Grandpa…it's still BS!!!

The coast guard license in "this issue" is really BS, I will place a wager with you that If you picked 5 guides off hand from the water who got their "coast guard" certification within in the last three years and had them take the examine right now, without any pre studying, 4 of them would most likely fail it!

I all most decided to get a coast guard license before I retired, but I figured it wasn't worth spending the additional $1000-plus dollards to get it. It would have also required me to spend a week down in Vancouver sitting behind a computer reading all the answers to the coast guards test! I did study most of the same books that the rest of them did, so I do know quite a little about what the requirements were back then. All of my younger fishing friends who are guides, all hold different degrees of coast guard licenses now. That's the way it was about 7 years ago, and I will bet you that nothing has changed in their exams since then.

Two thirds of what you are taught is "common information" for people who run the seas often. You had to learn how to read charts, plot courses, learn the different markers, buoys, whistle, lights, and learn the "rules of road" for marine waters.

So don't tell me how secure everyone is just because a person "holds" the right piece of paperwork. For your information, (as of 7 years ago) the people that "trained" you for the exams, used copies of every single coast guard test (at the time I think there were 3 different tests) and gave you the answers! That is how you were "trained" for getting you coast guard license! It's been 7 years ago, so maybe they do something different now, buy I won't bet on it. They made you learn every one of the questions on the tests so that no matter which one of the tests that they may give to you, you would already know the correct answers. They did actually show you "how to read and plot courses". Are you feeling much more secure and safer now? Now that's real seamanship that you can bet your life on …right?

Most of the training schools just make you drum through there computers, and make you answer all the tests questions until you feel that you have memorized all the correct answers. Now has that all changed? I do not know! I would like to hear from a few of our guide members, and see just how much things "have changed" in the last 7 years.

There was never any training in or on the water, it was all done on paper and computers, so feel as safe as you want to grandpa. I will take the guide who actually has "the time on the water" any day of the week compared to the guide that just hold a piece of paper that he has just paid $1000 bucks to get! If it was me, I would not go out with any guide who I though did not know the waters well that he was taking me to. I don't care how many pieces of paper he has! My life is far more important to me then a piece of paper that that says John Doe is certified. If I wanted a guide to fish the salt, I would ask around before I made my choice. And that statement comes from over 15 years of commercial fishing in the ocean.

The sea is not "a river" and they both are to be respected in their own ways. Just because a guide is a "great river guide"; it means almost nothing when he encounters the sea and all her little "tricks".

And finally, I thought you were a BIG SUPPOPRTER OF FREE INTERPRISE grandpa!!

How does that work when only a "few" people are allowed to hold special licenses that only allow a few special interests to hold? It sure seems to me that you're speaking out of the corner of your mouth sometimes. How does limiting the opportunity to purchase a charter license support that theory? How can you preach one thing, and then say that it's ok to limit a person's right to do the same kind of business for the same price? Of all people to preach ….grandpa!! Selling those charter licenses are not free enterprise, it's called a monopoly!

Oh, I forgot your golden rule! If you are holding the gold (charter license) you get to make the rules!! Like I said, it's all bull $hit and people can read between the lines on this issue.


Cowlitzfisherman

Aunty

Your right on the money!!!


Cowlitzfisherman

AuntyM - Lots of people without boats or pals with boats can't afford to hire either charters or guides.

That's just not fair either.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could just add a 20-30% user tax to all guided and chartered trips to operate a state funded boating access program for this underprivileged minority?

How about if it were privatized?

In all seriousness I must agree that the Oregon/Washington rules should concur. I can understand why the Columbia might be considered charter territory with the shipping lanes, ocean hazards and the commercial nature of the fishing there but what about Lake Washington?

I personally believe that personal use fishermen should have first priority with the citizens 50% of any excess salmon and that only those fish beyond the predicted personal use catch should be given to the just-for-fun recreationalists and commercial interests such as guides, charters and commodity fishermen.

The cap on charter licenses isn't about saving fish, it's about money for the holders of the existing charter licenses. Capping the number of holders restricts competition, which keeps prices and income higher for the holders of the existing licenses. On the Columbia, in particular, with the Oregon licenses being unrestricted, the regulation is really meaningless.

I guess I can't get too enthusaistic about the gamies chasing these guys down in these days of tough budgets. Is this the best use of our tax dollars?

It's easy to see what is really going on though. Those forfeitures of boats that the article discusses? Those funds typically go directly to the department, as opposed to fines paid, which go back to the State's general fund. This is about the department making a little money. That's not right, whether you agree with taking these guys off the river or not.

Got a first hand report today from a friend who was fishing out of Chinook all week. He saw what he described as tons of law enforcement of all types in many different uniforms busting lots of people and confiscating one boat right after the other. The paying customers were separated from the guides and the guides were handcuffed and taken away. Their boats and gear were taken away too. I guess there was a massive enforcement show of force. Guys getting boats taken away for having over limit catches hidden under the floor and every other abuse of the regs and laws you can imagine. So much for the lack of enforcement cries....

As far as the guide license issue goes I think Oregon and Washington need to get together on this. I think CFM needs to get out the research books and see who was behind the law concerning guides below the Longview bridge and see what the reason for passing the law was. No rhetoric on this one just the law as it was proposed and written.

Grandpa

You know as well as I do who was pushing this sting on the guides! Do "Carter license" guys ring a bell?


Cowlitzfisherman

Cowlitz - The "inside information" I got from my "contacts" is that the entire sting operation was a cover for a covert sweep to remove any possible boating suicide bombers from the big river in preparation for Bush's visit last week. They had intelligence indicating that some terrorist operators were posing as guides.

Seems to have been a good idea because Bush made it safely back to Texas in time for the traditional weekend BBQ

Plunker

You just blow your cover!!

My sources told me that Al Gore was the one who was behind this whole mess! I hear that he also holds one of those special "charter licenses"

Cowlitzfisherman

Gore also invented the "NET"!

If he had not have done that the commodity fisherman would have had a much harder time getting all of our fish.

And Bill almost got inter Monica!

So if Bill could have gotten together earlier with Al and joined forces, they could have invented the Inter-net

Now I am with you!

Cowlitzfisherman

Dang it Cowlitz! Now you blew your cover too!
I guess we'll have to turn the operation over to Agent 99 if we can get our shoes working.

But... Back to the issue.

For those interested I have compiled a bit more info pertinent to the questions raised here.

The rules are quite clear so I feel that the blatant violations are inexcusable. Anyone who has or continues to operate a guide or charter service without fulfilling all of the requirements must be of poor moral character and have total disregard of the law. They also give the sportfishing community a bad reputation and are a potential danger to their clients.


From WDFW: http://www.wa.gov/wdfw/lic/charter_guides.htm

*Can a holder of an Oregon guide or charter license pick up passengers in Washington?
No.

*Can a holder of an Oregon guide license operate in Washington waters of the Columbia River?
This question is under review by WDFW. More information will be available in the near future.


REQUIREMENTS TO OBTAIN A LICENSE
You must complete an application, submit the appropriate fees, provide a copy of your vessel registration or documentation if applicable, and meet the following criteria:

Game Fish Guide (residents $180; non-residents $600)
*If you use a motorboat in your business to carry passengers for hire on federally navigable waters you must be licensed by the U.S. Coast Guard and meet certain safety requirements.
*If you use a motorboat in your business to carry more than 6 passengers for hire on waters within the jurisdiction of the state of Washington that are not federally navigable waters,
a) your boat must be inspected annually by the U.S. Coast Guard or the Department of Labor and Industries, and
b) the boat operator must be licensed by the U.S. Coast Guard or the Department of Labor and Industries.

Professional Salmon Guide (residents $150; non-residents $730)
*You must be at least 16 years of age.
*If you use a motorboat in your business to carry passengers for hire on federally navigable waters you must be licensed by the U.S. Coast Guard and meet certain safety requirements.
*If you use a motorboat in your business to carry more than 6 passengers for hire on waters within the jurisdiction of the state of Washington that are not federally navigable waters,
a) your boat must be inspected annually by the U.S. Coast Guard or the Department of Labor and Industries, and
b) the boat operator must be licensed by the U.S. Coast Guard or the Department of Labor and Industries.

Salmon Charter (renewal fee: residents $480; non-residents $785)
*You must designate on the license a vessel that you will use.
*If you use a motorboat in your business to carry passengers for hire on federally navigable waters you must be licensed by the U.S. Coast Guard and meet certain safety requirements.
*You must renew your license each year. A salmon charter license that is not renewed each year shall not be renewed further.
*New salmon charter licenses will not be issued. However, licenses may be transferred.


U.S. COAST GUARD OPERATOR'S LICENSE.
*If you use a motorboat in your business to carry passengers for hire on federally navigable waters:
You must be licensed by the U.S. Coast Guard and meet certain safety requirements. Federally navigable waters include many rivers and lakes, such as the Columbia River, Lake Washington, the Skagit River, and others. A list of navigable waters can be found at http://www.uscg.mil/d13/Exhibit11K1.doc. Additional information on U.S. Coast Guard Operator's licenses and federally navigable waters can be obtained from the U.S. Coast Guard Office in Seattle at (206) 217-6115 or Portland at (503) 240-9346.

--- --- ---

You can learn more at:
http://www.salmonuniversity.com/edpr_how_to_start_charter.html
The Salmon University

I am not sure this was a sting but an opportunity. A friend who was down there had a good analogy...like fishing at Woodstock...(those of you too young to know what Woodstock was look it up).....and H2o it's allright if you don't remember....

The fishery in August on the Columbia below the Astoria bridge brings out thousands of boats so what better place to enforce the laws. What better place to enforce safety as well since so many drown there.

I'm all for free enterprise CFM and less frivolous regulation but on this issue I land squarely in favor of regulation for the safety of the clients. I think you may be right that the Charterboat Association (Mark Cedargreen) had something to do with influencing enforcement but they have lots of influence on lots of issues concerning WDFW seasons and rules because they are active in the process. They were active in getting Umatilla open for halibut this year and the 7 day a week season in the ocean. This is not undo influence just organized influence. You, too, can influence these policies but it won't happen here.

Grandpa

Don't get me wrong about the "safety" issue! I just think the "money" thing that a guide has to pay for a "dead obsolete charter license" is a monopoly and a joke. All guides should go through the same safety training and hold the same licenses as each other. It's more of a "turf war" than anything else, and it needs to be fixed!

Cowlitzfisherman

Well, at least watching the customers get interviewed, the guide get cuffed, and the boats seized provided us with some good entertainment at the Chinook Marina last Tuesday. We were back early with our fish....
:p

There were also a ton of sport citations issued and a sport boat seized that had mass fish hidden under the floor.

I'm really surprised at the responses to this thread, particularly by the fact that no one seems to notice the obvious - B10 is so loaded up with guide boats that private fishermen can hardly find room to launch their boat or fish. Maybe I'm being selfish, but I happen to like the fact that saltwater at least is one place where I can be somewhat assured of having a patch of water to fish in. All the blatant disregarding of the charter law by guide boats going on down there was leaving very few patches to fish in this last week. Personally, I'd rather see limited entry for all guides, not just charters - I happen to think that there are too many guide boats on all our waters. And I think that guide licensing requirements should include boating safety and first aid training, regular drug testing, and other types of requirements similar to those of chauffers and commercial drivers. And anyone with a criminal record and especially any fish and wildlife violations on their record should be excluded from consideration forever. Apologies in advance to those who will flame me for proposing more layers of bureaucracy, and especially to all the guides who obviously should oppose my views for economic reasons, but as I said earlier, maybe I am being selfish in my view that our sportfish should be for recreation and not for profit.

I beg your pardon but the thousands of boats fishing the Columbia River below the Astoria bridge are predominantly sports fishers in private boats. There are lots of guides and a few big charter boats but they are there providing a service too. Believe it or not there are tons of people including tourists who don't have a boat to fish out of and need a guide or a charter to enjoy fishing in our state. I have two boats and a canoe and yet I spend a bunch each year on guided fishing trips. Going with a competant guide can be a good way to learn a river and the techniques that work. As long as they are licensed and checked out to be safe I say more power to them. Unlicensed and unsafe and breaking the laws ??? You deserve what you get. Don't like the laws? Stop electing morons! Like the morons you vote in? Quit beaching.

Whenever fish concentrate or "stack up" as in rivers and especially at the mouth of the Columbia or tributaries of the Columbia there will be tons of boats because that is where the best chance at catching a fish will be. duh?? Short seasons and quotas exascerbate this problem because everyone wants to get in on it before it is too late.

grandpa

Cowlitzfisherman

As someone who is looking for a charter license, I can honestly say... I am with CFM on this. It is all about the money- a monopoly if you will. "Good ol' Boy Networking."

True, I am looking at making a little cash, but enough to supplement my monthly retainer check.

Of the two opportunites I had, they have both wanted a ridiculous amount of money for the license (and that's without the boat!). I figured it out... I would have been in the red for years to come! This wasn't a fair market price in my book!

Isn't it called a "black" market?

Maybe all the enforcement will weed out the guides who really have no business being a guide. I've been fishing here all my life and can't count the number of guys who go out and fish a few year's and then think they can make ton's of money guiding. I wouldn't trust half of them with my money let alone my life. Some people were meant to be guides and some weren't. I have met both types and unfortunately I think the bad ones outnumber the good ones. It doesn't make any difference if you have a guide license or a charter license, you can still get yourself and other's killed. The problem is that a lot of the guides break the rules as much as a lot of regular fisherman. Look at Buoy 10 this year. I've ready about fish hidden under floors etc. It seems that eveyone wants enforcement until some people start getting seriously pinched and then everybody cries wolf. If you break the law and get caught then you have no one to blame but yourself.
Guides are a needed resource but they need to be better regulated to prevent all the abuse that takes place.