I think cohoangler is right on target. The rest of this rant is sour grapes. Change the politicians and the laws before throwing stones too hard at WDFW. But it makes some good sport here on the flame thrower BB.

CFM - I will do my best to answer your questions.

Am I serious? Yes.

Did WDFW promote the idea for a vehicle use permit? Likely. But so what? They don't pass laws. The legislature does. Get it? I'm sure the legislature considers WDFW's opinions but WDFW has no more rights to express their views than you or I.

The excise taxes on hunting and fishing are completely seperate. The hunting taxes are on rifles, bullets, and other hunting gear as authorized by the Pittman-Robertson Act. The fishing taxes are authorized by the Wallop-Breaux Act (formerly Dingle-Johnson Act). The formula and the dispersment are completely different. So if a hunter wants to use a fishing/boating access site (e.g., for duck hunting), they need a permit like everyone else.

Should non-resident have to read the regs before they fish a river just once? Yes! Absolutely yes! They need to know the general regs plus the specific regs for the river they plan to fish. I would agree that if they're planning on fishing the Cowlitz for one day they probably don't need to know the specific regs for the Skagit, or any other river in Washington. But they darn well better know the State-wide rules and the Cowlitz regs before they drop a line in your favorite river. Is there anyone out there who disagrees?

Lastly, you can disagree with WDFW's enforcement priorities. That's a legitimate concern. But you can't disagree that parking without a permit is illegal. Besides, prosecutorial discretion is always within the jurisdiction of the enforcement authorities.

One more small detail to add.

If I'm not mistaken, it's Lewis County, NOT WDFW that receives the funds collected from those parking citations issued, just as it would be Snohomish County receiving the funds if the citations were written on the Skykomish river for example.

4 Salt,

I do believe that you may be right!

It is now my understanding that about 90% of the Vehicle Use Permit" Fines do go to the "local court". That even makes the need for us to purchase these stamps even a bigger scam then I had thought!

Since all the work is done by WDFW, Why in the samhell are we sending the fine money to a local court?

Cowlitzfisherman

I believe that all funds from WDFW citations, including poaching, are collected in the respective counties. I'm not sure about confiscated gear though.

Probably for the same reason that even though the WA State Patrol (a STATE agency, just like WDFW) issues the vast majority of highway traffic citations, it's the respective counties that the violations are committed in that receive the penalty funds. I believe because it's the local municipal courts that adjudicate them.

Didn't you say that the Wardens were being assisted by the County Sheriff's deputies as well?

The WDFW law enforcement officers need to stick to their job, and that's busting big time poachers, Indians, and people illegally selling animal parts. They aren't meter maids. The amount of money we pay in taxes in this state, including license/tag fees is already outrageous. They need to streamline their act and use money wisely instead of whining about not having any money and then cracking the residents with more fees, taxes, etc. That parking permit isn't free, nothing is free, it's figured into the price of the license. It's time to keep invasive government out of our pockets. We need more men like Tim Eyman out there fighting back. We shouldn't even have to pay for a fishing license, if we cut out a few worthless social programs and put the money into the WDFW, problem solved. The anti-business, anti-landowner government in Washington needs a big shake up. More business always equals more tax money. Less regulation is always better for the people and the government. It's too bad the west side of the state is infested with the Puget Sound region of liberals and wacko environmentalists. We need two states, The People's Republic of Puget Sound and the real Washington.

cohoangler

I just went though and read the summaries on both the "Pittman-Robertson Act and the Wallop-Breaux Act" (formerly Dingle-Johnson Act).

Now, more then ever, why in the devil are we paying these addition user fees? With all that tax money, why are we being charge additional fees for parking?

What are we missing here?????

Cowlitzfisherman

I understand that the parking permit idea was to get users other than licensed anglers to also help pay for the public boat launches. However, I'm not so sure that it's just WDFW money that purchases and develops them in the first place. The state Interagency Committee on Outdoor Recreation, or something like that, has often been the source of funds for public access facilities. And I believe IAC's money is appropriated by the state legislature, meaning that the public accesses are acquired with public money from the general fund, and not exclusively from the purchasers of fishing licenses. If the general public buys and develops the accesses in the first place, I've wondered about this "rent" being charged in the form of the parking permit. But I think CFM may have captured it in his reference to parking meters. It's just a revenue collection scheme to raise additional funds from those who don't buy fishing licenses but park in public accesses. Sorta' like day use fees at state parks.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Sounds like a typical government scam.

What do you think is the best way to fund public river-access maintenance, Salmo?

Salmo

Now you're talking!


Cowlitzfisherman

I think we all know that if one tax is eliminated or reduced the politicians find new revenue sources to make up for it and then some. Lots of bills get loaded down with garbage taxes as payoffs for one politician supporting another politicians pet tax scheme. Until and unless we cut spending and raise revenues I would expect more of the same. It's all about raising revenue for one thing or other. Not enough money for fish and wildlife because we overspent on social programs etc etc....

The parking stickers or permits were supposed to level the playing field by making those using the access areas pay a share of the cost and not just us fishermen. Hikers,kayakers and the like also have to have a permit sticker. We get ours with our fishing license and , yes, the cost is figured into the license fee. Those who do not buy a fishing or hunting license still must purchase a permit.

Remember when the intitiative process lowered license tabs to $30? Next thing you know there are tons of other fees to take the place of some of the reduced taxes. Cities raised all kinds of taxes on such things as cell phones to help keep their revenues up to pre-initiative levels.

I think we just keep coming back to the political angle as the root cause of what we are complaining about. I would be willing to bet that those who complain here probably voted for the same rascals who caused the revenue problems in the first place. And you might just continue to complain and vote for the tax and spenders anyway....Run all the businesses out of the state and tax us to death and then wonder why we have stupid parking permits for areas our tax money paid to develop in the first place. Can you say Liberal Democrats? Socialists? Locke, Murray, Inslee,Sims?????Sound Transit?

Are you guys for real?

How about the WDFW charge the going rate for using boat launches. I don't know about the rest of the state but the various Puget Sound launches that I have used in recent years (City, County, State Parks etc) daily launch fees are $5 to $10 per day with annual passes typcially $35 or more. We get a annual pass for free with our license and can buy another for $5. Non-license holders can get a permit for the grand sum of $10. Private access points often charge even more.

Of course if we fishermen were willing to pay for the total cost of upkeeping these areas for all the users those permits would not be needed. However to do so would mean our license fees would have to be considerably higher.

In can remember that in the early 1960s (back in the days when fishing was good and we got value for our $$) when I bought my first fishing license (freshwater) it costed $5.50/year. At that time the minimum wage was $1.25. That meant as a youngster I had to worked for 5.2 hours at the minimum wage to earn enough to pay for my license. Today the minimum wage is $7.01 meaning that one working the same 5.2 hours would earn $36.45, or roughly 1.6 times more than the $21.90 the freshwater cost today.

In comparative $$ today's fees are cheaper than 40 years and still remains the cheapest recreational $$ that I spend. Many of the folks that I talk with expect that their license costs should remain constant or be reduced but at the same time expect that they recieve annual cost of living increases in their own incomes. You think that at least some of you could be consistent.

Regarding the Counties getting the money from fish and game violation fines. As I recall decades ago we (through our elected state legislature) gave the each of the Counties the option of collecting property taxes for Game department land or the fines from fish and game violations. I'm not certain (sure that CFM will correct me if I'm wrong) but WDFW is the only state agency that pays that property tax.

As long as the future of this State's fish and wildlife resources and the recreation they support are dependent the selfish and whinning attitudes expressed by some in this dicussion they are doomed!

Tight lines
Smalma

It sounds that many of you want perfection out of the WDFW. It is never going to happen nor is it ever going to happen with any public agency nor is going to happen with a privately run company nor are you always perfect, Mr. CFM.

So give these guys a break...

It seems to be you want everyone else to be checked but yourself. You ***** about the snaggers and poachers and then complain when you are checked...why is that??

I for one commend the actions that the WDFW is taking to increase enforcement and their presence on our local rivers.

On a related note....

I have run across a game agent 4 times since June 1 on 4 differnt watersheds (3 out of the 4 times it was the same rookie agent).

Recently, I ran across the Sgt. (Randy) based out of Mill Creek and applauded him on a job well done by one his new agents as well as him (I never ever would of expected to run across an agent where I was fishing).

When I feel the WDFW is doing the best they can, I let them know as they take plenty of abuse from all of us.

Holy smokes 4Salt ,
that just made my whole outlook on the blue creek task force even worse that it was. I cant believe that money doesnt go back to wdfw programs! (really I can), but this kind of duky has to stop! they need to quit being pussy cats and go after the big guys for a change. Like I said before using limited resources to bust people that are fishing and forgot to display there sticker, and forgot to punch a fish right away on a hatchery run is sooooooo lame. kinda like a warden I know who spends just about his whole day righting tickets on a terminal fishery while there is snagfest 2002( soon to be snagfest 2003) going on on two native runs that are well within his range! I have seen guys snag fish after fish after fish until there trunk was full of native silvers! I have reported several times and nothing nothing nothing nothing nothing nothing nothing is ever done!!!! I have no respect whatsoever for the wdfw anymore! They need to change period!



Great now its 12:50am and I am all fired up. See what you did.


Sparky, I have seen guys congradulate the warden on the Quil and head right over the hill at the end of the road and snag away. Funny thing is that I noticed there barbed hooks yet the warden did not. I dont even have any special training. Interesting ploy though.

Micro,
I get frustrated there also.I have tried for years to get a gamey to make a showing at a couple of the local native snagfest.They could care less.But then you here about parking games???

Funny how people can complain so much about something they aren't for sure about. Are you a gamie? Do you know what goes on behind the scenes? You only know the small fraction of the pie. Most of which is hearsay from joe blows little brothers girlfriends dad.

You guys would cry if you were hung with a new rope. Take it to the next level. Do something about it if you're not happy.

It's amazing on how everyone dials in on parking permit enforcement and brushes over 2 major points that I brought up on page 1.

1. WDFW officers not knowing that the limit is 3 steelhead on the Cowlitz now.

2. Handing WDFW a major snag and sell violation with the snaggers admitting to me and my clients what there intent was to do with the snagged fish, sell them the C&C Market in Castle Rock. To this day I have contacted WDFW 3 times, they never followed up. It's been 10 months now, so I'm sure my report is as cold as ice by now since I think it was not investigated at all.

Sparkey
Because of your young age, your lack of paying taxes, your lack of knowledge of law, your total lack of dealing with bureaucratic government policies, and your obvious personally attack on me, and your total lack of personally working with the various branches of the government, your remarks speak for themselves, and do not need to be rebutted by me!!

Smalma,

You should know better, so I am not going to let you off the hook so easily! Most of the time we agree on fishery issues and I respect your vast knowledge of the species and for the most part, your knowledge of the fishery management.
But I must draw the line on this one!

You say;

That sounds like the logic of every government bureaucrat that I know! Charge us for something we already have paid for, just to keep your own agency jobs in tack!

You also said;

Who in the devil do you think is paying to keep these faculties up now…the tooth fairly? Who do you think pays the taxes that are authorized by the Wallop-Breaux Act (formerly Dingle-Johnson Act)? Oh yea, that money doesn't count . . . or does it? What hole has that money now been diverted to?

Smalma

This is what we "gave to the counties";

RCW 77.12.201
Counties may elect to receive an amount in lieu of taxes -- County to record collections for violations of law or rules -- Deposit.
The legislative authority of a county may elect, by giving written notice to the director and the treasurer prior to January 1st of any year, to obtain for the following year an amount in lieu of real property taxes on game lands as provided in RCW 77.12.203. Upon the election, the county shall keep a record of all fines, forfeitures, reimbursements, and costs assessed and collected, in whole or in part, under this title for violations of law or rules adopted pursuant to this title and shall monthly remit an amount equal to the amount collected to the state treasurer for deposit in the public safety and education account established under RCW 43.08.250. The election shall continue until the department is notified differently prior to January 1st of any year.
------------------------------------------------
It's the "counties option" to keep or not to keep the money from the fines or the property taxes!

Cowlitzfisherman

Glow
Your right I would be p,o. big time if you used a new rope
There not broke in and strangle ya.
I want a nice used smooth rope
It will just snap your neck.