Judging from chat last night, I know a lot of folks didn't read through my topic for last night, so I thought I'd take a poll on this to see what anglers think about an idea for a statewide regulation that would forbid anglers from removing a fish from the water prior to release.

A couple of poll questions on this:

Woould you support such a rule for:
steelhead only
steelhead, kings, silvers
not at all

A secondary question would be whether or not there should be a mandatory mesh size for netting fish to be released:
wild steelhead release areas only
all areas
no reg

A little background on this ... the areas that I fish in Alaska have regulations that forbid anglers from removing either kings, steelhead or rainbows from the water prior to release.

It semms to work fairly well, pictures can still be taken with the fish partially in the water in the shallows ... yet this keeps fish from being brought aboard and flopping in the boat or being held out of the water for long periods before release.

I bring this up as last week-end, I was at Leyendecker Park talking with the local fish checker regarding the creel count ???'s that Smalma brought up.

While there, a boat littered with California guide stickers pulls out (I bring up the stickers because you think they would have known better).

After pulling out, the fish checker called me over to watch a video they were showing him of about a 15-16 pound buck they "released".

The video showed the fish being netted in a standard landing net, then pulled aboard ... the fish flopped around a few times. They proceeded to finally get the fish out of the net, cut the leader about 18 inches up from the fish, let it flop a few more times. Then an angler in the front of the boat reached down and grabbed the fish. The other fella dug for a camera for a few moments and then finally snapped a picture. The angler holding the fish then simply threw the fish back in the river ...

I asked them to play it back one more time and started counting at the time the fish came in the boat until the time it landed in the water ... 62 seconds.

Biting my tongue the best I could, I simply suggested they they keep the fish out of the water for a shorter period of time next time and walked away without really saying what I though about the whole thing.

I hate to say it, but it's not the first time I've seen handled like this. Given that ... is it time to put some sort of regulation in place to avoid this sort of handling down the road?

I know it will inconvenience some, especially those in sleds looking for a fish pic, BUT if this is what's gonna happen, I personally think we should have something in place.

Bob,

As to your question on mandatory net mesh size, I would be more in favor of a net material reg for C&R areas. Cotton or rubberized, not knotted nylon.

I would also include ANY fish that you intend to release should not be removed from the water. (drug up onto the bank, or allowed to flop around in the bottom of the boat)

The atrocities comitted on chum salmon every year are just plain disgusting!

If we could only legislate good common sense, (yeah right ) there would be no need for this poll in the first place. (I know, I'm dreamin...)

Generally, the small mesh sizes will fall into that knotless category, so I figured that as a given

But Bob!! The fish you are showing off for the camera under your name is OUT OF THE WATER

Yes it is ... but I know we work hard at handling fish carefully and NEVER in the boat or on the bank. You'll always see that fish are held over water ... if someone loses a grip, it plops back in the water, not on the floor of the boat. You'll also notice on 99% of our pix that you'll see drips from the fish ... only a couple of seconds to take a pic as the fish is in the water until that time. In fact, that looks like drip from the right ventral fin of the one above.

It'll change things a little for us, but we can adjust

I'm all for these types of restrictions, I didn't used to be. In fact I used to think that most guys tried as hard as I do to handle fish carefully... until last week when I was blasted by a bunch of guys on this board for mentioning that it isn't OK to bring wild fish into a boat and the net that was used to do so. If we can't teach guys to do it right, I guess that we should change the rules to make them do it right. These fish are too valueable to be mishandle.

I have seen some brutal mishandling of Chums as well. Its common to see people drag a chum up the bank 15-20 feet, booting it if necessary. Then kick a field goal with them back into the water. "Damn Chums" is what you usually hear. Interestingly, they keep on fishing among 100 other chum after that.... I guess there must be a sivler down there somewhere??? Silvers are often brutalized in the salt as well. Wild silvers should not be netted. Period.

Although I like getting nice photos and handle fish with extreem care I would be in favor of such rules and sacrifice my oportunity to get the glory shots. Most people dont know how to handle fish and some dont care If it saves some fish id be for it.

Well, I don't know about the fish in water thing...doesn't seem real practical to me for every situation....Ok more for big rivers maybe where access to the beach is more easily obtained. I believe it to be good practice, don't get me wrong, but I just don't think it very practical to make it law. Hard for me to picture a guy looking for a clipped fin while keeping the fish in the water in the only landing spot which just happens to be swift water, or steep drop-off bank, especially if he fishes alone, unless the fish is so tired that its chances for survival are jeapordized. Kinda seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face to tire a fish out so you can get a good look, possibly a picture, and unhooking.

As far as net mesh size......great idea anytime.

Works far better than you'd think F5A ... the river I fish in AK has almost nowhere to get out and you can see less than 5" into the water and we've operated under clipped only rules there at times ... no probs

Bob,

In the way you have worded this I would have to say that it is not a good idea. There are too many exceptions that would have to be made. The resulting regulation would just add another layer of confusion to the existing novel of regulations we allready have.

The first problem is safety. There are some areas where leaning over the boat is downright dangerous under certain weather conditions. The Columbia comes to mind in many places. Also, since you are thinking statewide rule, the safety concern pops up again in all marine waters under certain conditions and in certain boats. I have been on several boats where I would have to be strung to the rail by my ankles to reach the water.

Another problem area is when the regulations require a minimum size. Some people will undoubtedly have the urge to post "if it is close to being undersized just release it." Problem is that is not a reasonable request for the angler who fishes every once a while and is lucky to catch the fish in the first place.

I think there are some specific fisheries where some of this could be considered. For instance, special nets required for the catch and release fisheries could merit more discussion. But for the majority of the fisheries we need to just rely on education.

Bob, I'm all for your proposals. Too many times I've seen Jethro drag humpies up the beach and then punt them back in the water. Then there are the guys who drag a steelhead up the beach, AND THEN look to see if it's clipped. I do think Mr. Gilchrist brings up some valid points that would have to be addressed.

Fresh water... I am all for leaving the fish in the water. In the salt , there are times when I do not feel comfortable leaning out over the side of my boat. Especially on a choppy day or another boat passes by leaving a big wake. Even with the release stick!

As far as rivers, it is easier than most will think.
My only problem bringing a fish to hand is with a 15' spey rod!

Downriggin'

Bob,
I'm all in favor of doing everything we can to preserve our fish. But I believe only those of us that feel the same about it would adhere to such regulations. There are not enough enforcement people as it is, and just making a law without being able to enforce it, is not going to help, in my opinion. If allowed to bring out of the water for a certain length of time, who will be making the time count. Will the use of stopwatches be needed then? I believe education could help a lot more, that just adding a new law, while those we already have, aren’t being enforced.
Catarafter

There's almost never a situation where you must net and bring a steelhead, blackmouth or king into the boat to release it. However, I have had silvers get so dang tangled and wrapped up it was a project to let 'em go. I feel it's especially bad to bring shaker blackmouth into the boat since they are so susceptible to scale loss. Drives me crazy when I see people mishandle fish they're releasing, and I see it all too frequently. But I'm not sure a regulation requiring they be kept in the water would be functional in all situations. I would support language about minimizing handling of released fish.

Unless the fish in going to be marked on your card and taken home the fish has NO reason to leave the water for more then a few seconds. You see it all the time some jack... nets a fish,then checks it as it flops around in the bottom of the boat. If its a clip fin thing check it at the side of the boat. If its a measurerment thing, if its that close let it go.

Are there specific handling regs in Canada? If there are, we should give those a look as far as wording, and what's worked in other areas. I just know it's a world of difference between the way Canadians release fish and the way we do. When I release a steelhead on the Vedder, I tail the fish in ankle deep water, drop to my knees (chest waders a must), remove the hook, and release. If I have a pic taken, I'm on my knees and in the water, and even so I've had a northern fella say "is that necessary".

When summer king fishing, and sockeye seasons are closed, you don't dare pull a sockeye out of the water--you wade in pliers in hand and release the fish without touching it. And I've heard locals talk of threats to close fisheries if sockeye aren't handled like china (by Dept. of Fish. and Oceans--BC's equivalent to our WDFW)

Whether there are actual handling regs in Canada or not, there is both greater knowledge and ethic regarding releasing fish gently. To instill such an ethic down here, I believe we need specific regs.

I have to agree with some, my boat is a bit too big to reach into the water to release a fish. As for shakers, they come out of the water, pliers on the hook, a quick twist and he is back in the water not have been touched by human hands. That is the best I can do, but in smaller boats you bet, leave 'em in the water. When a large fish comes in the boat, he goes on the vinyl motor cover and not on the carpet if possible. The carpet is a good scaler! As Downriggin' said, some of those tugs in the bay put water over the bow of my 20 footer, I am not going to lean over the side to release a fish and risk going overboard.

I think maybe Bob was referring to river fishing more than open water, maybe it should be a fishery by fishery rule?

I have to agree that a no net policy would be beneficial to all fisheries, especially after seeing how many kings are handled in Area 9 and 10 during the summer (into the net, onto the floor, flop flop, out of the net, up for the picture, pitched back into the drink). Last year I purchased an extra long set of needle nose pliers (about 24" long) and these work like a charm for releasing fish in the water, with no more risk (maybe less) than it takes to net a fish from the side of the boat (how many times have you seen somebody lunge at a fish with the net!)

I have have to fully agree with those suggesting education in handling fish is the way to go. In principle this is like gun safety. At 10 yrs old i was taught all of the does and donts of the handling of weapons at pierce counties TSC along with what my dad had already taught me. Now there isnt a law enforcing each one of these important principles and there should be no reason to make such laws if everyone is sent through the same training. Ya you have your law breaking exceptions some times with a few people, but for the most part it works well. Now as for releasing salmon/trout/steelhead if every magazine, organization, t.v. show, etc... promoted safe release practices every chance they got it would surely have an impact. Most of all though, the best way is by example.
Hey I will admit right here that I was one of those that booted chums on the beach this year. And you know I didnt really know any better. With salmon and steelhead i was always careful with them and so were those around me, but when it came to chums these same people were like "BLAM onto the beach you go." I didnt know why either, I assumed that maybe chums are just tough and not nearly as fazed by such treatment. Now I didnt yard a fish with my boot like it was a football I usually new before it hit the shore wether i was gonna keep it or not so i just kept it near water, yanked the hook out of those monster teeth, put the fish in the water, cleaned it off and held it till it left under its own power. Now this is my first year doing serious river fishing so this was my first experience with chum fishing. And when you go down there and see people just kicking them on the beach it has an impact on you. I'm not trying to justify anything I'm just trying to give an impression of how well example works. What if those other 100 fishermen were only beaching those chums they kept and were water releasing those they didnt, I doubt kicking chums would have ever crossed my mind. I started reading this board about the time I first went to the nisqually to chum fish and after I saw the concern and complaints about the handling of chums I questioned my own methods and adjusted them to where i treated a chum like a steelhead and handled it with great care if it was gonna get released. Also, the game wardens were ticketing people for kicking chums around so atleast the minimal game enforcement we do have was doing something about it. I hope this gives you guys some idea on how a first time chum fishermen is influenced by what he see's around him.
Now you better believe 99% of the time if any salmon or steelhead gets within arms length i usually know by then whether I'm going to keep it or not. If I am I'll use any technique at my disposal to get that bugger on the beach, which usually becomes a joint effort with us. We dont care whether its simply grabbing it by the tail or gills, kicking, or full on football tackling, the fish will be put on the beach.
Just as an example of what can go wrong when landing a fish, this last july a friend of mine and I were at the barrier dam. He hooks into this maybe 5 pound clipped steelhead and wears it down till it neatly slides up to the rocks. Well I'm behind it ready to grab the thing and as soon as its nose hits the rocks it comes alive flips around zips across and through my feet, i jump, the line breaks, we both dive after the fish, fish gone, were soaked. now there were probably 50 people down there lining the beach in their lawn chairs and so on, just imagine the reaction of seeing two very large 6'7" guys diving after a 5 pound fish.

waterboy

I do my best to handle fish as carefully as possible. I and those I fish with are getting better at it.

There are times that we bring fish to the net. I am very interested in "Catch and Release" Nets or the knotless nets being mentioned.

What specific make or type of net would you think to be the best?

Sad but true that the same morons who trash fish when they take them out of the water will screw it up even if they leave them in the water. I have no problem with anyone who wants to take a quick picture of a fish if he knows how to treat it. I have handled hundreds of them over the years and can say that I took good care of each one. I have also seen lots of abuse from all manner of bubba's, but never - ever in my boat. I love them way to much to hurt them

You would be doing a lot more for the future of the fish if you would just simply release all wild stocks- in all systems. How can you lobbie for no taking them out of the water at all when its leagle to bonk them if you want?? I know you can't bonk them on every river but you get what I am saying.

I have to admit that the most pissed off I have ever been on the river is when I see some moron with a bass master mentality "chuck" a steelhead.

why do you need to use a net at all? I have never had to use a net to land a wild steelhead even from those tricky places on the shore and when in the drift boat I will row over to shore and get out or if I'm in a spot where that won't work I simply drop anchor bring the fish to the side of the boat unpin the hook and when the fish is revived let it swim away.

The thing is people do use nets so lets try to minimize the impacts that nets have by using a good catch and release net such as a Loki. I have heard talk of how it is difficult to release fish without taking them out of the water when it is rough, But in a full summer in SE Alaska releasing upwards of 30-50 kings a day we didn't touch a single fish and that is in seas of 12-15 ft. at times. It can be done. I do think that education is a major player in saving fish. But we are at a drastic time in the survival of our wild fish and it's time to do whatever we can do to minimize our impact upon the resource. Just my .02
Joe

I'm with JoJo, a good C&R net should be mandatory in all C&R fisheries. Unfortunatly I think some idiots will continue bringing fish in the boat or on the bank. Maybe some quick tips should be given out by the WDFW on proper release of fish, put on the back of a punch card.

I'm OK with not removing them from the water, but I think the focus on not netting fish is a mistake. Properly done, you can net a fish when it is much fresher, release it more quickly, and just generally put less stress on a fish than by beaching a fish.

Bob, I just got the opportunity to read your thread about netting, handling and releasing fish. I voted no on your survey. Mike brought up many good points that first need to be addressed before proposing any such rule change.

Here's a few on my own reasons for not supporting such a new rule change at this time.

1) What study shows that a small size net mess does less harm then a larger size net mess? Is the difference because the larger net mess size may make it easer for fish to get more tangled up in? Or is it because the small net mess means less knot contact, with in turn is supposed to mean less scale loss.
2) The finer the mess size, the greater the water drag becomes; more water drags usually relates to more net contact with the fish (especially in faster moving waters). Which one then becomes the worse, net size or net contact?
3) Many rivers that support c&r (almost every river in the state) also do not have much public foot access, which in many cases, makes it very difficult for fishermen to "reach the water". In cases such as this, it would make it almost imposable for fishermen to release his fish without first taking it out of the water. A perfect example, on the Willapa River, over 90% of the fishable river has a "dropped off bank" (like 4-6 feet) which would make it almost impossible for fishermen to even reach his fish for release without first netting it. I understand that most of your guiding is done from your drift boat, and that it would not affect you as much because you can still travel to different locations to bank fish; but what about all the others who do not fish in that way?

Bob, do you really believe that as fishermen, we need more rules and regulations that cannot be enforced? What will be next for our states c&r fishery; no scents, no line size over 6 lb, no wearing of wool gloves, no hooks, no pliers, no abrasive lines (tuff line, etc, etc)? Where is all this heading? Some fish just flat a$$ die after being hooked and fought!

It's my opinion, that we, as fishermen, have a reasonability to tell our fellow fishermen when we see they are handling and releasing fish wrongly. It's been my own personal experience, that most fishermen will accept your advice when you tell them in an informative way that they are wrong. And yes, that is even true on the Cowlitz!

There's a whole lot more going on to the decline of our wild fish besides of how we handle, net or release them. In my opinion, that isn't even a dot on a flies a$$ as to why our steelhead runs are still declining!

I am going to stick my neck out on a limb again and use that saying one more time; it's just "common sense" to release a fish in the water when it is possible, when it not possible, it's just going to get the old net treatment!


Cowlitzfisherman

Bob,

I don't post here often but this is a very sore subject for me as I have seen so many blatant abuses in the last couple of years it makes me sick. I think anything we can do to protect the survival of our native salmon and steelhead makes sense. I have another idea I wanted to run by you. Of the fisherman abusing fish, I believe there are two types. There are the ones that are good fisherman but just don't care one way or the other. Then there are the others that don't know any better because they have never been taught how to handle these fish. What would you think about a test that would need to be passed in order to receive your license? Were talking about a simple 15 or 20 question test that would be geared toward unlawful techniques and proper release of our game fish. If you failed the test you don't get a license until you pass. I know some of you might think this is a rediculous idea and might be costly to administer but I think it's the only sure fire way to make sure every person that is going to fish for salmon and steelhead understands the proper way to release game fish safely. If they have to pass a test you can damn well be sure they'll study and know the answers. They might just follow through with what they learned. They have a similar program for getting your hunting license so why can't we do it for fishing too? Just my two sense.

As Homer would say, Doh!

why did you bring up the c/m word again.
I agree there is some real dimwits out there that dont have a clue when it come to fish handling, though I am against more regulations. Even the state says regulations dont work education does at least that what I have been told by state patrol before I get a warning.

There are to many variables in this state to make another blanket regulation. High banks, high boat sides, fishing piers, fast water etc.....


education does work and it doesnt take alot of effort. Take for instance bass, now heres a fish that not to long ago was regarded as a trash fish there was no catch and release regulations on it and everybody kept them or through them on the bank. Now its a popular gamefish that people spend big bucks on, and catch and release is the in thing. Its actually more popular to let them go then it is to keep them. The word Meathead is just one of the educational tools used to encourage catch and release. The same can happen for salmon and steelhead.

Next time you see someone bonk a native laugh and ask are you really going to keep that fish. Comments "like what joke" or "look another newbie" Make them feel unpopular for being a meathead. For alot of people fishing is more about recognition than the actuall act of fishing
The more times they are looked down upon for bonking fish and praised for releasing fish the more likely they will become an avid catch and release fishermen!

as far as a test... I dont think that would work because you can bs your way through that test and say what you want but it is not a matter of knowing what you are doing. It is a character issue, and not one that a simple test is going to change.

Here is my experience. Through the years I have seen just about every type of bs treatment of the fish before release that is possible. From people netting them, keeping them in the boat for a couple minutes and then chucking them over the side, to people beaching fish and getting sand all over them and then releasing them.
The people that care about the fish will make an effort to not harm a fish that they are going to release. It is not hard to see what kind of fish you have by just looking into the water, color, size and shape can tell you everything you need to know.
I dont think a law or any type of regulation would help because the people that do treat the fish like this do not care for them, and proabably wouldn;t care about a law. It may protect a few fish but is it really worth it?
we dont have anough game wardens making citations for serious stuff let alone people taking the fish out of the water. I follow the principles already and like the ideas but it is up to each person to decide how to treat the fish they are going to release. I just dont think it can be enforced. the best we can hope for it that each person takes it upon themselves to do what is best for the fish.
david

#1. Regulate that they must be left in the water?

No. First, I think it would be too hard to enforce, but more importantly, I don't think that it's a good idea. Fish, gear, river, boat, and fisherman include 100's of variables, and sometimes they line up that netting a fish is far better than anything else.

#2. Type of net?

Absolutely. This is an easy one...use a knotless mesh, of a small size. Small size spreads the impact of the net on the fish out, like the difference between being stepped on by a size 15 shoe or a size 7 high heel, with the spike end. Additionally, cnr basket nets are pretty easy to use, and really effective.

Fish on...

Todd.

Just for clarification, and as it is enforced in AK ... you CAN net fish, you simply cannot lift the bag out of the water. That was my intent with this idea, sorry for any confusion

Personally I don't understand why in the heck we have catch and release regulations when most stores don't even carrry knotless nets. The regulation book even says to use a cotton net, but it that is really the case, then everyone with their knotted nets is not in compliance. The only place I have EVER seen a knotless cotton net was at the Hoodsport Hatchery. I'm aware that Frabil manufactures a "knotless" net, but it's really just a plain net coated with vinyl or rubber(pardon me for not researching the material used before making this statement). I would be quite very curious to know of a local retail store where one could purchase a knotless cotton net with small mesh size. Perhaps it is also time that people start contacting net manufacturers and demanding catch and release nets. Salmonids are jewels to be treasured and treated in a royal manner befitting of a king.

Although I'm a relatively amateur fisherman, I have seen lots of atrocious fish handling. When I used to fish the Edmonds pier during salmon season I'd be shocked by the way that many shakers get handled. Trout-sized shakers would get grabbed mid-section and squeezed so that the angler can get the treble hook out of the fish's mouth. It's worse with the smolts which are grabbed such that scale loss occurs do to complete body contact with someone's hand.
However, there is a positive side to this situation. I learned from this very fishing spot from a veteran angler the right way to unhook all undersized salmon. Basically it entailed grabbing the jig and then grabbing the hook and backing it out of the fish's mouth. With this method, little or no contact is made with the fish. The only drawback to this procedure is that the poor smolts get unceremoniously plopped back into the water at least 10-20 feet below.
Drawing on an experience while crabbing at Kayak Point, there it is required that all crabs be released by placing them in a bucket and lowering the bucket to the water's surface. People there can be cited for chucking the sublegal sized crabs over the side of the railing. I figured that the same procedure would work very well for releasing smolts.
Last fall while hitting PNP, I felt pangs of disappointment whenever someone hooked a smolt and mishandled the fish by grabbing it. The pain was even greater when the guy just dropped the fish at his feet and resumed fishing just assuming that the waves would carry the fish back to the sound. It was here that I felt obliged to educate the anglers who did such things, how to properly release baby salmon. At the same time I didn't have enough guts to go up to people and tell them just that.

As stated above im all for no removal from water because all too ofen i see people treating humpies like they arent even fish despite the fact that they are still salmon. Same goes for native stealies and anglers taking them out of the water to check them for clipped fins.

some people just need the extra insentive to handle the fish correctly.

~MATT

If cotton nets and nets without knots are so good for not hurting or decaling fish, and allowing the safe release of wild fish; why doesn't WDFW and ODFW require all gill nets to be made of knotless cotton line?

One would wonder if this equation has even been considered in the NMFS incidental take limits!

Cowlitzfisherman