SB ... I was waiting for someone to bring this up. yes, both are commercial entities. However, there is a vast difference between the two:

one benefits most from HAVING the greatest number of fish in the rivers, one benefits from TAKING the greatest number of fish from the rivers.

Not even apples and oranges here ... more like apples and uh, liverwurst??

As I mentioned before, it's not THEIR river. Sure they have control of the lowermost section of river, however, the upper river and majority of the Queets is EVERONE'S river! There should be some say on the Fed's part as well as the state in the impacts of these fisheries on the remainder of the watershed.

I also challenge you to find the last time a group of guides fought for lower escapement goals on the rivers they fish on the OP???

9,000 years or 90,000 years ... it doesn't matter! 90 years ago there was a commercial marketplace on the scale we see today. That's the difference!

Big difference between the hatchery programs you mention ... yes, Bog / Calawah fish are there for harvest. But remember, only one user group can selectively fish and has the choice to release those fish that ought to be.

Sounds like you're missing the point on the Snider program ... it is not to generate fish for harvest (although some view it as such). It is to keep alive the naturally smaller early portion of the wild run that has been beat upon by meat hunters, both sport and especially commercial netters. We release all Snider progeny as we wish to see these fish spawn naturally if possible.

CF ... How many wild steelhead have I bonked? One ... and if I could do it over again knowing what I do now, that number would be zero.

We learn over the years our impacts on the resource and how to do our best to minimize them (C&R, selctive regs) when we need to and totally eliminate them in dire situations (closures).

WC ... I hear ya! It's one reason we fight so hard as local businesses to sustain these fisheries. Although, I'll tell you one thing ... odss are you'll likley catch more nice-sized fish from SE (Situk) ... your odds of finding a true monster, 25+ ... are still higher southward That comes from knowing several folks that guide there that see what it has to offer, not a sales pitch from a lodge

One thing about this board you can count on is disagreement which is healthy. Another thing you can count is plenty of holier-than-thou opinions that are offered as if they were fact and as if anyone disagreeing must be plain stupid. Well I'm not stupid and I think the Quinault guides have every bit as much right to guide as the rest of you white guides. Just because you don't have a "tribe" and just because your relatives don't gill net doesn't make you better than they are on any level. The Quinault is a healthy river that is managed well for a sustainable fishery for both the netters and the guides. AND sports fishermen like me who enjoy the serenity of the river and the quality of the fishing. The nets make me mad and I wish they weren't there but they have a right to be there at that is the reality. The guides I have fished with on the Quinault have worked their butts off to show me some quality fishing and they obviously do care about the river and the fishery...Many people in the fisheries business have figured out that working together has more promise that working against each other with rhetoric and emotive ranting and raving. If you don't like the laws CHANGE THEM....

Hey Cryingfish. Thanks for getting me the info. I plan on using your cousin Archie for a guided trip in March. This could be the year that I catch the fish of a life time. Never caught Steel in the 20 pound class. Some nice slabs, but never one that big. And if I don't, there is always another day.

Grandpa, I couldn't have said it better. Bob, that's your perspective as a guide who makes a living on the rivers and the steehead. That is not the perspective of some or even most anglers. A commercial use is a commercial use and your impact, while surely not as great as a gillnetter's, is far greater than the average angler's. Also, your failure to recognize the tribe's rights ("(9,000 or 90,000, it doesn't matter") might not be racism, but certainly is cultural arrogance in the least.

I disagree. There IS a distinct difference in the two......mainly that ONE can be done selctively with very low mortality. I know Bob's stance on keeping wild fish, so it is kind of insulting to him, and many other guides, to group them in the same category as commercial netters.

I still maintain that less netting would take place if alternative income.....like income from guiding, was available. The more tribal guides there are, the more fish they are going to want in the river to hook their clients up with. At least that's the way I would hope it would work.

Bob I agree with you on the fact that all the lower ends of the OP have fish that spawn down lower the bulk of the runs are up river fish as counts prove that however. I would like to see a topic come up that talks about spawner conditions to avoid for the average angler. Last year with all the talk of to many spawners and not enough fresh fish was just an example of lack of angler knowledge, as we managed many bright fish daily last year and did not catch any spawners when that is all I heard about, it is just where you fish I agree!!!PEACE

So a rafting guide that shows some guests some spawning steelhead this summer is the same as a gillnetter too because he too profits from their existance??

Here's a chart of run information for wild steelhead stocks in the Queets over the past 30 years ... pretty sickening to see the trend. Keep in mind the Quinault Tribe does net this five days a week through much of the season.



You want to see something even worse? here's the same for the Humptuips!



If you think that what is happening there is a-okay, then I sure hope these fish will find some sort of a savior before it's too late.

Frankly, I think a number of folks are missing the point. Here you have a group, we can call it a tribe, a race, an economic entity, it doesn't matter what ... that continues to harvest on rivers seeing these sort of downturns.

Then, they turn around and pump a gazillion little smolts into an area they only they have access to on (for the most part on someone else's dime ... FEDS) to create what is yes, a good fishery. If anyone else wants to take part in it, you have to pay to play.

Fine, that is what they wish to do, but is it worth the negative effects on the wild stocks??

If you think so, fine support this group by continuing to finance the destruction of those runs. If not, you voice your support by not giving funds. Pretty simple.

This is not to say that I don't support them guiding, Grandpa, I think you're missing my point there. I'd love to see all tribal fishers guiding vs. netting ... you can selectively fish guiding, you can't netting.

SB, if anyone's suffering from cultural arrogance ... it's the Q's who now run up and down the river in sleds, use mono gillnet, and a massive hatchery system to keep numbers of fish up, and a place called Pike Place Market or Anthony's Homeport to peddle their catch. This fishery has nothing to do with heritage!

I see heritage when I go north each summer. We fight just as hard with commercial netters there ... but no one calls the race card, even though for the most part, the battle is the same.

Tribal fishers there operate one net (for the entire tribe) from time to time from shore with no boat. It's an educational fishery to teach the youngsters about how things were, how they survived. None of the fish are sold.

I have no trouble with netting on this basis.

Let me clarify something...I did not compare Bob to a gillnetter..I said that a white guide and an indian guide do the same basic work. To boycott a tribal guide and go fishing with a white guide as if it makes you better is nuts.

Dan-
I know you may think I am an overbearing asshole whose proactive nature is a detriment to wild fish...but oh well. I am tired of the status quo and I feel that action needs to be taken...however controversial it may be...


Dan S...I can see where yourself, Salmo g. and other would believe that a boycott would make them take a step backwards...but take for example Letty.

She is one of the most well liked and popular guides on the Reservation...it seems she maybe the perfect example of how running a succesful guide business should end the need to comercial fish....yet she is contstantly posting pictures of gillnet caught fish held by her husband...obviously, leading a succesful guide business does not end one's need to net...that is why I see we must take some action to let them know we will pull our dollars out of the Reservation if they do not limit their netting!

Let me clarify one more thing...I am 100% opposed to all netting in Washington. My guide on the Quinault is against the nets on the river. Not supporting the guide will not slow down the netting. Boycotting guides will have no effect on netting. Netting takes place very low on the river with most guiding much further upriver. Without the nets the Q's would be the premier steelhead rivers in the country.

Grandpa, hate to be rude but if you are not part of the solution you're part of the problem

Nah, Sparkey.......I just think your youthful exuberance leads you astray from time to time. I know your intentions are good.....but your delivery sometimes needs a little polish.

skydriftin:

What???? What solution? To what problem?
Indians? Gillnets? Fishing with guides?
helllllooooooooooooo

Would I be part of the solution if I hated indians and blamed them for all your fishing problems? If I boycott the indians?

You have no idea what I do for fishing.

Nobody said guides were the same as gillnetters, but both are commercial uses of a resource with impacts greater than the average angler. Nothing wrong with comparing them to each other or any other impact on the fish. And that doesn't mean I'm opposed to guiding at all. Bob, it does matter what you call it or them and your failure to recognize that makes your indignation ring hollow.

I disagree SB ... it's sorta like these stories of the first Native American to do this, the first black to do that.

It's WHAT you do, and not WHO does it. That's my point.

IMHO there are only a couple of ways the nets are comin out or the Q. The federal government gets some since ( fat chance) the river drys up.

Maybe Letty uses those pics of net caught fish to put pressure on the netters to quit (do ya think?.... maybe) through public uproar. Nothing else seems to get anybodys atten.

As Sparkey aka (SPECIAL) has said, most of us are more interested in cacthing fish than preserving the runs.

I don't think the nets are comin out by any act of government in our lifetime, so maybe it' s worth a shot at trying to steer them towards a more profitable endevore.

Wish the rivers would shape up!

herm

bob,

your a guide i think???? do you make all your clients release fish that are caught? I understand your, and others concerns for wild fish, but i wonder if you practice what you preach??? what rivers do you guide on, and is there wild fish that can be caught while you guide on these?? If so, are you willing to beach your boat for the rest of the season in fear of catching, or mortally wounding one, or more? do you bonk native fish up north?? if so do you think this will effect the runs up there in the future??? just questions i've pondered with, thanks for your response. I know little about alaskas fisheries.


steel

Sf ... Yes, I'm a guide on the Forks-area rivers. It has been our company policy since day one (over ten years now) of a no-kill policy on wild steelhead regardless of whether or not it's legal where we fish on a given day.

You can visit these pages for our postings regarding this:

http://www.piscatorialpursuits.com/winsteelhead.htm

http://www.piscatorialpursuits.com/winsteelhead.htm

http://www.piscatorialpursuits.com/waregs.htm

We've also eliminated some high-mortality methods of fishing to decrease our impact. If it comes to the point where our runs are facing the dire straits that many of the state's rivers are ... yes, I'll beach my boat. I did this fall before the closures were emplaced when we saw how much trouble the salmon were facing.

We're fighting for the continued health of runs ... the track record around these parts is always too little too late it seems and we're trying to our part to see that doesn't happen.

We catch very few steelhead in our Alaska fishery .. there are a few holdover spawners that we see in the spring and a few early fish at the very end of our silver season.

Guess what, state law requires the release ... not even a removal from the water, of these fish.

Many may not agree with my views, but no one can ever accuse of me not trying to live up to what I preach

Grandpa,
.
.The Quinalt is not healthy. Actually the worst off of all the OP systems as far as health of the native stocks goes..
.
Fastwater,
.
.Sorry to say that unfortunately most of the spawning does go on in the lower rivers, Below 101,Quileute System more than others, now since the early component of the runs numbers have been in decline. so if you fish the lower rivers below 101 in the spring meaning March April you are almost exclusively fishing stageing fish that may not have spawned yet but are gettin ready too. there are exceptions but that is the norm.

RichG: So what facts do you site to back up your claims? How can you tell a native fish from a hatchery fish if neither one are fin clipped?

Granted no river is as healthy as it used to be. Comparitively speaking the Quinault seems to be pretty healthy. If you base everything on strictly "wild" fish who knows...do you?