the run is only expected to be 100 fish over escapment, is it a good idea to have a cnr season ? i dont think so.

dumb question but where did you see the catch and release season I was just reading the closures and dont see what you are talking about.

From what I read this is supposed to be a CNR just like stated in the regs (normal season), no new info that I'm aware of via special WDFW regs/closures.

Loomis - Titanium Cranium is correct.

In the "Other Information" section of the closure notice it says, "The Skagit River and Sauk River
catch-and-release seasons remain open as outlined in the 2002/2003 Fishing in Washington rules pamphlet."

I agree with Boater. To conduct this fishery when the predicted returns are just marginally over escapement goals is a travesty. Why kill any steelhead when the predicted return is just 100 fish above the goal. I'm sure the margin of error in the prediction is much larger than the projected surplus.

To further worsen the situation, all of the other nearby rivers are being closed to all fishing thus directing all the pressure and resulting harm to the Skagit/Sauk System.

Where is the Wild Steelhead Coalition when we need them?
Why are they not acting to stop this travesty?
Perhaps an explanation is in order?

I'm afraid that the lobby for catch-and-release missed the boat on this one.

c'mon guys lets do the math,not just pop off with misguided opinions. Lets say there are 6000 wild fish in the system give or take a few. Of that 6000,lets say its a banner year and 1500 of them are caught by cnr fisherman. State stats say mortality is 10%under selective rules (no bait, single barbless), every study on this I've ever seen says its 2or 3%,these studies were done by agencies with one hell of a lot more creditability than wdfw. For the sake of argueing lets say that mortality is 6%. Thats 90 fish dead on the conservative side. You still make escapement and have a fishery to enjoy. Plunker, do you have something against cnr? Have never seen a post from you with anything positive to say about it. Could it be plunking is not as effective under selective rules.

Im still confused, Can we fish upstream from the dalles bridge....As to the original post all the steel head that are not fincliped have to be released all the time...so CnR is not going to kille that many

yes, up stream of the Dalles bridge Skagit,Sauk open,release wild fish,no bait,Cascade system is closed

skydriftin - I'll choose to ignore your wandering from the subject of this thread. Your survival percentage estimates are not disputed by me or by the agency you choose to discredit in spite of the vast number of experts in their employ.

To continue with the numbers theme...
If it is predicted that 6000 fish might return and the "surplus" is 100 fish and the margin of error is ±20% then... The predicted return is between 4800 and 7200 and the "surplus" becomes something from a deficit of 1100 fish less than the escapement to 1300 fish in excess.

Are you advocating fishing on stocks with predicted returns that might be below spawning goals by as much as 18%?

And... Should we direct greater than usual pressure towards these marginal numbers of fish?

Plunker if only 4800 return thats the 80% of wild escapement required for a cnr fishery according to your " vast number of experts". I still think you're angry cuz you won't be able to anchor a large gob of eggs and spinglo in your favorite hole, but to attack the WSC over it is wrong.

Darin - My two favorite fishing methods for rivers are plunking and tossing hardware and only with single hooks. While Plunking, either with or without bait, I rarely hook a fish deeply and get them in quickly. With spoons and spinners I hook nearly ¼ of my fish in the eye, tongue, gill or stomach, play them longer, and release many that will die because they are illegal to retain. Sad but true.

Skydriftin - If I may, I'll quote myself:

Where is the Wild Steelhead Coalition when we need them?
Why are they not acting to stop this travesty?
Perhaps an explanation is in order?

That hardly resembles an attack but it may be construed as a plea for help.

You have still failed to reveal whether or not you approve of this fishery as have the members of the WSC. I guess I'll assume you do.

Perhaps your greed to catch outweighs your commitment towards conservation.

plunker, you ever notice how everyone thinks the way the state manages fish is screwed up until it comes to a cnr season like this then the way they do it is ok.

I am so siick of this!! Why is this state still using mininum esacpment numbers?? understand this is the MININUM number of fish required back to the river to sustain the population. and to top it off they make some wide ranging educated guess prior to the season to see if we might have just enough fish to open a season and maybe kill some.
then after all the fishing is done and all the fish are killed they go out to count the number of redds in the river and find out they overestimated the number of fish by a couple of thousand and now in three(or two or four) years there is no way we can have a season because they guessed wrong. and if it's a low water or a high water year (just what a normal water year is I've never heard or seen) that means more or less fish and seasons. maybe we should face the fact that there are more fisherpersons then there are fish and we can't all go kill a couple or even catch a couple every day. the least the state could do is set the numbers so high that if they are off by several thousand and it floods we can still fish

Plunker, I certainly am in favor of this fishery. I am a member of the WSC, but I do not have the right to speak for them. That said the WSC was founded originally to try to protect fisherys like this one. You also said 1/4 of the fish you hook with spoons and spinners are potentially mortally wounded while rarely so plunking bait or not. Why are you the only angler this is true for? You said you have even hooked fish in their stomach with spoons and spinners, I don't mind a little bs here and there,but this out and out lyins gotta stop. I'm sure you feel that if there is a 100 fish surplus you would rather have that 100 whacked and brought home by 100 anglers in 5 days than have a fishery 2 months long for all to enjoy and have much less impact on the fish. I've shown you the numbers. Even your "vast number of experts" agree, this fishery is a good one. I will post no more on this subject as no amount of research or scientific data can stand up to your opinion, to you.

Rattlefish......you got it! So much for "experts". Disgusts me to my guts to think that minimal escapement is OK with ANYONE, much less fish stewarts.

rattlefish - "Why is this state still using mininum esacpment numbers??"

It's the law! The Boldt Decision and other directives mandate that the co-managers (the state and the tribes) must divide any predicted surplus above agreed upon spawning escapement goals.

The system isn't perfect and they use "optimum", instead of "minimum", escapement numbers. The state is not bound by law to harvest it's half but if an attempt is not made the tribes may take the foregone opportunity.

Fun5Acres - I'm not sure I like the setup myself but I've never known of any suggestion for a better way to devide the fish.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

skydriftin - Thanks for you forthright reply. Bad choice of words on my part where deep or in the throat should have been used instead of stomach.

I must agree that the WSC was originally founded to protect C&R fisheries. Let me add that the driving passion which led to its founding was the result of wrongly blaming over-harvest for the closures of the C&R seasons on the North Sound rivers a couple of years ago.

In truth, the low returns that precipitated those closures were the result of poor egg-hatch or juvenile survival to smolt and even poorer ocean survival of those smolts to returning adults. The returning adults in question were derived from an excellent number of spawning adults four years earlier.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

boater - I've noticed that as well. Most people tend to agree with and grasp upon anything that validates there most passionate and predisposed ideologies. This is called rationalization as compared to analysis.

I suppose you may have also noticed how they transpose their own misconceptions and assumptions about others thereby avoiding the unknown realities that they fear in an attempt to feel correct in their arguments. It is always easier to argue against what you propose the opposing argument to be, thus ignoring the underlying reality.

In this thread I have been accused of having "something against" C&R despite the fact that I release most of the fish that I catch and "angry" because I can't plunk as effectively without bait when, in truth I only intermittently use bait plunking.

Damn! Next thing some dude calls me a liar for admitting that I hook lots of fish in the eye, tongue, gill and throat tossing hardware. Why assume that plunking must kill a greater percentage released fish then tossing hardware when the opposite is obvious to anyone experienced with both methods?

That's simple... Most people tend to agree with and grasp upon anything that validates there most passionate and predisposed ideologies while rejecting that which upsets their comfortable bed of illusion.

Anyone else notice how much free time Plunker has had on his hands since March 1? Don't the Wildcatters have card games at the clubhouse or something to keep you busy?

LOL

Yup!

Bait is legal and it's ok to retain fish including hatchery steelhead, dollies over 20" and cutthroat over 14". I took home a nice 18" nate today. It should make a tasty breakfast.

Yummy!

B Gray you slay me LOL
Plunk; they got to have that C&R season so the Fly fishing industry can stay afloat
:p :p

Oh yeah, the perch analogy. If wild steelhead were as numerous as perch then I'd keep 'em. But perch is some GOOD eatin'.

OH !
now I see we should blame it all on the Indians if we don't kill them they will.


all I'm saying is whatever numbers they are useing are way to low or we would not have a problem because there would be enough fish to spawn to keep the fisherys open.

one outher comment, maybe we in the north sound rivers affected the survival of those eggs and smolts by adversely affecting the health of there mom's and dad's.

what we need is prenatal care for expectant steelhead.

I have no idea how anyone can snag or fatally hook 1/4 of their fish using spoons or spinners. Fished from the usual downstream approach they seem like the least snag-o-genic method to me (aside from float and jig).

Plunker,
Sounds like sour grapes to me, maybe you should try 1/0 instead of 8/0 siwashes that should clear up your problem. It's a shame too because your 1st two posts were very good. Unfortunately your agenda had to come out sooner or later. Something tells me if there was a kill fishery you wouldn't be airing these same complaints about escapement. (it all sounds like wildcat steelhead club propaganda to me)

The only thing these arguments for or against catch and release accomplish is to drive anglers further apart. They solve nothing and change no one’s mind. There are far more serious and important problems facing our steelhead then whether one should practice catch and release or not.

I do agree with plunker on one thing. With all of the other north end rivers being closed the Skagit should be closed also. Leaving the Skagit open even for a catch and release season puts to much pressure on an already questionable steelhead return.

Steelnerves-Darin, how is the cnr fishery on the skagit going to improve the fishery on this river for the future ?, the fact is that the run is low and killing fish just to have a cnr fishery does not make any sence. is this your idea of "good managment" ?

If I am not mistaken they lowered the escapement on the Skagit system from 8500 to 6000 this year. If they lowered the escapement simply to have a fishery someone should be shot.

Vic - I think it was two years ago and it was reduced due to pressure from the local tribal cooperative.

boater - I think "Steelnerves-Darin A.B." decided to eat his words. Might be that his buddies at Washington Trout are coaching him in communications. Never loosely reveal you real agenda publicly cause it might come back around. Sneaky huh!

Kerry - Since you brought it up.

It's not the arguments for or against catch and release that drive anglers further apart. It's when one user group tries to impose their ethical choices upon everyone else at the expense of their fishing opportunities.

No one, to my knowledge, has ever spoken against C&R although some of us will argue for our opportunity to retain fish from healthy stocks.

The anti-retention groups remind me of the anti-gun freaks.

Hey Plunker,


I own land in the Okanogan and am a hunter appreciator so pi$$ off and stop guessing peoples agendas until you know the person. Hey, you couldn't even put up your email on this board huh,(how about a real name too or are you afraid everyone will know who you really are?) you must be a coward on this board -like a terrorist is! On the subject of GUESSING peoples agenda's Serve jail time there Plunker? I'm "GUESSING" your a racist, bigoted, abusive, wife beatin', trash leaving and corrupt individual!--- Quit picking on people and work with people. Show us that you re more intelligent and thoughtful. I nkow your intelligent.

I qoute one of the other posters here on a different thread saying,
"The original subject of this post has been lost

I have bonked my share of Nates in the past ....none sine 91.

Times have changed and so should this narrow minded idea ..........wild fish numbers are NOT increaseing and by continuing to impact this fishery .........We are only stealing from our children.

others have choosen to use this as a media for there their little "web games"..stir the Shiit kind of thing,He only wants a reaction
by responding to his meat mentallity you are all playing into his hand,which is not so busy now .......since his Card ran out

makeing a turd out of a Wild fish is wrong
Plunk...if you can really taste the differnce between wild and hatchery,I've got a real Wild trout you can taste..........Os
--------------------
Team RiverDawg
Silent Approach Pro-Staff silentapproach.com
N.W.O.


Release all Wild Fish"
Most people here have a much different stance than you re wild fish retention " Just look at the header on this page and you'll see Bob put up a ad/link for the "Wild Steelhead Coalition". Why don't you tell Bob and the moderators to take a hike there buddy boy! Oh, and take a look at the results of the poll on the Chehalis as proof of my hypothesis... You must have been in the very small minority if you even took the time to vote..... go read the end Conclusion of Dave Vedder's book called "Float Fishing for Steelhead Technique & Tackle" and tell me what you think.

Personal attacks beget personal defenses!
In the end, it's about fishing first and not killing/catching! Otherwise we would have called it "Catching & Eating".
(Yes, if fish numbers are VERY, VERY healthy maybe keep WF but if not can't do that can't we atleast FISH even if we can't keep? All you got to do is modify your gear a little... And if your a good fishermen -a real fishermen who is patient you should have no problem catching fish if they are in the river. I'd rather have some sorta season/more days on the water to "fish' than none at all!) Go fish a planted lake for food or when the hatchery fish run on certain rivers. Proven fact, Washington's Wild fish ARE in decline!
Ignorance is Bliss -especially in the case of people like Plunker.
you throw fuel on the fire and it only serves to engulf us!

Sincerely & Disrespectfully, DB

I don't have buddies as you call-em' at Washington Trout, matter of fact recently was the first time I ever wrote them or spoke with them.... I'm independent and am not a member of any "fishing organization".

P.S. Sorry for the post Bob(and everyone else), but you got some real unfriendly folks on here. They could give a damn about anyone else but themselves. It's like that kid recently who posted and a bunch of people used personal attacks at him. ... Can't we look to the future more positively?

Darin, I think I have the same thoughts and feelings as you do on this subject, but your steppin over the line bru. Ignorant attitudes like plunkers will make you angry to the 10nth degree but violence is not the answer. We just have to hope people like him are a dying breed, besides its obvious to me his skull is so thick even an old fashion ass whuppin would have little effect

Skydriftin,

Sorry for that, I've calmed down. He'll get his one day....... I shouldn't worry about it.
Sincerely, DB

Plunker,

You can choose to fish the c&r season or not. No one is going to force you. Why don’t you accept the fact that there will be certain seasons and areas designated catch and release.

You and others who repeatedly engaged in arguments over catch and release verses catch and kill only drive the wedge deeper between the various user groups. I wager you nor has anyone else involved in these arguments convinced one person to change their opinion one way or the other.

Kerry,

"It's not the arguments for or against catch and release that drive anglers further apart. It's when one user group tries to impose their ethical choices upon everyone else at the expense of their fishing opportunities.

No one, to my knowledge, has ever spoken against C&R although some of us will argue for our opportunity to retain fish from healthy stocks."

This thread has gone beyond reason but once again I'll say that my disagreement is with those wacko's who want all areas designated catch and release. In my opinion they are selfish pigs. 'nuff said! Done with this thread.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Darin Brenner,

I'm sorry if you are angry with yourself for the things that you said earlier...
The things you said in the two posts that you removed.
The bigger thing to do would have been to apologize or clarify any misnomers.

Get your bong out and take a couple of deep breaths and then re-assess your feelings.
Such deep spiritual anger can only lead to the disintegration of your physical heath.
Find a good spiritual councilor or other mental health professional.
It might be cheaper than needing a defense attorney.

At 31 you're still young. Get help while there is still hope.

You might also consider removing your threats. You won't be able to keep your guns
or shoot anyone after being arrested for a felony.

Plunker,
Look do you really think I'd shoot somebody(yea you probably do )...No,.... I can give you a list of my references and people who know me who'd support me and know my decency and respect for people. You were attacking, so I responded by forceful defense back at you. You upset me and other folks and I felt like the ol' kid again ready for a school fight! Bringing up the fact that I pulled my replies off wasn't helpful -after the fact.

It sounded like you might be a bigoted person though as you made the comment/comparison about anti-gun people being the same people as anti-keep fishing folks and that is untrue and totally unfair.

I don't think I need a spiritual counselor as I am a Jew who attends services and practices peaceful ways of living. Again, you are "guessing" who I am and not addressing the truths. Like I said, I was "GUESSING" who you were to merely show that your biase was straying into gray areas that do not have merit or truth to them. And again you used "guessing" -assuming to describe me as a drug user -I do not use drugs nor ever will. That was kinda funny though! Do you not like the truth? Yes, I deleted my earlier posts Because I could see it was rediculous to leave my arguments on this thread -arguements going no where..... I should have just not posted and kept my thoughts and frustrations to myself. I did think you were being unfair to some people though including me.....that's probably why I spoke up! Go look at the poll.... I rebute my hasty comments I made earlier in anger and have deleted them respectfully. I respect the fact that you believe in what you stand for but why go about it criticizing others in such a degrading fashion? I will forget about this arguement and I will pass my forgiveness on.... I hope Bob deletes this thread....it's just a headache to anyone reading it!
Enough said, DB
P.S. By the way, where did you dig up my last name?

Plunker,

Glad to see you are still out there fighting the fight. While you and I have not agreed on some key points over the years, I always enjoy the debate. I would sincerely be quite sad if some hothead attempted to harm you. Besides, with you gone, the most articulate voice for Catch and Kill would be gone and I would be forced to listen to countless renderings of "I'm gonna eat them before the *&((($##***ing tribes do". Where's the sport in that?

For those that disagree with Plunker:
While you might not respect his conclusions, at least admire his articulate questions. If you can not defend your position against his, then face the fact he might just be right. Also know that he enjoys stirring the pot so ignoring him might serve you better than threatening him.

sinktip

Darin, I keep tellin ya brother ya can't argue with this guy . He only hears what he wants to.

"You can choose to fish the c&r season or not. No one is going to force you. Why don’t you accept the fact that there will be certain seasons and areas designated catch and release."

Tell me what the difference is in you telling people that c&r is wrong and should not be allowed unless when you can kill one and the c&r folks saying killing a fish is wrong and you should not fish unless you c&r? And don't tell me it is some moral thing. That’s a cop out. We talking about fishing, not screwing your sister. Although I practice c&r in that area also. Your howling over c&r is no different then the c&r folks howling over you killing one. Both of you are trying to tell the other what to do.

Thanks Sky, you're right I think I'll go fishing or do something with my family.... leave the bad politics up to guys that like to stir up fights and the worst in people.

Good Fishing to you, Darin