When it became clear that soldiers would be subjected to multiple tours of duty in hostile territory, the clock began to tick on when the first atrocities would be committed.

For how long can you put a person in harms way before ethics, and morals become so much less important then self preservation? At what point does shooting a 3 year old toddler in the head become acceptable?

When we as a country allow and expect soldiers to involve themselves in combat for longer periods of time then were involved in WWII, when we send them for repeated tours of duty in those combat areas, and when there is no end in sight, should we really be surprised that we risk creating soldiers with the souls of monsters?

It does not matter what crimes 'the other side' has committed. It matters what we have allowed ourselves to become. Innocence is an expected casualty of war, but Honor is not. And shooting children in the head has no excuse, none.

By supporting the politics that has put us into a war without end, we all are responsible for these crimes.




VHAWK





Oregonian,

A country that takes on your attitude is the same one that could build a whole industry on the death of civilians. The Third Reich was not a historical anomaly. It happens when people such as you excuse inhumanity because it is convenient.
Don’t deal in the moral equivalent of Zyklon-B.

Similar subjects come up on some political BB's fairly regularly, and the hawks don't seem to mind the contradiction inherent in firmly believing we are in Iraq to remove those who would do evil acts, and then justify our own evil acts because of the enemy's actions.

Are we better than them...or not?

If we are (the justification for being there), then does it make sense to in any way justify immoral behavior on our part with the actions of those who we condemn?

If we're not, then why are we there?

Fish on...

Todd

Man, pretty ugly subject, but here goes.

It's definately wrong what those soldiers did, that day. Definately not the end of it either.

With that aside, I can't entirely blame them for what happened. War must be hell, I've never been there, but plenty of folks in my family have been through WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Gulf 1 and I have never heard anyone ever claim war was a good thing, no matter what the end was. I also have a friend who worked for a military contractor over there, and they have some of the same horrible stories that I heard about Vietnam, a striking parallel to Vietnam. We train our soldiers to be the world's most effective killers in battle, then expect them to differentiate between civilians and unidentified militia, and then to come home after the killing ends and live a "normal" life. I feel for the men who are put in this position, but at the same time our administration over extends them, doesn't support them on many levels and then all the while pretend that they have all they need and the cause is justified. I don't think our soldiers are monsters, but certainly affected and somewhat forgotten about by the powers that brought them there to begin with. It'll be interesting when they return to the US and try to re-integrate themelves into society. Definately more to come,that's an under-statement, I think we'll be seeing some atrocities for years to come, abroad and at home.

Perhaps if a few of the folks making war decisions had any concept of what war was like we may have a different situation in Iraq.

Rather than spending all their time disparaging the reputations of various combat experienced legislators, they ought to be actually listening to what they have to say.

Fish on...

Todd

The real test of values, is holding on to them when doing so endangers your job, your well-being, and your life. With that said, the soldiers that pulled the triggers have some responsibility.

My Lai was stopped by a 24-year-old pilot, Warrant Officer Hugh Thompson Junior. It would have taken only one noncommissioned officer to stop what happened. There are alot of very quality NCO's out there who by example have represented our country in the highest possible sense. Having a professional corp of NCO's has probably kept us out of trouble for this long. I wonder where this units leadership was while the murders of civilians was occuring.

It is painful to write this. It does not take alot of imagination to put oneself in the boots of those young men. It is painful to consider what they have given up. That they should give this country years of their youth, place themselves in constant danger, to the point the stresses finally cause them to slid into an insanity of sorts. The pain from the fires that burn in their hearts from the loss of friends so young.


Innocence carries no burdens, but the knowledge of evil taught over the scent of burnt powder carries with it a weight that we should never place on the shoulders of our bravest youth except as our last resort. And although I feel we cannot lay those soldiers blameless, neither can responsibility be shrugged off by those who have placed them in that hell that makes no angels.

And as long as we leave our troops there, I am afraid there will be more if this to come.


VHawk.

Our people are there in harm's way. No point in agrguing about how that happened at this point. Also true is the fact that we cannot cut and run.
One of our philosophical fallacies that we seem to be stuck on is that we are better than them. Not so, just different. If we give equal weight on the nobility scale, or the humanity scale or the religious scale, or in whatever manner you choose to measure, a value, we come up the same. Our traditions say otherwise, but some traditions are built on smoke. Just ask the tribes about our 'good guy status.'
It appears that some Marines did murder some civilians. They should be punished. The officers that let it happen or that could have stopped it should also be punished. Commissioned or non-comissioned. No favor.
Trouble is, it is really about us and them at that level, and sometimes it is better to kill than be killed. It is hard to fathom that some or our guys would do something like that. But it appears to have happened and it is probably no the first time. Hopefully it will be the last but I have little faith in the matter.

An aside; how many of you have broken up a dog fight and gotten bit in the process? A dog that would never bite you in a one on one basis will sometimes get a piece of you in the heat of the fracas. I deal with Siberian Huskies often and I have been bit in the heat of battle. Goes with the territory and it is more a matter of a piece of me being in the right place at the wrong time.
No parallel here. Just curious.

When it comes to the soldiers on the ground in an actual fracas, "kill or be killed" is going to be the order of the day, with good reason.

Just being soldiers on the ground in Iraq, however, does not automatically make the context of every encounter with a non-American "kill or be killed".

When it is you with guns, and them being unarmed civilians, including women and children, "kill or be killed" is not at play...act like a human, or act like the barbarians we are presumptively there to kill is the context.

"Act like a human" is the preferred alternative in that context.

We all know that removing barbarians is well down the list of reasons why we are there, but at least presumptively it is the reason given by Dumbya and his chickenhawk minions, so they, at least, ought to make sure that we don't act like the barbarians we are purportedly removing.

Fish on...

Todd

AuntyM,

I cannot imagine a circumstance in which shooting a 3 year old in the head at CLOSE RANGE is acceptable. Res ipsa loquitur

This is a tragedy all the way around. I will hazard a guess that during the course of the slaughter that individuals who were responsible for the death of the Marine were killed. It still doesn't make acceptable shooting 9 year olds in the face as they cower under their beds.

I've heard excuses made on the radio for these soldiers; people who have tried to say that in the heat of battle almost anything is excusable. It troubles me to no end.

There is no cause that excuses the behavior, if it is true.

Unless, of course, you believe that child rapists should be released because when they were six they had a kindergarten teacher who called them a "girly boy" once, which lead to their later criminal life.

t.i.c., for sure, but seriously, there is no excuse for death squad executions of unarmed civilians...especially women and children, but the adult males, too.

Fish on...

Todd

I've already commented that I would give the benefit of the doubt to our boys, and it would take very strong evidence of atrocious behavior to get me behind any movement to punish a man for what he does in combat....with that said, I would like to know where to find whatever info is available on this particular incident, anybody have a link to a supposedly reliable source ?


Also, I would like to point out that in the past we as a Country have faced enemies who were well aware of our tremendous value on human life, and have used it against us in combat......it would surprize me none to learn that such things were a factor in this incident. It seems to take very little to get our own media to side with our enemies, even if for appearantly good reasons........does anyone here doubt the bad guys ability to utilize the media ?

I guess I'm saying if our boys just walked in a house and ate dinner with the people and then got up and shot them each in the face, sure that's a war crime at the least, but if they charged into a house in pursuit of known bad guys, and ended up shooting the place up with no survivors, I don't see how anybody half way around the planet can utter a peep in protest, it's not like the badguys are worried about colateral damage......

"it's not like the badguys are worried about colateral damage...... "

And that matters absolutely none. Remember, we are there on the pretense at least of removing barbarians...if we go there and act like barbarians, then it is status quo with lots of dead people.

If we're better, then we have to act like it.

I don't know if there is any public "reliable source" at this point...but at least from what is in the media, this was not a case of hot pursuit with collateral damage...this was a death squad type execution of unarmed civilians.

Fish on...

Todd

Thats the same impression I have.


The shootings did not occur during a firefight. And if they did there is still no circumstance whereby the shooting in the face of unarmed young children is excusable.


Oregonian, so what is our mission? To win the trust of Iraqis and stabilze the country? If the US military loses its credibility with the Iraqi citizenry then it will lose this war. And if we lose this was this incident will be part of that defeat. You can't win Iraqi hearts and minds by indiscriminately separating them from their bodies and souls.

If our mission is to run up a body count, then I suppose this is Mission Accomplished.

My apologies to all servicemen who have been unfairly tarnished by this incident. Even in a war that we should never have been involved in, individuals can still make a positive difference in the lives of Iraqis. There are alot of stories of good soldiers who have made the best of a FUBAR situation.


web page

By Jim Miklaszewski
and Mike Viqueira
NBC News


WASHINGTON - A Pentagon probe into the death of Iraqi civilians last November in the Iraqi city of Haditha will show that U.S. Marines "killed innocent civilians in cold blood," a U.S. lawmaker said Wednesday.

From the beginning, Iraqis in the town of Haditha said U.S. Marines deliberately killed 15 unarmed Iraqi civilians, including seven women and three children.

One young Iraqi girl said the Marines killed six members of her family, including her parents. “The Americans came into the room where my father was praying,” she said, “and shot him.”


On Wednesday, Rep. John Murtha, D-Pa., said the accounts are true.

Military officials told NBC News that the Marine Corps' own evidence appears to show Murtha is right.

A videotape taken by an Iraqi showed the aftermath of the alleged attack: a blood-smeared bedroom floor and bits of what appear to be human flesh and bullet holes on the walls.

The video, obtained by Time magazine, was broadcast a day after town residents told The Associated Press that American troops entered homes on Nov. 19 and shot dead 15 members of two families, including a 3-year-old girl, after a roadside bomb killed a U.S. Marine.

On Nov. 20, U.S. Marines spokesman Capt. Jeffrey Pool issued a statement saying that on the previous day a roadside bomb had killed 15 civilians and a Marine. In a later gunbattle, U.S. and Iraqi troops killed eight insurgents, he said.

U.S. military officials later confirmed that the version of events was wrong.

Murtha, a vocal opponent of the war in Iraq, said at a news conference Wednesday that sources within the military have told him that an internal investigation will show that "there was no firefight, there was no IED (improvised explosive device) that killed these innocent people. Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them, and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood."

Military officials say Marine Corp photos taken immediately after the incident show many of the victims were shot at close range, in the head and chest, execution-style. One photo shows a mother and young child bent over on the floor as if in prayer, shot dead, said the officials, who spoke to NBC News on condition of anonymity because the investigation hasn't been completed.

One military official says it appears the civilians were deliberately killed by the Marines, who were outraged at the death of their fellow Marine.

“This one is ugly," one official told NBC News.

Three Marine officers — commanders in Haditha — have been relieved of duty, and at least 12 Marines in all are under investigation for what would be the worst single incident involving the deliberate killing of civilians by U.S. military in Iraq.

The Marine Corps issued a statement in response to Murtha's remarks:

"There is an ongoing investigation; therefore, any comment at this time would be inappropriate and could undermine the investigatory and possible legal process. As soon as the facts are known and decisions on future actions are made, we will make that information available to the public to the fullest extent allowable."

Murtha held the news conference to mark six months since his initial call for "redeployment" of U.S. forces from Iraq.

He said U.S. forces were under undue pressure in Iraq because of poor planning and allocation of resources by the Bush administration.

The Associated Press and Reuters contributed to this report.

Fricken NBC has obviously aligned themselves with the insurgents!!!!

Couldn't you find a MORE reliable source????



I can't wait to see Catie Couric flaunting her AK on the morning show...

Todd,
I'm not going to use this exact incident, but a hypothetical one.....

If a few bad guys attack a small U.S. force, kill and wound a few, then run into a house and kill a civilian or two and take the rest of the occupants hostage, and continue to kill our boys either by direct rifle fire, explosives, or via radio/cell phone, then our boys need to neutralize that threat immediatly, and the remaining civilian deaths go in the "killed by insurgents/terrorists" colum...colateral damage. When you start seeing our boys using Iraqi civilians for a shield, then you can compare their behavior to that of the barbarians.....
If you expect our boys to survive in an absolutely hostile enviroment then they are going to have to have some latitude, if you have our boys behaving in a manner that will guarantee zero civilians deaths, then you have handed the trump card to the barbarians, because it would not take a genious to take those rules of engagement and shove them down the throats of some fine young Americans trying to do the impossible for the unknowing...........

BTW, I've said it before, I DO value every human life, but I have enough sense to know the difference between reality and fantasy, the reality of war is that the whole damn thing is horrible and should be avoidable, but I'll not hold our boys personaly responsible for the position we as a people put them in, I am sorry they have to be there, and I hope they do their job well and get their a$$e$ home in one piece. The idea of our Country picking a few guys out to punish for the media's glory for possibly acting one tenth of a second to quick when three tenths of a second would probably be to late is too much B. S. for me. With todays standards what do you think WWII would be like, you prefer Japanese or German, it's not like they are dropping 1000's of incendary bombs, or atomic bombs on civilians you know....................

Are you making up situations because you don't want to adress THIS situation?

I am making up situations because none of us has access to the facts on "this" situation, and I am man enough to recognize that fact.

Good Lord, have any of you guys ever heard of propaganda ?

I'm sure NBC told you Bush won the election, but you don't believe that, why is NBC golden now ?

Ok hypothetical, lets say they weren't really in the house, but instead were at church choir practice. And insurgents dressed up as Marines actually did the killing. We could make up distracting hypotheticals like that all day. ...I think Dan already said it perfectly.


Oregonian you sure don't have any trouble stretching thin your premises. I'm still not hearing you address anything directly related to this incident. And who said anything about "zero civilians deaths"?

Your best response would be "Man this is terrible if it is true. I don't know enough to be able to make an informed statement other then I feel badly for those soldiers, and any innocents that were killed. " Leave it at that. Nothing political about making a statement like that. It reveals some humanity. Have a cup or two, its good for your soul.

Maybe you missed the part where I said if it is absolutely proven that atrocities have been comitted in cold blood, then that is one thing, but he said she said isn't going to sway me from backing our boys, shame on anyone who says one word against our boys without ironclad proof of intensional avoidable crimes..........

Somewhere there is a mom and a dad for each of those boys, possibly reading this site, if you have a kid or a clue that is enough to keep your trap shut until there is just zero doubt left.

Supporting our troops is more than a bumper sticker......