Why should WDFW have to have your Social Security number?

Why is it that we must now give WDFW our social security number when we purchase our fishing or hunting license? What was wrong with just using your driving license for your ID? I know that WDFW have caught a few dead beat dads who have skipped out of paying their child support, but why did our legislators authorize WDFW to get such personal information to hunt or fish?

With all the paranoia that was generated when I posted a web site that gave away who and how much state workers make, what safe guards has WDFW taken to assure us that "our" most secret numbers has been safe guarded? What stops a private business operator or their employee who is tied into the WDFW computer systems from pulling up a persons name and reviewing your personal information including... your SS#? Does anyone know if these license sales people computers only have the ability to upload and enter "impute" and not the ability to download this information?

Since these people are trained in the use of these state computers, and are not state employees, is your Social Security number and other personal important information really being safeguarded or protected?

I don't know the answers, so that is why I am asking you these questions!

The only reason that I could locate that justified WDFW getting our SS number comes under:
RCW 77.32.014
Licenses, tags, and stamps -- Revocation/privileges suspended for noncompliance with support order.
Licenses, tags, and stamps issued pursuant to this chapter shall be revoked and the privileges suspended for any period in which a person is certified by the department of social and health services or a court of competent jurisdiction as a person in noncompliance with a support order. Fish and wildlife officers and ex officio fish and wildlife officers shall enforce this section through checks of the department of licensing's computer data base. A listing on the department of licensing's data base that an individual's license is currently suspended pursuant to RCW 46.20.291(8) shall be prima facie evidence that the individual is in noncompliance with a support order. Presentation of a written release issued by the department of social and health services stating that the person is in compliance with an order shall serve as prima facie proof of compliance with a support order

Wouldn't our fish and games time, funding, manpower, and resources be much better spent going after poachers and enforcing fish and game laws instead trying to catch deadbeats guys who can't get along with there x's?


And yes, this is related to fishing and the information that we must now give to purchase a new fishing license!

Does any one know any of the answers?

Cowlitzfisherman

Maybe they can use your SS# to find your real identity >? And then about 50 of them could come to your house and beat the crap outta ya.

Now be nice there grandpa!

Remember, it was "you" that noticed that I was carrying that big banana in my pocket! It will take more then 50 of them to take me down

I don't know about the security aspects of the system, but using a driver license number would work for many but not all people. Young people that need catch records and those that need a fishing license at age 15 may not have a driver license. There are also those that just don't drive and don't have a license. In some states your driver license number is the same as your SS #.
I think one reason they chose the SS# is that you must now have SS# for all your kids to file your income tax so it is a unique number that most people already have.

no reply

jeez, the *****ing never stops around here does it??

Big deal if they're using your SSN. Been to college at all in the last decade and a half?? Thats your student ID number now. Ever been in the military? Thats been your number there for god knows how long.

I gave up on the whole SSN thing along time ago. It's a losing battle. The feds have already assigned us a personal ID and number. It's your SSN number.

Tell ya what, you wanna ***** about the need to give your SSN to get a fishing license, why don't you leave it off your IRS tax forms next year. That numbers not for tax purposes. Let me know how it works out for you.

Personally I love that I'm in the system under one number. I remember the days all to well of walking up to some untrained clerk who didn't know how to fill out all the forms correctly. Now I walk up, give them my number and tell them what I want and walk off.

Hey there's a great idea! The driver's license for universal ID!! Heck in California a whole bunch of illegal aliens can get driver's licenses now. Use it to get a SS# and maybe even a passport. Geeez...next thing you know someone will get fake ID and fly some planes into some buildings.

Sinker, your SSN is NOT your ID at any public university (unsure of private) in this state anymore. The law was changed several years ago because of a case at CWU of a professor stealing his students identities and then buying credit cards with them. Over the last two years universities have gradually changed all ID numbers to a random number because it is illegal for universities to use your SSN as your ID number.

I'm against the WDFW using our SSN numbers. In most any other context (including school ID numbers before the law change) the giving of your SSN was completely voluntary. That's how it should be, catch dead beat dads some other way.

You know CWU..Now that you mention it my company (65,000 employees) just issued us a new ID which replaces SSN ID and the reason given was identity theft problems.

Personally I like the fingerprint scan that my bank has available. I haven't used it yet but that may be a better ID verification in the future or retina scans even better. Tht is if you want your identity secure and your privacy protected.

ALL PLEASE NOTE: THIS POST REPRESENTS RAMON VB'S PERSONAL OPINION; HE IS NOT POSTING IN ANY OFFICIAL WASHINGTON TROUT CAPACITY.

Well, I guess I can actually see everyone's point. I would imagine WDFW wants your SS# for the same reason everyone else generally does: convenience. Everyone has one, and they all have the same number of digits. You can't say that for the myriad other numbers we're all assigned.

That said, I do think CFM has some legitimate concerns (which maybe proves the old saw about lefties and righties being paranoid about the same things). The question isn't so much why they want it as what they might decide to do with it and whether it's a good idea to give it to them. Especially in this high-tech age.

THAT said, I also have to agree that boat has pretty much already sailed. I've lost track of who all has my SS#, DL#, sundry CC#'s, and other info they could use to find me and/or screw me, including the hospital, the last college I attended, everywhere I've worked or even just applied for a job, and the guy who sold me my car, if I remember correctly (to be perfectly frank, he seemed even shiftier than Jeff Koenings). If I didn't give my SS# to WDFW and they really wanted it, couldn't they just call their pals at the Dept of Licensing and get it? And doesn't that go for just about anybody else?

Now that all's not to say it doesn't make me uneasy, but it's been going on like this for some time now, and the jack-booted thugs haven't broken down my door yet.

(Again, please note advisory at top.)

just to clarify ..I give my SSN all the time and am not paranoid about giving to anyone for a legitimate reason. I do think a more secure ID system may be in our future...one that can't be stolen so easily and used against us. As far as the government spying on me goes..well I bet I have a file already and have no real secrets except some fishing related ones....and my bachelor party pictures.

Well I can't resist the opportunity to say this (who knows if I'll ever get the chance again):

Amen, grandpa!

Mandated by Federal Law, all licenses must contain your SS# inorder to track and catch dead-beat dads not paying child support.

"Thanks President Clinton"

Cigar

Thanks Ramon....I think we're making some progress towards detante

gotta keep things equal nowadays deadbeat dads isn't politically correct its deadbeat parents

good point, I heard on the radio the other day that over 80% of all mothers that are supposed to be paying child support aren't paying anything.

#1 If you don't like it bug your congessman.

#2 If you don't like it bug your legislator.

#3 Other than that your beaten a dead horse.....have fun beaten it.

#4 Try fishen without a license....your local county will appreciate your donation to their budget.

#5 This is a gumms and jowl flapping thread ....anyone have somethin really important to discuss?

Bad hair day gooose?

You're beginning to sound like a gander. :p

I am all for tracking down dead beat dads and moms.. if they can afford a license they can sure as hell afford to pay to raise their kid.. for thoes of us who that doesn't describe it's a very MINOR inconvenience.. if anyone wants your SSN they are going to get it easily enough without going through WDFW..

What's your problem gooose? Last time you were into name calling, now your saying; "… This is a gumms and jowl flapping thread....anyone have somethin really important to discuss?"

Is it the fact that you have no power on this board to control what others may say, think or write? Or is it the "lack of power" to edit or remove whatever you personally don't like as you so often tend to do as a moderator of another fishing board? One would think that a "moderator" would have a little more class then the average poster, and learn to control his own emotions and stop making personal attacks against other board members!

Even though Jerry has rightfully disagreed with my opinion on several threads, he has always had the class to do it a "professional way" (something you need to learn how to do). He's never had to resort to came calling or trying to lower the demeanor of another person just because he may personally disagree with their opinion. Why is it that you feel so compelled to come over to Bob's Board to make your personal attacks?

Personally, I would hope that persons who are "moderators" would set higher standards and examples for others to follow, but then again maybe that's just one of the reasons why you are not a moderator on Bob's board. So why not save your anger until I make a post on your site, where you are the moderator, and you can play god as usual?


Cowlitzfisherman

Cigar is more or less correct. You SSN is cross-referenced within a computer but your license will never contain that information.

Every state I have bought a license in as of late has asked for my SSN.

cfm
You need some prozac.
Why are you so angry?
Your original post (while paranoid) had a point, but why flame Goose?
Go fish it will help.
ps loved grampas first reply.

You guys are two of a kind! Pretty soon you will even have a deck of cards with your pictures on them.

You got the gonads to tell me that I am paranoid and angry by saying;
Remember what they say about people who live in little glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones at someone else's house?

Was it not "you" that just posted this about me?

Flaming is a two way street, so maybe you ought to look a little deeper and closer into your own self seastrike!

Say what you may about me, but at least I am not a hypocrite! If that shoe fits you, maybe to ought to consider buying a dozen pair or so.

Cowlitzfisherman

I am going to agree with you Cowlitz.

Goose, if this is gumms and jowl why even post about it.

It seems to me (my opinion right or wrong) your still holding a grudge towards Cowlitz for the "What State employees make" thread.

Agree to disagree and stop bring that crap from the other site.

Well CFM, it's open season on you. Looks like the moderators are only sick of dealing with the heat you make for them, not the crap that's been tossed your way.

This SS# crap would NEVER have been allowed in previous generations. NO WAY!!

If you buy the line "Giving up your privacy to make government more efficient", YOU WORK FOR THE GOVERNMENT!! Just like the whiners who oppose this post.

Personally, I cant wait till election time. While i'll fight for your right to say what you want, remember, there's a cost for doing so. You are accountable for your words, so choose them carefully.

Hairlip.

Divers why would I hold a grudge? I don't and never did. Think about it for a bit.

As to my post...would anyone care to tackle any of my points made other than the "gumms and jowls" one? Oh and my apologies Plunker as I forgot you might read that post. :p

Besides the personal attacks against me, does any one actually know if any WDFW employee who has access to a state controlled computer (i.e. any WDFW staff person) have access from their own computer data systems and bases to review whatever information they may choose to about any person who has ever purchased a new fishing or hunting license?

You work there gooose, so tell us what you know or don't know!

Cowlitzfisherman

I certainly don't have access. Head scratcher for me CFM.

gooose is right about one thing for sure. It is a dead horse.
It might be a crummy law but it isn't going to change anytime soon.
The state assures us thhat these files are strongly protected.

Unless the state requires a ssn to apply for a license it is subject to losing all federal money given as grants for aid and services to needy families with children and for child welfare services.

Simply said - No ssn's collected... No money for welfare.

Here is the appropriately named law: US Code; Title 42; Section 666

United States Code

TITLE 42 - The Public Health and Welfare

Section 666. - Requirement of statutorily prescribed procedures to improve effectiveness of child support enforcement.

...(a) Types of procedures required - In order to satisfy section 654(20)(A) of this title, each State must have in effect laws requiring the use of the following procedures, consistent with this section and with regulations of the Secretary, to increase the effectiveness of the program which the State administers under this part:

...(13) Recording of social security numbers in certain family matters. - Procedures requiring that the social security number of -
(A) any applicant for a professional license, driver's license, occupational license, recreational license, or marriage license be recorded on the application.


My Note: On the bottom of every Social Security Card it says...
FOR SOCIAL SECURITY AND TAX PURPOSES - - NOT FOR IDENTIFICATION

Plunker

We think alike on many legal issues, but here's one that you will need to do your homework on! According to what you have just posted, "driver's licenses" fall under this rule! If my memory serves me right, I recall that California just passed a state law that allowed "illegal aliens" to be able to procure a state drivers license. How can that be possible, if they are illegal and do not have any social security number?

You can bet your last dollar that they will not let go of any federal funding!

What am I missing?

"Section 666" where have I seen those 3 numbers before???????????

Cowlitzfisherman

illegals don't seem to have much trouble getting SSNs either.....free community college tuition...hospitalization...on and on...

Cowlitzfisherman - I'm just too lazy to try to research just how illegal aliens manage to get drivers licenses without ssn's but will venture that some obscure exemption from section 666 allows the use of an "alien tax ID #" or some such thing.

For any conspiracy buffs out there, a search engine result for "title 42" and "section 666" located the following page: MARK OF THE BEAST -- 42 USC Sec. 666

Reccommended Reading - despite the wacky name.

The "roll-overs" always make me cringe......

Funny thing is, 99.9% of people do not realize that there is a Federal law that states it is illegal for ANYONE to require disclosure of SSN.... Banks, employers, Gov't, lenders, etc...... And said law allows for lawsuits if any of the aforementioned force a person to disclose it. They only folks excluded from this law is non-citizens, i.e., people immigrated from other countries that obtain SSN's...
I always ask myself, since they do not play by the rule, why do they not get rid of that rule??? Makes me think that it is a constitutional rule or something and they cant....

Just check into it if you do not believe me.....


MC

Read my other post about this...... How can he mandate a law that blatantly goes against another federal (and much older) law?????

Anyone really interested in the law, I can dig it up again...... IT IS ILLEGAL FOR ANYTHING BUT VOLUNTARY DISCLOSURE OF SSN!!!!

Period.... Of course, try doing anything without disclosing it and see what happens...... You can sue though, but who has the money or the time? I say "Obey the frickin law you created or ammend/repeal it"..... Funny how the Gov't expects us to follow to the rule, but they do not have to!

MC

HA HA HA HA HA!!! And WHERE are the "equal treatment of women" crowd on this one??? Hell, I know 2 buddies of mine that haven't gotten a penny in years and the judge will do NOTHING to them..... Good thing they are not men or they would have to hide or suffer.....

MC

Well, before you continue castigating folks on this board for DISCUSSING an important issue, remember one thing. With discussion comes agreement, coordination, action..... And one or two writing will get nothing but a "I am there for you" form letter...... A letter signed by a large GROUP of people will get there attention..... Again with the "Roll-over" crowd. In-action and compliance get NOTHING done in todays world..... Mass voters squeeling can do wonders....

MC

And this "State" law is in clear violation of a federal law..... You cannot be FORCED to divuldge your SSN to ANYONE!! That is the law. Now, is it going to stop? No.... Because there are too many out there that do not care. I guarantee you, 200 people get their heads together and start one of these class-action suits for being "forced" to disclose it, and I guarantee 2 things.... A HEFTY settlement, and then a change in the federal law..... IF THEY DO NOT FOLLOW THEIR OWN RULE, THE BAS_TARDS NEED TO CHANGE IT!!!!!



MC

MC

Count me in.

Thats the bottom line.....

WW

Not to get sidetracked from the original post, but now another question comes to mind. This is not intended to bash the tribes, so please do not get started on that line of thinking! With that being said, as far as I know, don't native Indians still have to have a state driver's license to drive off reservation lands?

If so, are they also "required" by Clinton's law to also give the state a "social security number before they can get their drivers licenses? Or do special groups or races have special exemptions to this law? So what do the Canadians do if they come over to Washington and buy a non resident fishing license? What social security number are they going to use?

What happens when if you're still just a kid (15-18 years old) and you have never worked for wages yet and you have not applied for, nor received a "social security number"? Does the "state" have the legal right to "force" a person under 18 to secure a social security number just in order to go fishing or hunting?

Where is the ACLU or other civil rights groups when we really need them?


Cowlitzfisherman

CFM.............
Refer to my earlier threads..

My guess would be that they do disclose it, or they do not and because of the law forbidding the forcing of disclosure and the tribes ability and willingness to sue, they do not force them.

MC

Oh, and BTW, we are the wrong sex, color, and race for the ACLU to give $.02 about us.... (not including all board members in that, just many of us)

CF
You should go and actually talk to a dealer or a WDFW regional office. The SSN is only required for your first initial purchace. The data you give them is then saved into a data base. You never have to give them your number again. Yuo are issued a wild ID number and you can use your drivers lisence #. Many dealers are lazey and ask for your ssn but you can tell them no and use one of your other choices. As for your paranoia about the "non state workers" Once you have given your number it is blacked out for any other further access. No one can see it. You might want to try an aluminum foil hat, I hear it might block big brother from reading your thoughts. The truth is out there Scully.

w. coyote

Since you're into the business of dealing with "sporting good sales", obviously you are either working with these state computers or your working with the folks who are using them.

Without trying to add to your little cutting "paranoid" remarks, if you reread what I had originally asked for in this thread, maybe you would not have needed to frame your last part of your answer in the fashion that you did. Do you always have such a big problem separating someone's legit questions from the meaning of the word "paranoid" ?

What I said was;

How in the devil can you get "I don't know the answers, so that is why I am asking you these questions!" mixed up with being paranoid?

Your first part of your rely was very informative, but why did you feel so compelled to add your last little nip when you said;

Your logic kind of reminds me of a time when millions of people were told that they were going to get to take a hot shower, and they believed what they were told; until the doors were locked and something else besides water filled the rooms.

Never again should people be afraid to ask why, or to question!

CFM, not trying to cause any problems here. As part of my job I am the assistant Network administrator at my company. And my wife builds data bases for a living. Both of us have degrees in computers and computer networking. It is easy to ensure that people even those that work for the state cannot get to certain information. every person and computer on a network are assigned certain rights. And only the network admin can asign or change them.

If the admin dosen't want you to see something you can't. It is also possible to be able to see something but not change it known as "read only".

There are a number of different rights and combinations, but I am not going to try and go through them here. But this is the point, if it was to happen the person you should question would be the network admin. It is thier job to protect the data on the job sites network.

Hope this helps.

Thank you BW!

That's all I was looking and asking for, and I appreciate your reply without making any side nipping remarks.

Cowlitzfisherman

I was never told I had a choice. In fact, GI Joes told me I could not get a license without all of the information. So I would have to sue them to get licensed without giving up my SSN#. That's the way it is in my world. If in your world there is no big brother, good for you. But I like to keep my foot on his neck. If I dont, he has and will again "STEP ON MINE". I guess if you have something to lose (like a govt. job), all this "paranoid" talk is personally threatning. I dont, and it's not!

No one forces you to give out your SS#. You have the choice of not buying a fishing liscence. Fishing is a privilage not a right. As is your drivers liscence. Remember felons do not have the right to vote, hunt, fish, or carry guns. So if you don't want to give out your SS# don't, but don't cry about not fishing. I personally think trying to nab dead beat fathers is a good thing for the state to try to do. How can anyone disagree with that.

Good attitude weedwacker.

Hey!
If they don't pay then throw them in prison.
If they still don't pay then hang them.
Problem solved. Real DEAD-beats don't go fishing.

The last time I tryed any side nipping my wife beat the crap out of me.

For all you guys that just can't stand not to whack away at me

Move and click mouse-----then swat with the mouse and see what happens. Keep watching.

This will keep you busy on those days when you are really mad at me and have nothing better to do.

http://www.shockhaber.com/zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.htm

Oh how right you are.... But coercion is wrong, and ILLEGAL! That is the problem. It becomes coercion when you cannot open a bank account, take out a loan, or work simply because you refuse to disclose your SSN. Sad thing is that when you refuse to disclose it, you are only exercising your right as the law states..... Then you are "punished" by not being given the "priviledge" to work, fish, buy, etc..... That is wrong. If we do not follow the law, we pay the penalty. So, when states, employers, banks, etc. to not follow the law, why do they not get in trouble for it?
Most people could care less about disclosing their SSN... That is fine, but they SHOULD care that they are not required to disclose it and the law states they cannot be "forced, compelled, or coerced" into disclosing it.

MC