Good question FCTS. It's really only on the Cow do you see the 8-10' Leaders on a regular, daily basis, used by many folks in a given area. So much so, that this technique has become a "standard" for this river.

Maybe in Washington State, we should call it "cowing", and not flossing/lining.

Oh sure, I've seen lining/flossing/snagging on all our WA rivers, but not like the cowing crowd on the Cow.

I'd say the Cow is the only one I know of.

Brilliant Parker! Simply Brilliant......

I do refer to the them as the "COW" leaders, In fact, i think i could probably prepackage these leaders and spend half the year at BC or Barrier selling 'em and make a killing...

Parker

I usually do not like to butt heads with you! But you are wrong on this issue when you say; " It's really only on the Cow do you see the 8-10' Leaders on a regular, daily basis, used by many folks in a given area. So much so, that this technique has become a "standard" for this river."

Parker, you appear to know more about fish then most casual fishermen do. That may be because of your education, or the place that you work for!

But sometimes you also appear to talk about a river that you do not fish very frequently or do not know that much about. I fish the Cowlitz more then most who post on this board do, with the exception of just maybe a few. I do not normally fish Blue Cr. more then once a year from the bank. But I do fish the Cowlitz many more time then you probably do!

So here's my question to you Parker; Other then the 2 to 6 guys that may fish this way at Blue Cr, and maybe the 2-6 guys that may fish this way at the Barrier Dam, WHO are "ALL OF THOSE OTHERS" that apparently are now giving the Cowlitz (according to your version) as being the proclaimed linners/flossers of the state? Do you really think that is not a common practice in other smaller rivers that you prefer not to mention, that this does not also occur?

Sometimes the Cowlitz takes a "wrong wrap" when it should not! Many other smaller rivers have their own "local problems", and many also may unfairly take fish every season in "their" own ways and methods, but most people would rather turns their heads and focus this practice only on other larger fished rivers such as the Cowlitz!

Because of the large number of hatchery fish that we get at the Cowlitz, It becomes a simple target for people to shoot at. The problems on the Cowlitz are only a cover up or shield for all the other smaller rivers that are not hit as hard but fished in the same way!!

If all this stuff is so illegal, unethical, or whatever, why then aren't there more Gamies out here making their quota?

Long before I even knew what flossing or lining was, it was going on at many smaller rivers like the Satsop, its mouth, and other tributaries on the Chehalis.

The Cowlitz has its problems, but they are really no different then many other smaller rivers.

We just get a hell of a lot more fishermen here (thanks to Tacoma Power) because we have so many hatchery fish!

Sorry Parker, but you went a little bit too far on this one in my opinion!

Cowlitzfisherman

I actually just edited my post. Was long. But cowlitzfisherman, I realize you work/have worked for the state. But I've fished the Chehalis system for about 25 years, my Dad well over 55 years, and my grandpa before he died almost 80 years. Not one of us had ever used long leaders, and we'd had only seen maybe a handful of guys over the years using these long leaders on the Sop, or other Chehalis tribs. Have had property on the Nooch almost as long as I've fished the system, so have had alot of time to fish/explore these rivers. Funny thing, the few guys I've seen fishing there with the long leaders I've seen fishing at BC. Rest of guys used standard 3' leaders (give or take a bit). I'd say that's a bad assumption on your part. I know I didn't spend everyday there (I lived just off the Puyallup River) but spent most of my weekends, holidays, and vacations fishing the OP/Chehalis system. Can truly say long leadered fisherman were well in the minority. Now, summer conditions with gin clear conditions with traditional flow levels, you'll see longer leaders, but maybe 5' max. Rarely over that. And that's usually a presentation thing. But only in gin clear. Once the water stained, the leaders shortened. If you want to simply say you saw people with long leaders there, well you can say alot about any river in that situation. Every system has it's share of people. From fly fisherman to gear guys, snaggers to people who follow the book of the law. The comparisons go on and on. It's part of a true society that you have a diversity on the river. But most have seen more "flossers/longliners" in the BC area of the Cow then on most river systems. I'd say the Sop was a very bad example. Most of the snaggers there use heavy hooks and sight the fish and snag. They don't long line. Spent enough time floating that river, and know that they don't floss, they snag. More fish dragged out sideways/backwards.

Don't mean to gripe. But these are rivers my family has fished religiously since my Grandpa first came here back in the early 1910's. I'm really surprised my family just didn't move and stay there in first place. But grandpa worked for Boeing, so wanted as little a drive as possible, so he chose a halfway point (Fife). But I lived in both places. Fished the Puyallup, Green, Nasty during schooldays, fished the Peninsula rest of the time.

For myself. We rarely ever fished the Cow. We fished the Toutle alot before it blew, but that was always a special trip. Mostly OP for us on weekends. But I know that we only fished the Cow a few times over my fishing career. But I have personally seen more then just 6-10 guys long lining. That's an understatement. Wouldn't you say it's odd (but could happen, there is a chance) that everytime I've fished BC guys had long leaders? Even when I fished Cowtilla last year, saw quite a bit. Now, can I name you every guy who was doing it? Um, no, not God here. But I can recall at least 20 guys with long leaders. That was a short stretch too, since my sled carb intakes seized on me and I could only do ONE run!!! If I just so happen to only have shown up the few times all these guys did, I wish I would've known so I would've bought a lottery ticket. But, as I said. The Cow SHOULD NOT be known for a couple holes. I know it's a big river. But as with most bad apples, it spoils the bunch. It's spoiled the rep for the whole river over one or two slots. I don't agree with it. I also know A TON of guys who fish it without having to overdue the leaders and catch alot of fish. But most fish away from the hordes.

No mean to offend you cowlitzfisherman, but you are talking about an area that I can say "I've fished more then..." as you do the Cow. My Dad could really log the miles on most here, my grandpa, well, that's a whole nother story. Wish I could talk my uncles out of his pictures of limits off the Chehalis and Nooch from back in the early 20th century. Some of those limits and sizes of fish back in the early 1900's were incredible.

Plain and simple. If the method in which you are fishing the fish do not intentionally grab ahold of your lure bait or fly with their mouth then you are snagging and are therefore a snagger. There is no other way to put it.. you are what you do.. The deffinition of a snagger is one who snaggs. Period!! You cannot snag fish and not be a snagger!!
NO matter how much it's become accepted practice it's still snagging, still wrong. still unsportmanlike and still illegal!

If that offends you then quit doing it..

While i agree it could be illegal i have yet to see a gamer enforce it. I have seen on the other hand tickets issued for the retention of foul hooked fish. Ive also heard the officer say "why did you keep that one, because a few fish ago you had one hooked near the mouth which was legal...." He was talking to the guy he had night scoped on the Kalama in the bushes while this guy was catching and releasing fish untill he was ready to go home and kept the next fish, that happened to be foul hooked, hence the ticket because he bonked it and left. I believe this ticket was $400 some odd dollars. So either its up to the descretion of the officer or its legal as long as you do not retain a snagged fish or the officers are ignorant of the law?

What a joke.Is flossing fishing or snaging?I definatly know who the reel fishermen are now.

If it isn't IN the mouth it isn't a legal fish. No matterr how you try to justify it it won't change the fact. Simple as that. I bet if a few more flossing(snagging) tickets were wrote we wouldn't have the cowlitz zoo problem. 90% of those idiots can't fish.

Hatchery fish are there for the SPORT fisherman to catch not the snaggers.

amen glowball!

I never said snagging wasn't common place in other rivers. What I said was that snagging with a 8-10' leader wasn't common place in other rivers. A 6-8' leader is just fine to snag/floss on all our rivers. I see that a lot. What I do not see are the shoulder to shoulder guys with 10' leaders flossing away on other rivers. I have, and do see that on the Cow. That's the *only* river where I have seen multiple people consistantly use this long leader technique.

Sure, I might not fish the Cow that much, but when I have, I have witnessed this cowing technique by multiple folks.



Sure, I agree, but that's not what this thread is about. FCTS just asked as simple question. He didn't want to hear everyone's rants, feelings, and all the other banter that's on this thread.




I fully agree with you, CFM, but these are just rants, rants, and more rants. How does this answer FCTS original question? How about we save this for a thread that is appropriate.

All I did was answer FCTS's question, CFM. How is that going a little bit too far?

OK, CFM, let's hear all these rivers where I can go to RIGHT NOW and can CONSISTANTLY see MULTIPLE people using leaders in the 8'10' range and flossing fish??????

Uh huh. That's what I thought. Oh, and don't say the Wind, as the folks down there are too damn cheap for a 8-10' leader! A 6' leader down there seems to snag just fine! Again, I don't see the long leaders on the Wind...and it's a Snaggers Paradise.

Maybe folks should just answer the original questional to people's posts and not go on emotional tirades over other issues.

Sometimes, simple posts require simple answers. Not every post is a rebellion against The Man.

I just answered the original question. That will never be going to far....

I have fished every river major river in the olympic mountains and have never witnessed this long leader b.s.

From the looks of it, I'm pretty darn good @ starting lengthy discussions.

Parker, I thank you for sticking up for the original intent of this thread. I truly anticipated only a few responses from this one. I'd love to hit the river with you sometime. Rich G. speaks very highly of you.......
Cuttie

Sure, any time FCTS! Maybe we can convince Pat to take us springer fishing. Pat, you up for a rematch of last year? I *promise* I won't hit the only rock in the frog water stretch again!

Original Quote from Glowball:
If it isn't IN the mouth it isn't a legal fish. No matterr how you try to justify it it won't change the fact. Simple as that. I bet if a few more flossing(snagging) tickets were wrote we wouldn't have the cowlitz zoo problem. 90% of those idiots can't fish.

Hatchery fish are there for the SPORT fisherman to catch not the snaggers.

MY QUOTE: "PERFECTLY PUT!!"

Parker

One quick answer before I go any further. You asked me; " OK, CFM, let's hear all these rivers where I can go to RIGHT NOW and can CONSISTANTLY see MULTIPLE people using leaders in the 8'10' range and flossing fish??????"

Ask any shall receive! Here is your own answer from an earlier post by you, Quote; Oh sure, I've seen lining/flossing/snagging on all our WA rivers, but not like the cowing crowd on the Cow.

Parker, you know that Flossing/lining only works well when fish are stacked up. Thus, anytime the large runs of hatchery fish return, you can likely find or see flossing/lining occurring. As just one quick example, try viewing the meat hole or the hatchery at the Lewis when the silvers are in! Or try the salmon hatchery at the Elochoman or the Neselle or the North fork of the Toutle and the Green. It may not be happening "right now" but it will be happening soon . . . trust me!

Ok, I got to walk the rest of the guys through the park one more time or they won't be able to go to sleep on this flossing/lining thing! Maybe you may want to ride along with me and enjoy the ride! If you do, try to roll down that tinted window and look real closely, and maybe then you will see even more questions answered!

Someone, (not you Parker) may have been insinuating that I may be a promoter of flossing/lining . . . if so, dream on!

Now back to flossing/lining:

Can any of you guys please explain to me how one person can say that another person who is using an 8-12 foot leader with a "corky" or yarn attached to it is breaking the law?

Forget you're BS, and please tell all of us what law, rule or regulation supports YOUR opinion, that someone is breaking the "law" or someone is breaking some "unwritten ethical fishing rule" because they are using a 8-12 foot leader! Again, forget the "standard" BS attempt by repeating that worthless lamebrain ambiguous statement in the regs that says; "Attempting to take a fish with a hook and line in such a way the fish does not voluntarily take the hook(s) in its mouth".

Maybe Parker, or some other fishery expert can you explain or tell us why so many older studies that were supposedly done by science over years had claimed that once a salmon enter the fresh water, their stomachs start to close shut! Has that theory changed now? If it hasn't, why then would a fish want to "voluntarily" eat or bit your guys bait? Was it just a "bad habit" that the fish can't get over?

By the way, what moral law says that it is unethical to attempt to hook a fish in its mouth? Do you really think that fish "voluntarily" takes anyone's hook? Don't you try to fool the fish with covering your hooks with some kind of disguise like a natural looking bait? Do you think that fish will "voluntarily" eat baits if he knew there was a hidden hook in it?

What a bunch of crap! The only reason he takes that hook is because we "the fishermen" have cleverly disguised that damn hook with a piece of bait, egg, feather, shrimp, hearing, sardine, or whatever!

That's a good one! Who makes up these "ethical rules" and where in the hell can you get a clear copy of them (you know, the one that everyone can agree to)?


Steelheader69:

Somewhere you must have misunderstood me. I have never said that I have worked/ or have worked for the State! I have "voluntarily" worked with many of WDFW staff, but I have never worked for WDFW or the State.

If you recall, when referred to the Satsop, I was referring to the "Mouth of the Satsop" where it runs into the Chehalis. The upper Satsop is so darn small most of the time, that you got to step out of the way of the drift boats! The last time I was at the mouth (about 2 or 3 years ago) there were still plenty of guys that were flossing and lining! Like I said, it only happens when the fish are stacked up. But long before they were using those longer leaders, there was a "ton of fish" being flossed with the shorter leader on the Satsop.

The way I remember the upper part of the Satsop, at lots of places, a 10 foot leader would almost put you all the way across the river. Has that changed?

Cowlitzfisherman

Actually, you'd have to be a lamebrain NOT to understand that very SIMPLE to understand rule. There's NOTHING ambiguous about it.

And you're playing a semantics game with the "voluntarily" part. You know what "voluntarily" means, and so does everyone else........so why try to muddy the waters? Did the fish bite your rig, or did you just stick your rig in it's mouth? It's not a real hard question to answer.

That reg. is crystal clear. Any confusion must stem from a failure to understand simple English.

There is no law that says you can't use a 10 foot leader, but there will be someday. Apparently the fish do bite the hook quite often or else I'm just imagining those fish that have the hook in there mouth.

If you feel good about snagging fish and telling people "Yep got my limit again Bob how about you" oh well. Obviously myself along with several other members on this board have a conscience and go by our own code of conduct that is becoming less and less common on our rivers.

I would like to thank those of you who are trying to justify flossing for the good laugh you are giving me. Nice to know who the real sportsmen are and aren't.

Dan

So I take it that you are saying, or at lease insinuating, is that all WDFW Officers and State Trooper are lamebrains! (well may not all)

How else is someone going to interpret your statement; "Actually, you'd have to be a lamebrain NOT to understand that very SIMPLE to understand rule. There's NOTHING ambiguous about it."

As just one example; since you can regularly go to places such as the "Barrier Dam" and Blue Cr. etc., etc, and watch the local game warden or the local State Trooper who writes tickets almost daily for snagging just sitting there and watching the guys who are using those 8-12 foot leaders flossing/lining fish after fish and do nothing about it. So are they lamebrains for not writing everyone tickets? According to what you have said, the law is the law!


Why is it Dan, that they do nothing about it if as you say "it so SIMPLE"? If that rule was so "very simple" or it wasn't "ambiguous", why do you think that they are not enforcing it? We all known that WDFW and the counties all need the extra money . . . right?

Couldn't it just be that I may have been right, (oh no) and that they don't want to go to court and have the judge through their case right out of the court rooms, and look like fools at the same time. You tell me! Sounds like a no brainier to me!


That's a nother a good one too Dan! You said;" Did the fish bite your rig, or did you just stick your rig in it's mouth? It's not a real hard question to answer."

So you tell me the answer!

You're an experienced "free drifter" so why do you "think" that when you are free drifting from a boat that the "bite" feel so very much different then the "bite" that one feels when they are "drift fishing" from the bank, especially on winter run fish, when the water temps are really much cooler?

Haven't you ever wondered why, when free drifting from your boat, that the "bite" feels nothing like the bite when you are fishing off the bank? It has always been my experience (99% of the time anyway) that the "bite" is felt as a slow "pumping kind of motion" when free drifting. One could certainly form and/or make the opinion that you have dragged your bait into that fishes mouth while he was breathing and that the "tugging motion" is when the fish starts feeling the "line drag" and then starts to swim back to the spot upriver that it was being pulled from.

If you think that I am just blowing hot air about this one too, then please explain why any good free drifting guide is able to "see" his client's "bite" so well he can tell them when to "set the hook!" He can tell when his client is getting a bite just by watching their rod tips starting to do that famous free drifting "pumping" motion. Remember, Dan, I have over 10 years experience of watching client's to support what I have just stated! I also know that you will likely disagree, but that is nothing new either. Also, why do you think that the guides hook a large majority of the fish for their clients when free drifting? Why do you think that smaller baits and #4 hooks work so well when free drifting from a boat then from the bank most of the time?

You really got to ask yourself if you really want to be fair, are those fish really eating my bait all the time, or are some of them just getting lined when they open their mouths to breathe. By far, most of the fish that you catch when free drifting are almost always hooked in the corner of their mouths on the same side that you are drifting, and that makes the lining thing even more convincing.

Anyway, nothing to get mad about, so I am looking foreword to your reply!

Like most things, we all have different opinions and I am sure that your opinion will not always be the same as mind is, so take nothing personal about this debate about flossing/lining!!

Hey Glowball: It's a heck of a lot easier to debate the pro and cons of flossing/lining here on this board then to be setting in a court room trying to prove your point in front of a judge/jury. Flossing/lining, like it or not is going to be around for a long, long time, but I believe that a lot of good information/opinions has been exchanged about the subject.


Cowlitzfisherman

You guys are all stupid if you think that you've never flossed a fish. If you've every thrown corky/yarn and caught fish I guarantee at least some of them were flossed. Did you check? Like previously mentioned, you don't need a 10 foot leader to floss, heck, I've hooked several fish on the outside of the mouth "WITH EGGS" using three foot leader. Give it up fellas. Come fishing with me. I'll personally inspect each and every fish you land to see if that hook is inside or outside of the mouth. Remember, if it's outside the mouth you have to throw it back because you "snagged it." Give it up. Oh yeah, I guess I'm not a sportsman either. Funny how some "sportsman" know so little about how this whole concept really works.
- I'LL SEE YOU ALL AT THE COWLITZ!!!!!!