We can trade hypotheticals 'til the cows come home, but there are things you do, and things you don't.

Republican sympathizers who typically see things in stark black and white (i.e., "we're right, you're wrong") should be called on it right here and now if all of a sudden they find the "gray areas" they are so quick to call "unprincipled" when in the hands of liberals to be attractive places to excuse reprehensible behavior.

They hypocrisy is going to ooze out of this one from the far right...

Fish on...

Todd

Oregonian,

Your a Holocaust revisionist aren't you? No evidence will ever be good enough. Maybe we are all a figment of your imagination.

So what part of the evidence is lacking? Pictures? We have them.

Eyewitness accounts from both sides? Those are available as well.

Bodies with holes in them? Those are available as well.

Motive? Plenty.

Even if there was video it wouldn't be enough.

At the risk of being repetitive, I'll say it again, but in different words...

The pretext for us being in Iraq is to remove an evil dictator who has not followed the "rules of engagement"...but instead has used his power to subvert those who are weaker and under his control.

How in God's name are the Iraqi people better off if we invade their country and then do the exact same thing, justifying it by saying "that's what our enemy does"?

We all know that the Administration's public reasons for invading Iraq are mere pretenses...not worth the paper they are written on...but in the interests of keeping up the sham, ought they not have one bit of tolerance for anything that makes us look like Saddam's death squads?

Ought not Dumbya's supporters show the same zero tolerance? If they are actually buying into the pretense, then it ought to be a no brainer to have zero tolerance. If they don't buy the pretense, but support the other reasons we are actually there, doesn't it still make sense to have zero tolerance to at least keep the pretense viable?

Fish on...

Todd

When the chips are done falling I'd rather admit to you all that you were right to doubt our boys in favor of the media, than to be you admitting to our boys that you were wrong for calling them murderers when in fact they were just doing the job you and I sent them there to do......


As a reality check why don't you take a long walk around the worst part of Tacoma in a nice dress suit for a few hours in the middle of the night with a legally registered handgun in your pocket, use it to defend your life only...........remember you will have to prove to the world that you were in danger before you fired.........is it possible that by the time you can be absolutely sure(and have proof) you would already be dead ?

Now go try it in a foriegn country where you don't speak the language and there isn't any law against "them" killing you, only against you killing them........

I would like to see the eye witness accounts from both sides, if indeed there is complete agreement, then this topic would not be debatable.....


As long as NBC or any other media for profit is the messenger, the message will be suspect.....

We have ALL seen the media screw the pooch for and against every cause out there........

"Military officials told NBC News that the Marine Corps' own evidence appears to show Murtha is right."

"sources within the military have told him that an internal investigation will show that "there was no firefight, there was no IED (improvised explosive device) that killed these innocent people. Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them, and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood."

"Military officials say Marine Corp photos taken immediately after the incident show many of the victims were shot at close range, in the head and chest, execution-style."

"One military official says it appears the civilians were deliberately killed by the Marines, who were outraged at the death of their fellow Marine."

Oregonian, these are military officials speaking, not op/ed's from moveon.org. It's hard to pin this one on the "liberal media"...they are direct quotes of people who are in a position to know the truth.

Fish on...

Todd

<quote>
Murtha, a vocal opponent of the war in Iraq, said at a news conference Wednesday
<quote>


<quote>
"There is an ongoing investigation; therefore, any comment at this time would be inappropriate and could undermine the investigatory and possible legal process. As soon as the facts are known and decisions on future actions are made, we will make that information available to the public to the fullest extent allowable."
<quote>


Seems pretty far from cut and dried to me, please tell me there is a LOT more info available to be accusing our boys of murder on ..........

So are you saying our boys killed their own man in order to have a flimsy excuse to sight in their rifle on civilians, or maybe he died of old age and our boys took advantage of the situation to sight in their rifles on civilians ?


If that guy did just trip an IED that only killed one American, and the rest of the squad was coming through the front door, I don't doubt that he was praying !

I say if you can't stand up for the boys doing the dirty work on our behalf, then at least stay quiet until the doubt is gone, it wouldn't surprize me if a career minded higher officer would sell them out to protect his own career...

No. No. And no. I won't stay quiet when the dirty work involves atrocities committed by armed forces from my country. It is when common people begin to accept the works of hell as normal, that we assign for ourselves a place in history among the dishonored.

And although it is not directly related to the topic, you've used the idea that liberals don't support our armed forces. My idea of supporting the troops is so far different then yours Oregonian. Lip service to our men in combat is your idea of "supporting the troops".

Say nothing bad of them, they are harms way for our sake. I say BULL.

For them that perform with honor and valor I say spread the word of their deeds far and wide, for those that do not, then let them have their proper rewards based on their actions.

I put on a bumpersticker...look at me I am a patriot. I say BULL.

Give them real support. Make sure they have proper and adequate counseling when they get home. Make sure that their kids are taken care of while they are gone. That adequate childcare is available. That their wives have a support system. Make sure that getting healthcare after they return home is not another combat operation. Make sure that they are paid handsomely for their service. Encourage and support their quest for higher education.

Soldiers are people who have the same concerns for family just like any good person. Support them by helping take care of the people they worry about. And provide for them whatever they need when they return so that they are succesful in their pursuit of happiness.

Simple people Put American Troops in harms way, and then applaud them from 10,000 miles away and call it supporting our troops.

I say BULL.

I'll side with you and cheer at their hanging AFTER EVERY REASONABLE DOUBT AS TO THEIR GUILT HAS BEEN REMOVED. You may have heard the phrase," innocent until PROOVEN guilty", I don't think NBC is the place to get the green light to start looking for a rope...


THIS quote is from the article you quoted above;

"There is an ongoing investigation; therefore, any comment at this time would be inappropriate and could undermine the investigatory and possible legal process. As soon as the facts are known and decisions on future actions are made, we will make that information available to the public to the fullest extent allowable."


If you want to lead a lynchmob with that as part of your evidence, lead on !

Why do you hate America so much Oregonian that you would allow death squads to run rampant in the name of Freedom , and disparage the finest tradtions of the United States?

And why would you cheer at anybodies hanging? Thats the kind of indifference to life that lead to this atrocity.

What lynchmob are you referring to? The one that's going to hang your sense of morality? Its too late for that, apparently its already dead.

I've listened to enough Limbaugh, and O'Reilly to keep up with your bloated overstatements, mistatements, and misdirection. Your tired cliches are as inviting as the worn out lycra from a fat mans bike shorts. When your ready for some honest discussion, take a little more time with your posts. No need to rush things, this isn't sex.

The lynchmob I refered to is you and others rushing to convict these guys before the investigation is over, which as AuntyM said, is indeed looking grim at this point...

When I said I would cheer at their hanging, that was a figure of speech to illustrate my point that I also think if indeed they are guilty, then punishment needs to meet the crime....I did not literally mean that I would cheer at a real hanging, I assume you understood all of this on the first pass and are just trying to come up with a reply without agreeing with anything I said.

At no point did I say nor imply that there should be "death squads running rampant in the name of freedom", nor anything even close to that, did you pull that whole sentence out of left field as another distraction or what ?

If these guys are as guilty as you think, then I will be just as disapointed with them and the whole situation as you, but like I said over and over, I'll wait for the proof before I say a word against our boys.

Get the chip off your block VHawk, I'm not interested in picking on you personly, nor vica-versa.........

Oregonian,

Expect to take some heat when your defending the troops that have given us an Iraqi My Lai. As more news organizations investigate and reveal more about this, it is getting uglier, not better.


Don't give up your duties as a citizen to question what it is your armed forces are doing. If the matter had not been pressed it would have stayed convienently buried. Sen Murtha took some heat for keeping the pressure up on the Pentagon.

When I cease being indignant at those who would in the smallest way facilitate such evil; by excusing it as a normal part of war, by excusing it because you don't want to hurt morale, by excusing it because you thought the army would do a fine job investigating itself, by excusing it because you just don't want to believe it happened so therefore it didn't, then I wouldn't be a very good liberal would I?

Consider this, just as Muslims should have been universally horrified at the atrocities committed on 9/11 in the name of protecting Islam (and they were not), we should be universally horrified at the crimes committed in the name of protecting America.

I'm leaving the chip right where it is.


VHawk

Vince,

I thought you were in OR on the lower Big C tribs today doing some scouting. Did the rain change the plans?

I was going to head to SW WA this morning, but I've been sicker than the proverbial dog since Wednesday morning.

Apologies for thread drift.

My thought is that in any conflict involving guerilla warfare, like with an insurgency, atrocities by both sides are nearly a given. This could have been anticipated. You put good soldiers in this kind of situation, and some will crack and do the unthinkable. Mai Lai is perhaps the best known example from Vietnam, but there were numerous unreported smaller incidents. I suspect that the stress associated with these kinds of patrols contributes to bringing out the very worst in human behavior. I'm not excusing the behavior, but trying only to explain and understand why it happens.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

"America is great because America is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, America will cease to be great." Alexis de Tocqueville

Get well Salmo g. I want you at your scintillating best.
That said by a unscrupulous filamentarian anarchist.

Salmo,


Your explanation is right on. And because it was predictable, the politicians who put those soldiers in that situation are also responsible. I think its spelled My Lai, just for trivias sake. I had to look up the spelling in Wikipedia the first time I wrote it. You probably were thinking of the delicious Mai Tai, which is far more palatable then war crimes.


I am heading to places south in the early morning. But the official scouting trip isn't until next weekend.

VHawk

Vince,

As a junior high class spelling champ (no kiddin') it hurts to see that the older I get, my spelling skills are degrading as rapidly as my short term memory. I don't know Mai Tai, but I learned to appreciate margaritas last winter in Mexico.

Yes, the politicians who send healthy young Americans in their stead to empire build or anything else, share heavily in the responsibility for what transpires. No rational person would put soldiers in that kind of situation and not expect to have incidents like this occur.

Good luck tomorrow. And if you're bound for where I think, shoot me a trip report afterwards. I guess I'm fishing vicariously this weekend. Ouch!

Sard,

Thanks for the good wishes, you filamentarian, you.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

A marine's response:

http://www.michaelyon-online.com/flf/article.php?ID=29

I read it Sard, and it comes from the same place as my thinking. The only real dilemna is what to do with the people who pulled the triggers. What is an appropriate punishment for a soldier who has committed murder, but has done so because he was young and exposed to constant life threatening stresses?

Something horrible happened. An inexcusable crime. But what to do about it? I don't know the answer to that. My thoughts fail me.