Judging from chat last night, I know a lot of folks didn't read through my topic for last night, so I thought I'd take a poll on this to see what anglers think about an idea for a statewide regulation that would forbid anglers from removing a fish from the water prior to release.

A couple of poll questions on this:

Woould you support such a rule for:
steelhead only
steelhead, kings, silvers
not at all

A secondary question would be whether or not there should be a mandatory mesh size for netting fish to be released:
wild steelhead release areas only
all areas
no reg

A little background on this ... the areas that I fish in Alaska have regulations that forbid anglers from removing either kings, steelhead or rainbows from the water prior to release.

It semms to work fairly well, pictures can still be taken with the fish partially in the water in the shallows ... yet this keeps fish from being brought aboard and flopping in the boat or being held out of the water for long periods before release.

I bring this up as last week-end, I was at Leyendecker Park talking with the local fish checker regarding the creel count ???'s that Smalma brought up.

While there, a boat littered with California guide stickers pulls out (I bring up the stickers because you think they would have known better).

After pulling out, the fish checker called me over to watch a video they were showing him of about a 15-16 pound buck they "released".

The video showed the fish being netted in a standard landing net, then pulled aboard ... the fish flopped around a few times. They proceeded to finally get the fish out of the net, cut the leader about 18 inches up from the fish, let it flop a few more times. Then an angler in the front of the boat reached down and grabbed the fish. The other fella dug for a camera for a few moments and then finally snapped a picture. The angler holding the fish then simply threw the fish back in the river ...

I asked them to play it back one more time and started counting at the time the fish came in the boat until the time it landed in the water ... 62 seconds.

Biting my tongue the best I could, I simply suggested they they keep the fish out of the water for a shorter period of time next time and walked away without really saying what I though about the whole thing.

I hate to say it, but it's not the first time I've seen handled like this. Given that ... is it time to put some sort of regulation in place to avoid this sort of handling down the road?

I know it will inconvenience some, especially those in sleds looking for a fish pic, BUT if this is what's gonna happen, I personally think we should have something in place.

Bob,

As to your question on mandatory net mesh size, I would be more in favor of a net material reg for C&R areas. Cotton or rubberized, not knotted nylon.

I would also include ANY fish that you intend to release should not be removed from the water. (drug up onto the bank, or allowed to flop around in the bottom of the boat)

The atrocities comitted on chum salmon every year are just plain disgusting!

If we could only legislate good common sense, (yeah right ) there would be no need for this poll in the first place. (I know, I'm dreamin...)

Generally, the small mesh sizes will fall into that knotless category, so I figured that as a given

But Bob!! The fish you are showing off for the camera under your name is OUT OF THE WATER

Yes it is ... but I know we work hard at handling fish carefully and NEVER in the boat or on the bank. You'll always see that fish are held over water ... if someone loses a grip, it plops back in the water, not on the floor of the boat. You'll also notice on 99% of our pix that you'll see drips from the fish ... only a couple of seconds to take a pic as the fish is in the water until that time. In fact, that looks like drip from the right ventral fin of the one above.

It'll change things a little for us, but we can adjust

I'm all for these types of restrictions, I didn't used to be. In fact I used to think that most guys tried as hard as I do to handle fish carefully... until last week when I was blasted by a bunch of guys on this board for mentioning that it isn't OK to bring wild fish into a boat and the net that was used to do so. If we can't teach guys to do it right, I guess that we should change the rules to make them do it right. These fish are too valueable to be mishandle.

I have seen some brutal mishandling of Chums as well. Its common to see people drag a chum up the bank 15-20 feet, booting it if necessary. Then kick a field goal with them back into the water. "Damn Chums" is what you usually hear. Interestingly, they keep on fishing among 100 other chum after that.... I guess there must be a sivler down there somewhere??? Silvers are often brutalized in the salt as well. Wild silvers should not be netted. Period.

Although I like getting nice photos and handle fish with extreem care I would be in favor of such rules and sacrifice my oportunity to get the glory shots. Most people dont know how to handle fish and some dont care If it saves some fish id be for it.

Well, I don't know about the fish in water thing...doesn't seem real practical to me for every situation....Ok more for big rivers maybe where access to the beach is more easily obtained. I believe it to be good practice, don't get me wrong, but I just don't think it very practical to make it law. Hard for me to picture a guy looking for a clipped fin while keeping the fish in the water in the only landing spot which just happens to be swift water, or steep drop-off bank, especially if he fishes alone, unless the fish is so tired that its chances for survival are jeapordized. Kinda seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face to tire a fish out so you can get a good look, possibly a picture, and unhooking.

As far as net mesh size......great idea anytime.

Works far better than you'd think F5A ... the river I fish in AK has almost nowhere to get out and you can see less than 5" into the water and we've operated under clipped only rules there at times ... no probs

Bob,

In the way you have worded this I would have to say that it is not a good idea. There are too many exceptions that would have to be made. The resulting regulation would just add another layer of confusion to the existing novel of regulations we allready have.

The first problem is safety. There are some areas where leaning over the boat is downright dangerous under certain weather conditions. The Columbia comes to mind in many places. Also, since you are thinking statewide rule, the safety concern pops up again in all marine waters under certain conditions and in certain boats. I have been on several boats where I would have to be strung to the rail by my ankles to reach the water.

Another problem area is when the regulations require a minimum size. Some people will undoubtedly have the urge to post "if it is close to being undersized just release it." Problem is that is not a reasonable request for the angler who fishes every once a while and is lucky to catch the fish in the first place.

I think there are some specific fisheries where some of this could be considered. For instance, special nets required for the catch and release fisheries could merit more discussion. But for the majority of the fisheries we need to just rely on education.

Bob, I'm all for your proposals. Too many times I've seen Jethro drag humpies up the beach and then punt them back in the water. Then there are the guys who drag a steelhead up the beach, AND THEN look to see if it's clipped. I do think Mr. Gilchrist brings up some valid points that would have to be addressed.

Fresh water... I am all for leaving the fish in the water. In the salt , there are times when I do not feel comfortable leaning out over the side of my boat. Especially on a choppy day or another boat passes by leaving a big wake. Even with the release stick!

As far as rivers, it is easier than most will think.
My only problem bringing a fish to hand is with a 15' spey rod!

Downriggin'

Bob,
I'm all in favor of doing everything we can to preserve our fish. But I believe only those of us that feel the same about it would adhere to such regulations. There are not enough enforcement people as it is, and just making a law without being able to enforce it, is not going to help, in my opinion. If allowed to bring out of the water for a certain length of time, who will be making the time count. Will the use of stopwatches be needed then? I believe education could help a lot more, that just adding a new law, while those we already have, aren’t being enforced.
Catarafter

There's almost never a situation where you must net and bring a steelhead, blackmouth or king into the boat to release it. However, I have had silvers get so dang tangled and wrapped up it was a project to let 'em go. I feel it's especially bad to bring shaker blackmouth into the boat since they are so susceptible to scale loss. Drives me crazy when I see people mishandle fish they're releasing, and I see it all too frequently. But I'm not sure a regulation requiring they be kept in the water would be functional in all situations. I would support language about minimizing handling of released fish.

Unless the fish in going to be marked on your card and taken home the fish has NO reason to leave the water for more then a few seconds. You see it all the time some jack... nets a fish,then checks it as it flops around in the bottom of the boat. If its a clip fin thing check it at the side of the boat. If its a measurerment thing, if its that close let it go.

Are there specific handling regs in Canada? If there are, we should give those a look as far as wording, and what's worked in other areas. I just know it's a world of difference between the way Canadians release fish and the way we do. When I release a steelhead on the Vedder, I tail the fish in ankle deep water, drop to my knees (chest waders a must), remove the hook, and release. If I have a pic taken, I'm on my knees and in the water, and even so I've had a northern fella say "is that necessary".

When summer king fishing, and sockeye seasons are closed, you don't dare pull a sockeye out of the water--you wade in pliers in hand and release the fish without touching it. And I've heard locals talk of threats to close fisheries if sockeye aren't handled like china (by Dept. of Fish. and Oceans--BC's equivalent to our WDFW)

Whether there are actual handling regs in Canada or not, there is both greater knowledge and ethic regarding releasing fish gently. To instill such an ethic down here, I believe we need specific regs.

I have to agree with some, my boat is a bit too big to reach into the water to release a fish. As for shakers, they come out of the water, pliers on the hook, a quick twist and he is back in the water not have been touched by human hands. That is the best I can do, but in smaller boats you bet, leave 'em in the water. When a large fish comes in the boat, he goes on the vinyl motor cover and not on the carpet if possible. The carpet is a good scaler! As Downriggin' said, some of those tugs in the bay put water over the bow of my 20 footer, I am not going to lean over the side to release a fish and risk going overboard.

I think maybe Bob was referring to river fishing more than open water, maybe it should be a fishery by fishery rule?

I have to agree that a no net policy would be beneficial to all fisheries, especially after seeing how many kings are handled in Area 9 and 10 during the summer (into the net, onto the floor, flop flop, out of the net, up for the picture, pitched back into the drink). Last year I purchased an extra long set of needle nose pliers (about 24" long) and these work like a charm for releasing fish in the water, with no more risk (maybe less) than it takes to net a fish from the side of the boat (how many times have you seen somebody lunge at a fish with the net!)

I have have to fully agree with those suggesting education in handling fish is the way to go. In principle this is like gun safety. At 10 yrs old i was taught all of the does and donts of the handling of weapons at pierce counties TSC along with what my dad had already taught me. Now there isnt a law enforcing each one of these important principles and there should be no reason to make such laws if everyone is sent through the same training. Ya you have your law breaking exceptions some times with a few people, but for the most part it works well. Now as for releasing salmon/trout/steelhead if every magazine, organization, t.v. show, etc... promoted safe release practices every chance they got it would surely have an impact. Most of all though, the best way is by example.
Hey I will admit right here that I was one of those that booted chums on the beach this year. And you know I didnt really know any better. With salmon and steelhead i was always careful with them and so were those around me, but when it came to chums these same people were like "BLAM onto the beach you go." I didnt know why either, I assumed that maybe chums are just tough and not nearly as fazed by such treatment. Now I didnt yard a fish with my boot like it was a football I usually new before it hit the shore wether i was gonna keep it or not so i just kept it near water, yanked the hook out of those monster teeth, put the fish in the water, cleaned it off and held it till it left under its own power. Now this is my first year doing serious river fishing so this was my first experience with chum fishing. And when you go down there and see people just kicking them on the beach it has an impact on you. I'm not trying to justify anything I'm just trying to give an impression of how well example works. What if those other 100 fishermen were only beaching those chums they kept and were water releasing those they didnt, I doubt kicking chums would have ever crossed my mind. I started reading this board about the time I first went to the nisqually to chum fish and after I saw the concern and complaints about the handling of chums I questioned my own methods and adjusted them to where i treated a chum like a steelhead and handled it with great care if it was gonna get released. Also, the game wardens were ticketing people for kicking chums around so atleast the minimal game enforcement we do have was doing something about it. I hope this gives you guys some idea on how a first time chum fishermen is influenced by what he see's around him.
Now you better believe 99% of the time if any salmon or steelhead gets within arms length i usually know by then whether I'm going to keep it or not. If I am I'll use any technique at my disposal to get that bugger on the beach, which usually becomes a joint effort with us. We dont care whether its simply grabbing it by the tail or gills, kicking, or full on football tackling, the fish will be put on the beach.
Just as an example of what can go wrong when landing a fish, this last july a friend of mine and I were at the barrier dam. He hooks into this maybe 5 pound clipped steelhead and wears it down till it neatly slides up to the rocks. Well I'm behind it ready to grab the thing and as soon as its nose hits the rocks it comes alive flips around zips across and through my feet, i jump, the line breaks, we both dive after the fish, fish gone, were soaked. now there were probably 50 people down there lining the beach in their lawn chairs and so on, just imagine the reaction of seeing two very large 6'7" guys diving after a 5 pound fish.

waterboy