Ditto what Eddie said.

There is an old saying that goes, "Everything after "but" is BS.

Did it ever occur that quite possibly a soldier believes in what he/she is doing? I doubt that they want anything more than to feel proud and appreciated. They stepped up and regardless the outcome, I owe them much.

Slab are you trying to say that its BS that I don't have any appreciation or respect for the sacrifices that are being made daily? That only by putting on my blindfold and waving yellow ribbons off some freaking bridge will I be a good patriot?

No, my little speech always includes the part where I mention I didn't think it was such a hot idea to play in that particular sandbox. Do you know why? Because alot of them have never had the chance to hear it face to face from someone who considers themselves a liberal. They shouldn't live with the impression that half the country doesn't appreciate what they have done. That just because liberals think the war was a mistake, doesn't mean we aren't thankful that there are people who will answer the call to serve their country regardless.

BUT, that doesn't mean I don't respect your "Old Saying".

Hi Vhawk, I know this is kinda late in sequence, but your comment on the 24th about the allegedly biased info on Military.com is questionable at best. Please tell me your approved source for 'unbiased news.' I will gladly compare its'list against Mil'.com for my own purposes at least. I personally believe it is nearly impossible to find an unbiased news source in this day and age. All the players have their own axe to grind. If you happen to agree with their list then you say to yourself "... ahh a reliable unbiased source." Self-delusional at best.
I took a journalism course years ago and at that time there were two sources that were considered unbiased by the bunch rinning the syllabus. They were; The Christian Science Monitor and the Wall Street Journal. Both, I'm sure, suspect today.
And then we have the New York Times, The Washington Post and that rag in L.A. What a contrast.

Sard,

You have a very good point. It was the same point I tried to make and failed. Here is a quote from that same post on 6/24.

And the Christian Science Monitor is still a great source. Which is odd, because without the "Monitor" part, Christian Science is an oxymoron.

And I'll troll that one reallll slooow. Nibble, nibble is that a bite?

Here let me save some of you some typing; I must hate America, little baby Jesus, puppy dogs, and ice cream.

(That was a joke for you sarcastically challenged)

I hope that next to last sentence was bait for some kinda fish other than this one. That particular line is shop worn and obviously so inaccurate as to be silly. Not to say you won't get any nibbles. A strip of beer can with a hook on one end and split ring to tie to on the other will catch fish. Just use a leader that can handle a brush with the can.
I'm glad the --Monitor is still sustaining their reputation. The only outrage that should arouse will likely come from the "moderate" Muslims.

Lemme give my 2 cents since I am one of those that "just can't keep his mouth shut" types...as well as one that ties his desert boots on every day now for over 10 years:

The credit goes to those in the ring...and as I see that most of the board here supports the military, that is what us Soldiers truly appreciate in life, at least from my observed opinion.

I cannot, nor will I ever support the murder of the innocent, even in the perils and chaos of war. Now that being said...let us not fully judge those for whom this topic has been started. Let that be done by their peers...fellow Soldiers. Then, when put on trial and all is said and done...it is done.

There are far better stories of success going on across the military, for which is worth your time to comment on...more so than this topic. I have to say that there are more words and opinions thrown out here by those that do not wear the uniform than most Soldiers that I have served with collectively. WE (the Soldiers) really DON'T talk about it that much.

But know this...we have the right to 4+ pages of comments because of those in uniform. Respect that please...and thank a Soldier for his/her service whenever available. You can't truly imagine what an honor it is to have you do that....makes the sacrifice well worth it. God bless America and the United States Military.

SSG Justin Fordice (haverodwill fish)
2006 Fort Lewis and I Corps NCO of the Year

You have a seat in my boat anytime Sarg.....just let me know. And by the way, Thanks.

"Did it ever occur that quite possibly a soldier believes in what he/she is doing? I doubt that they want anything more than to feel proud and appreciated. They stepped up and regardless the outcome, I owe them much."

Thank YOU Slab!!!

HaveRodwillfish,

This is a very difficult subject to write about. Its especially difficult because many people automatically assume that lack of support for going to war equals lack of support for our troops in combat. More importantly, is that professional soldiers such as yourself, will take this debate as a criticism of the work you do for your country. Whether you knew it or not, I was very aware of the constant contact you kept on the phone with your subordinates that were on duty, mind half on the fishing, and the other half still "on-duty". I am sorry for any unintended offense.

However, I think you missed the point of the original post. It was not to smear our Armed Forces. It was to point out no one should be surprised when more 'Haditha' type incidents start popping up in the news. Until we start building armies out of robots, we will see the effects of combat stress get worse the longer our men are under constant threat of fire.

Indirectly, that leads to a criticism of top leadership for not having a solid plan in place prior to the start of hostilities.

Lastly, our uniformed military do talk about the war and the experience of combat. I've read more military blogs in the last 2 years than I could ever recall. And the forums on military.com are very active. In fact I think I prefer them, because there isn't a need to prove ones support of the military prior to exressing ones own opinion.


So here is the question now for you SSG Justin Fordice, and for everyone else. How does the public express its discontent with its government waging war, without alienating and offending the professional soldiers who are ordered to prosecute that war?


BTW congrats on winning the NCO of the year award, thats freakin huge. I would get an aneurysm putting in that kind of work 24/7 and still have a family. I've sent you back a response to your IM when u get a chance.

VHawk

Sarge, you an all those like you have all our sixes. Thank you for it. There are not enough words at my command to say it properly so I'll let it go at that.
And how is Hart's Lake Prairie this summer? Been there, done that, tank company, 161st inf Reg.

V....you may want to consider voicing your displeasures in a conversation not including the one where you just say, "Thanks", nor with the one whom you are thanking. "Thanks" needs to not have attached to it any qualification(s). "Thanks" is not a political podium.

Slab you might want to consider staying on topic. The whole wave the flag and strike up the band argument is a red herring. The thread is titled "Haditha, more to come", and not "Lets thank the military". This thread is concerning what should be expected to come when normal people are under constant, and repeated combat stresses, for extended tours of duty. This thread has nothing to do with whether I've ever put on a uniform. It has everything to do with taking the time to consider the lifelong impact on the psyche that combat veterans will endure as part of the price of going to war.

Slab you've never directly answered any of the questions I've brought up. Your response was always a blind appeal to emotion that in a way should be far more offensive then me pointing out that guys are going to start mentally cracking and doing some very bad things.

If nobody dissented against the war regardless of their true feelings, if we all just waved our little plastic flags and stopped asking "Is this the right war? Is this worth the price of the blood of our sons and daughters?" would that be the kind of patriot our founding fathers would have wanted?

Slab, start another thread just so we can all give our thanks. And as soon as I see it, I'll be right in there saying a genuine thanks. But on this thread I'd really like to see your answer to my last open question:

How does the public express its discontent with its government waging war, without alienating and offending the professional soldiers who are ordered to prosecute that war?

Geez Vince,....hard as I tried, I couldn't resist the bait. I swam by the offering several times, swatted at it a time or two, followed it all the way to shore before spooking........ and then I came back days later and bit anyway.... As hard as I tried, I just could help it. you trolled it by so nicely.... Let me take a crack at replying to your lure. Lest we forget what the lure was, here it is:

QUOTE: And the Christian Science Monitor is still a great source. Which is odd, because without the "Monitor" part, Christian Science is an oxymoron.

And I'll troll that one reallll slooow. Nibble, nibble is that a bite?

So, here I go....

Many of the most influential scientists in all of history have been good old fashioned Bible-believing Christians. That doesn't prove Christianity, but I do think that it's unfair to label Christains as non-scientific. Examples:

JOHANN KEPLER - The founder of physical astronomy, discovered the laws of planetary motion, proved heliocentricity of the solar sytstem, built the first ephemeris tables for tracking star motion, etc. Kepler also studied seminary, and coined the term that he was merely "Thinking God's thoughts after him." A quote from one of Kepler's books: "Since we astronomers are priests of the highest God in regard to the book of nature, it befits us to be thoughtful, not of the glory of our minds, but rather, above all else, of the glory of God."

FRANCIS BACON - Primary person responsible for the formulation and establishment of the "Scientific Method", among other achievements. A quote from his diary: "There are two books laid before us to study, to prevent our falling into error; first, the volume of the scriptures, which reveal the will of God; then the volume of the creatures, which express His power."

BLAISE PASCAL - The founder of hydrostatics, and a cofounder of hydrodynamics. First deriver of differential calculus principals. Invented the barometer, etc. Also wrote Calvinistic papers defending his faith.

ROBERT BOYLE - The founder of modern chemistry. The basic gas law in Chemistry is..... Boyle's Law. Lots of accomplishments in physics and chemistry. Yet he was very active in Christian missionary work, including Bible translation into new languages.

ISAAC NEWTON - Discovered gravity.... Ok, discovered the Law of Universal Gravitation, the three laws of motion, dynamics, developed the particle theory of light propagation, etc. , etc.
However, with all of that, he had time to write many books on biblical subjects, which profess his own belief in God. He even wrote papers refuting atheism and defending creaion and the Bible.

MICHAEL FARADAY - Certainly one of the greatest physicists of all time. He developed the sciences of electricity and magnetism, discovered electromagnetic induction, invented the generator, etc. Oh yeah, and he was a very public believer in the God of the Bible.

JOHN DALTON - The father of modern atomic theory. Had numerous important inventions and discoveries. A practicing believer his entire adulthood.

WILLIAM PROUT - As a physiologist, he was first to identify basic foodstuffs such as fats, protiens, carbohydrates, etc. As a chemist, he was first to discover that atomic weights of elements could be identified as a series of relative whole numbers. And an outspoken believer in the Bible.

SAMUEL MORSE - Invented the telegraph. The first message he sent was: "What hath God Wrought!" (Numbers 23:23). He invented lots of other cool stuff, too. A couple of years before his death, he wrote: "The nearer I approach to the end of my pilgrimage, the clearer is the evidence of the divine origin of the Bible, the grandeur and sublimity of God's remedy for fallen man are more appreciated, and the future is illuminated with hope and joy."

JOSEPH HENRY - The elctronically inclined will recognize the last name (the Henry is the unit of measure of inductance). He discovered self-induction, invented the electric motor and the galvanometer, plus a bunch of other stuff. And he made it a regular practice to stop and pray to God to ask for divine guidance at important junctures of his experiments.

MATTHEW MAURY - The founder of modern hydrography and oceanography. Psalm 8 is inscribed on his tombstone (his request).

LOUIS PASTEUR - Established Germ Theory. did the leading work on Bacteriology, developed vaccines for rabies, dyptheria, anthrax, and more. Developed the processes of pasteurization and sterilization. Arguably the greatest biologist of all time. But, in his own lifetime, he was ridiculed by most of the biological establishment for his staunch opposition to Darwin and his defense of Christianity. He obviously believed in God, as affirmed in his personal writings.

WILLIAM THOMPSON, LORD KELVIN - Numerous contributions in physics and mathematics. He established the scale of absolute temperature (degrees Kelvin). He also established thermodynamics as a formal scientific discipline. Yet another Bible-believing Christian.

JOSPEH LISTER - a surgeon who contributed greatly to the development of antiseptic surgery through the use of chemical disinfectants (where would we be without Listerine???). He publicly expressed his belief in the fundamental doctrines of Christianity more than once.

There are lots more, imcluding some from the very recent past like: George Washington Carver, Werner Von Braun, and others.

Now, I know some seriously excellent researchers who don't believe in God. But, I also know some excellent one's who do. I just don't think it's fair or accurate to paint us poor, old Bible believin' types as nonscientific idiots.

I really enjoy your posts on the fishing sites. Thanks for passing good info.

Til next time: May the Lord bless you and keep you, may he make his face to shine upon you and give you peace!... or, you can just substitute: "See you next time".javascript:void(0)
Wink

Shucks, Fisherdan, we're all smarter than them guys. Perhaps at another time in another thread I'll share with you how I came to believe. It's much akin to your post and my response. Thanks for the reminder.

You didn't mention my favorite... Einstein.

VHawk: "How does the public express its discontent with its government waging war, without alienating and offending the professional soldiers who are ordered to prosecute that war?"

V-I totally got the topic and am not whatsoever offended by what's written here. A lot of good conversation, some controversy, some solid jabs. I saw them all. Truly though, none of it bothers me. At this point, I am oblivious to opinions that aren't my own, but still read them so as to further educate myself on what others think about the War, and those waging it. I stand by my commander, legitimately, not just because it's my duty. Speaking of duty, which is one of Seven Army Values: Loyalty, Duty, Respect, Selfless Service, Honor, Integrity, and Personal Courage (LDRSHIP). Loyalty, if I had to choose one, in my opinion is first for a reason, it is the most important. I don't choose one, because they are all equally important. I live these 24/7/365. Honor is the duty in question here, and I emphatically display my displeasure in knowing that those Soldiers (Marines) may have violated that, and other personal and Army Values.

"...no one should be surprised when more 'Haditha' type incidents start popping up in the news. Until we start building armies out of robots, we will see the effects of combat stress get worse the longer our men are under constant threat of fire."

Totally agreed. No robot here, or anywhere else. War or not...there are monsters out there out of uniform as well. (Green River Killer) Look at the case of the Soldier returning home to Fort Lewis who killed his young wife not too long ago. I point out both civilian and military incidents to shed light on the fact that it's MAN that's committing the crimes. MAN, not ROBOT. I agree with you Vince. It's horrible.

Sardo: "Been there, done that, tank company, 161st inf Reg."

Thank You Sardo. Hart's Lake Prarie is same as it ever was...I think your Sherman tank tracks are still there. HA HA!!!!! I got the historical time frame correct, right? HA!!!

Great topic. I am always interested in all the opinions of the Military, though I don't agree with all of them. Again, my right, given to me by my forefathers who wore a uniform. Thank you all, and for crying out loud...can we all just

SHUT UP AND FISH!!!!!!!!!!

Vince...one more thing...the Soldiers that you and your girlfriend see ARE truly in need of some emotional support and possibly medical treatment. I am sure you or her hear them talk about the war. What you read in the forums and you HEAR someone say could be totally different. You were with me in the boat on the Cowlitz that day and know that I personally don't talk about the War too much. I would much rather, as you witnessed, talk about the things my "Professional Warriors" do well. I am a Leader in this great Army, and what some will call "blind following", I call Duty and Selfless Service, and all the other Army Values listed in one of my above posts. You will hear me talk about fishing a hunting far more that War. Ask me about my Soldiers sometime...I will tell you far more about them, then you have time for. These men and women are great. They act badly at times, but great all the same.

What I meant is: My Soldier's don't really talk about the War that much is meant in an "speaking for oneself" standpoint, meaning that, MY Soldiers don't talk about it the way that civilians do, like here in this forum. You have read just about as much of an opinion as I have on the War written above. I do my duty, proudly, daily. I have lived, will live, and will die a proud Soldier, through this war and probably more. My opinion is this: I love this country and my profession is that which requires me to provide my life for the defense of it's ideals. Iraq, Afghanistan, Kosovo, Bosnia, Somalia, wherever. Call on me and my brothers in arms...we have been and will always be here. The location doesn't matter to us...it's the urge to fulfill our duty. This is an all-voluntary profession, but we are all human and you will see the disheartened "words" or hear the frustrated "voices" from all comers, even Soldiers. I'm off to bed now...not to dream or fret over war, or Hidtha, but hopefully of a day fullfiled with bent rods and silver steelies on the other end.

You, me and Wynoochie. No war, politics, or religion...game???

We had great discussions last time out. Hanging out all the time with people who think exactly the same is boring. Far better to hang out with intelligent people who force oneself to think.

Let me know what days you have off. Jessie and I are heading down to Oregon on Sunday. I'm staying in Olympia for a big party Saturday night, with lots of drunk nurses, and EMT girls with loose morals. It took some convincing to get me to stay. Maybe Saturday we can hit the water from 7am till 2pm. Call me or send me an IM.

Vince


And I think this thread is worn out. With only one other observation to make. The incident in Mahmoudiya struck me as having nothing to do with war, and everything to do with someone truly evil, seizing an opportunity. The accused was discharged with a mental illness, antisocial personality disorder. It's what used to be referred to as being a sociopath, or psychopath.

I had the misfortune a few years ago of having to spend 80 hours with an 18 y/o with the same diagnosis. Very charming kid. But something very cold and distressful having to be anywhere near him. He and two friends took a 16 y/o boy out to the woods, raped him, beat him, and shot him in the stomach. And while he was still alive set him on fire. Afterwards they all got drunk while he burned. He was at our psychiatric hosp for an independant secondary evaluation prior to sentencing. He got some leeway due to the fact he was a very innocent and tender 17 years old when he committed his crimes.

Yes, a very charming kid.

Alot of Catholics in your list FisherDan. For as much grief that the Catholic Church gets in the press (some of it deserved), they are rather forward thinking when it comes to science, compared to some other Christian churches. For example, quickly name me a famous geneticist, physicist, or cosmologist who is also a Southern Baptist...but this is a topic for another thread entirely.