport. It's my understanding that is now considered to be a no-no practice! It really screws them up, even in the "short term"…right?

Who even knows what electricity does to fish… maybe that's why glow balls work so well to catch them!

Yep, it's still my laymen opinion that "electricity" does screw up and affect both humans and fish.

Cowlitzfisherman
Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

cowfish,

There are many animals, and many varieties of fish, that are affected in different ways by electrical fields. The Black Boxes so many anglers use is an example of taking advantage of a fish's reaction to electrical fields.

I watched a Discovery channel show about sharks once. In it, a Sand Tiger shark at an aquarium would swin around his enclosure, and veer into the wall at a certain location every time he went by. The shark's keepers were concerned by its behavior and looked into a possible cause. What they found was this. A tiny crack in the concrete enclosure had allowed the salt water to seep into the wall. When it reached the rebar inside, it began to corrode the steel and cause a minute electrical current. When the shark swam by, he zeroed in on the current, and would bash into the wall. They drained the tank, fixed the cracks, sealed the concrete, and the shark lived happily ever after. So yes, electrical currents do affect fish and their behavior.

I was speaking about possible genetic defects, or cancers, that EMF has been claimed to cause.

I should have been more clear in my response.

Actually, prolonged cell phone use has been linked to cancer. If you dont believe that these fields are strong, set your cellphone by your computer monitor and give it ring. Watch the screen go haywire.

That is BS. I work in the industry and there is no conclusive evidence that radio waves cause cancer. Your body is bombarded by radio waves of all different frequencies all day long. Who can say that only an 850mhz or 1900mhz (which are what most cellphones use)frequency will cause cancer. No-one.

Yea Sky, you probably work for wireless industry doing studies that conclude it doesn't, while other studies from outside the wireless industry say it does. What was that about radar detectors and police , and Leukemia in kids from prolonged electromagnetic radiation exposure from power lines? Ah, It's hard to remember those have been out so long. There are many studies showing the link with cellphones and the microwave/electromagnetic radiation they give off. That's good enough evidence for me, and the outcome of the findings has no effect on my job, other than telling me to use the cell's less. But if you work for the wireless industry, the outcomes certainly can effect your livelyhood from people's airtime. It kinda goes along the same mentality with the fish. We have all these studies out showing the correlation of dams vs salmon/stelelhead declines, yet people argue their validity saying its gotta be all these other reasons(especially the people directly affected by dam removal). I can understand trying to protect your jobs, but give me a brake. It's plain common sense that dams have caused the declines and have modified all other effects along the way. They reduce smolt numbers directly in the turbines at 10-30% per dam, they slow the water down enough so that the current hardly carries them out to the ocean(fish go to ocean with head pointed up stream)which in turn makes other things a larger factor such as temperature and predation.
I mean what is with people? Sure, say you want to "explore other ways than dam removal", or make the argument that " economically we can't afford to remove them", But don't make the argument that dams aren't the main reason behind decimated wild runs. If you do you should be forced to take a course in fisheries biology (and pass it). :p

Shane,

If you're referring to conclusions drawn about EMF and cancer from the Swedish study everyone likes to wave around, then you'd better look for a reliable study. Their conclusions were garbage, and Sweden spent several billion dollars burying high-tension wires to protect their citizens from a cancer risk that doesn't exist.

If you can find a study that says different, please provide a link so I can check it out. Everything I've read confirms what Sky-Guy posted. It's hysteria, just like Alar and Saccharin.

You want to avoid cancer? Then don't smoke and stay out of the sun.

Dan

I think your right about how electricity effects fish!

I know that there are various "theories of how" our salmon are able to find their way to their feeding grounds and then return back many years later as adults, but does anyone know for sure if passing through these massage electric fields affect their "homing ability" to return?

Just maybe, that may be one of the reasons that so many fish return back to smaller streams in places like Alaska and other river system that don't have dams on them. The more I think about it, the more merit I give it!

Electricity may not injure fish physically, or give them brain cancer, but it sure may screw up their ability to return home. I never recall seeing any fish using a cell phone

What do you guys think?

Cowlitzfisherman
Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

cowfish,

I'd never really thought of it before you brought it up. I have seen a few shows where salmon migration was affected by different water diversion projects, but nothing really in-depth on all the tools salmon use to make their way back to their water of origin. I know that they use smell to locate their home waters, but nothing on how they navigate the ocean waters and make their way back.

Interesting question, though.

There are no links to actual "studys" that support or show no relation, just papers and newstorys that relate to them
But here some links anyways

http://www.emrnetwork.org/research/research.htm (has a bunch of links)
http://www.emrnetwork.org/research/research.htm (same)
http://www.100megsfree4.com/farshores/nemrad2.htm
http://www.milligauss.com/news.html (biased they sell comp monitors)
this one cant decide but leans your way strongly http://www.mcw.edu/gcrc/cop/powerlines-cancer-FAQ/toc.html
Theres tons more that support either way.
So take your pick on what to "believe". I can take an educated guess on their effects. We may not see them for years to come.
Same as lung cancer and cigarettes.

It sure is strange why the goverment had to put "emf" output level caps on cell phones, and why certain types have been put out of production because they didnt meet these reqs. After all they are perfectly safe.

I also live in town with paper mill that "doesn't" cause one of the highest rates of allergies/sinus problems in the country, or the highest rate of hodgkins disease ( a form of lymph cancer) in the country. And it doesnt smell bad enough to keep other commerce from entering our area. The mill is a gold mine and I wouldn't want anything to happen to it or the jobs of some of my friends. Who cares whether they discharge hot effluent directly into the water or whether their settling ponds are visably leaching scudge thru the banks into the river.
It's no forseeable damage. We'll just look the other way, and see things the way that meet our needs.

ShaneR

Indeed, you are a very concerned fishermen and person!
Thank you for you concern, references and replies. This is what opinions/science is all about. We all need to be able to review the facts before we lock our minds into form. No one wants to dominate their opinion over others, and we appreciate all of your impute. It's quickly becoming a more complicated world for both fish and man!

Cowlitzfisherman
Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

Radiation effects are easy to simulate in the lab. Just put the rat into the special oven, turn it on for a few days, weeks, or years, and then record the results. Alot more straightforward than other types of research, so I would tend to believe the experts who say that cell phones and overhead power lines are safe.

With respect to power lines disrupting smolt navigation, I thought it was MAGNETIC fields the fish were using, same as your compass. This field is quite different than the electric fields from power lines.

With respect to dams and their impact on fisheries, the Army Corp of Engineers has been keeping dam passage records for over 60 years. These records indicate that the last couple years have had more fish pass by than all other years, and these previous years include the time periods when the Snake River Dams, McNary, John Day, the Dalles, and other dams did not even exist!!!!!

What the counts do not show is what happened in the early statehood years (ie, pre 1938) when all those ugly pilings you see all up and down the Columbia had large canneries sitting on top of them.