http://www.wa.gov/wdfw/hat/escape/escape.htm This page has hatchery returns by the week, each weeks new numbers being added to the last week. Once in a while there are errors. They had the Elocomen down for like 4000 fish one week, but it could be a useful tool.

Jerry the queston is did the Eloch really get thoes fish back? To me WDFW hatchery statistics are ALWAYS suspect. I have seen cases where WDFW staff either made gross errors in reporting or flat out lied about the numbers of fish. On particular case on the East Fork Lewis river where punchcard reports we VASTLY!!! different than creel surveys conducted by the Clark Skamania Flyfishers..

RA3,

As long as data is collected and recorded by humans, there will be errors. As for outright lying, I don't know what the possible incentive could be, but I'm not going to debate that point. Punchcard returns never comport with creel census results. We have know for at least 30 years that punchcard data is not very accurate. That is one of the main reasons for doing creel surveys. Creel surveys, if they follow a reliable statistical sampling design, can provide higher quality estimates of catch and angler effort, and they can provide the information much sooner than waiting for the less accurate punchcard data. My main point is that no one should have been surprised that the punchcard results and creel census data for the EF Lewis provided disimilar estimates.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Jerry,
Your post is a little misleading to me, as I assumed you were infering that the hatchery numbers of 4000, for the week in question, were pertaining to Steelhead. When in fact they were reported for Coho. According to the report for winter run steelhead, only 205 are listed in the latest escapement report.

Please correct me if I am wrong.
Catarafter

I was up to the Washougal Hatchery with a friend yesterday,talked to the guys up there.They said they only had 390 fish and had given up on getting anymore ,where are the fish
Bob

Salmo

Please excuse my rebellious comments here!

Both my wife and I have been busting our butts all day trimming our fruit trees … and you know we have quite a few of them!

I don't really want to put you between a rock and a hard spot today, but how does NMFS determine punch card data? You say (and I am assuming that we "is" NMFS) "Punch card returns never comport with creel census results. We have known for at least 30 years that punch card data is not very accurate."

Well, Salmo, how does NMFS compute it; what do they use? Since the buck stops with them, how does that work?

You also say; "That is one of the main reasons for doing creel surveys. Creel surveys, if they follow a reliable statistical sampling design, can provide higher quality estimates of catch and angler effort, and they can provide the information much sooner than waiting for the less accurate punch card data." Does not NMFS make it mandatory to follow such protocols? Or are they just like every other bureaucratic agency?


Cowlitzfisherman

Salmo G

The creel reports were over the month of march if i remember right and were conducted every weekend both days. and again i am going by memory but i believe the creel survey counted 1 wild steelhead illegaly kept yet WDFW report said several hundred were caught that month.

I am not saying where the "error" but i have my suspicions..

It is very much in the interest of WDFW to show that lots of hatchery steelhead are coming back and that people have the opportunity to harvest them. Without that there is no justification for the millions they spend on hatcheries. I wouldn't it put it past WDFW ( in olympia) to manufacture catch stats but thats just my cynical view based on what i have observed with government agencies including WDFW. Just my opinion i guess

CFM,

Huh? Maybe you're working too hard on the trees? I used "we" in a generic sense. WDFW is generally the management agency, especially for steelhead as referred to in this example. NMFS doesn't have anything to do with steelhead or salmon punchcards as far as I know. To the extent NMFS uses catch data, it comes from whatever source can provide it. That is almost always WDFW or ODFW as far as I know. Exceptions might be some of the Alaskan fisheries, but even that data probably originates with ADF&G. I don't think NMFS tells the agencies how to collect their data. I think there is probably a delicate line or balance between state sovereignty and federal oversight, but this is far from my expertise to report on. So I guess the answer is no, NMFS doesn't make the state conduct creel surveys, nor approve the statistical design of those it conducts. I'm not sure the point of your question, but, personally, I don't have enough information to know if NMFS is just like every other bureaucratic agency.

RA3,

Rather than implie or allege that WDFW is incompetent, making up data, or lying, why not call them up and ask for an explanation for such an extreme discrepancy. There's usually a reason.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Catarafter, Check the page 8 numbers for Jan. 23, the Elo is there for 4000 winters. The total the next week is lower.

Salmo G.

You handle yourself quite well. Thanks for your input.

RA3,

I think I heard one of those helicopters, you know, the black ones.

There have been a number of confession here where regular posters say they intentionally fabricate info on their punch cards, so that being the case, it isn't just an issue of data integrity from the WDFW's compilation of data, but also the source from which the data originates. We need to all do our part.

Andy