This is a copy of the email I just sent the WDFW. Check the numbers for yourself. I think it is time we stop letting the state screw one group or another. This is my first year Muzzleloading. The Game trails is online or at some stores and WDFW.

I have just read your Equal Opportunity for Achers, Muzzleloaders, and Modern Firearm Hunters in Washington Hunting News, Game Trails/Hunter News 2003. I have to strongly disagree with the "Equal Opportunity" part. I decided to see just how equal access is. Modern firearm hunters have 128 GMU's to hunt deer in during the early season. Archers have 125 GMU's. That is pretty even so far. Then comes the smallest group, Muzzleloaders, who have 62 GMU's, or about half the access. Now correct me if I am wrong but 62 and 125-128 are no where near equal. Late season is 68 for Modern, 71 for Archers, again pretty equal, then 24 for Muzzleloaders. Yet again no where near equal. This is just deer. Now I decided to check out Elk. Modern have 93 GMU's to hunt early season, with no late season. Archers have 91 early GMU's. Muzzleloaders have 48. Yet again about half the GMU's. Archers have 36 late season GMU's. Muzzleloaders have 20, slightly more then half. Using your own numbers there are only 4.5% of the deer hunters in the state who use a Muzzleloader. 12.7% use a bow, and 82.7% a modern firearm. Using your numbers from the 2002 Game Harvest report there were a total of 7667 Muzzleloader deer hunters with a success rate of 25.6%. Archers had 16380 with a success rate of 22.3%. Modern had 113874 with a success rate of 24.9%. This is the only close to "equal" I could find, success rates. When you put the smallest group in the fewest areas, it starts to look alot like, "you use that fountain over there and ride in the back of the bus too". Which really upsets me. There is no reason why Muzzleloaders cannot have the same number of areas to hunt like the rest of the hunters, especially since the harvest rates are so close to the same. You need to look into making access a true Equal Opportunity. I hope you will respond with a valid scientific reason for this drastic difference. That load of words in Game Trails is just a fancy way of saying he who shouts the loudest gets the most. I am also forwarding this to several Muzzleloader groups in an effort to help you in your future decision making.

They should have said proportional. It appears the policy is to allocate to the use groups as a percentage of users. If you look what the archery Elk hunters have given back in the past few years it m akes sense. There is movement to separate out modern vs trad for the ML and Archery to divide it up more.

Definately dominated by the MF guys.

Big Jim, the mzloaders are the smallest group with the highest success rate. Sounds about right to me.

**does best June Cleaver impression**

....Slabquest, where are you?...

H20-
Its been unfair like that for a long time. I hunted Muzzleloader for deer when I lived in the tricities. We had to drive over 100 miles just to have a place to hunt early season. I got one every year, and have had similar luck since moving to the OP with my bow. I know a place for the old Mzzleloader that is a slam dunk... you need a boat and have to be willing to take a road trip, but literally every trip ended in a big fat muley doe. Very few bucks, hundreds of does. send personal message if interested..

Elk-

Dude I haven't the foggiest idea about muzzafashizzledizzle...I was hoping the new mod Slabquest would bury this thread in "Hosed Muzzleloaders" section of the BB...which I believe is right by the 'Frog Leg Recipes' forum and just under the"Secret Mushroom Spot" forum.

Here's my outlook on it, not that anyone cares.

I have been dealing with this for many years and have just accepted it and I have no issue scoring deer, 14 for 14 years, and 5 elk in 8 years.

I learn the areas that are open, and historically they remain the same. Sure, I'd like to hunt some areas in the early season, but know they will be open in the late season.

I had a chance to ride along with a State biologist in March when I participated in an elk dart and collar project. I asked that very question, "Why so stingy on the ML hunts?"

Max answered that there are a number of factors.

1. The rifle hunters deserve a shot at some areas where the deer have had a break between methods. Some area get hunted by bow, then a break during ML, then open for modern.

2. Hunting with a bow in an area with high pressure is VERY difficult. They spread the users over a wider area to reduce the pressure, increasing the harvest opportunity.

3. Many areas open in the late season for bowhunters are also open to ML hunters. To give the bow hunters areas with reduced pressure (no ML hunters) they create "bow only" units.

4. One concession to ML hunters that has been made in a number of units is that very good units with high concentrations of deer are either sex. Lincoln and Deschutes are two that come to mind.

The only time I have ever felt at a disadvantage with a ML has been on a running deer, (I have dropped at least 3 deer running with a rifle, knowing I have an opportunity for a quick follow-up shot), and animals farther away than 75 yards (my personal limit I set for my ML). Then again, only 3 deer I have taken have been further away than 100 yards, and all elk were within 40 yards or less.

I hunt for meat, not necessariily horns. They are nice to have, but are pretty tough on the teeth.

A few reasons why you see a high success rate for ML hunters are that they tend to have hunted for a number of years prior to switching over to a more challenging method. The seasons are over a month long during the best weather for deer hunting (no leaves obscurring views in the woods, and the forest is wet and quiet). Any deer or elk with 50 yards is in serious danger, as opposed to 25 yards for a bow.

Sorry to read your dissapointment with the seasons, but you know what they are before you choose your method, so you really have nobody to blame but yourself. If you need help on some areas to hunt, send me a PM and I can direct you to a few spots.

This week I have hunted every night after and have seen 5,7,2,10, and 9 deer each evening. All does and fawns. Tonight I also saw a bear for about 1 second before he dove into the brush. No shortage of animals in the area I was hunting, and I only saw 1 other deer hunter all week. There was a serious shortage of hunters.

Good luck on your hunts!

Andy

I can't figure out why anybody (muzzle loader, bow, hatchet, club) should have any special seasons!

Break the seasons into 3 periods for all hunters at the same time, and let us draw for the period we want to hunt.

If I want to hunt with Muzzle loader or a hatchet why should I get a special season?

Why should a bow hunter get to shoot either sex? They make the decision to hunt with a bow.




herm

Sorry H20, I meant to offer it to the person who opened the thread (big jim??), but I must have saw your name last, so thats the one I wrote. We have a mushroom thread??? I gotta go visit that one! For chantrelles of course....

Well Big Jim… I like the fact that you are sending letters to the Game Department, they always need to here from us the hunters of Washington. We need as many hunters as possible to get involved with the process of season setting and feedback to the state, otherwise we ALL will get less and less.

From the meetings that I have attended with WDFW when they reference “Equal Opportunity” they are referencing “Hunter Success Rate”.

So, even though one user group may have less day’s afield or less GMU’s it ALL is based upon the “Success Rate”. If let’s say that some how one user group had a big jump in success rate the state would have to change something, i.e. weapon limitation, GMU reduction, number of days afield, to counter balance the increase in success so that ALL user groups have a balance success rate.

Also, we the less populated user groups have made the decision to hunt with a primitive or more difficult method. It was and is our choice. Otherwise we could be out in the woods this weekend with the 140,000 estimated (by the state) modern firearms hunters.

I used to rifle hunt my early life, then made the change about 12 years ago. That was a choice of hunting and lifestyle.

I personally like the fact that I have a harder hunt to be successful and still have just as much chance of not being successful at harvesting an animal.

I had a great talk with 2 new archery hunters several weeks ago at a campground. The thing that always stands out when I talk to new guys is, as quoted, “We thought it would be great to get more hunting days.” and then “Man it is a lot harder than we thought it was going to be.” and “If we would have been hunting with our rifles we could have shot a lot of elk or deer by now, we just couldn’t get to within 30 yards.”

Good luck hunting and with the game department. Keep us posted with there reply.

Shoot Straight

My choice to hunt ML this year had nothing to do with number of areas. I wanted fewer people and longer time in the woods, which is exactly what I got. I saw 3 deer opening day, 0 for the next three days, 5 on the 5th day, 16 the 6th day. I rested the 7th day for modern opening hunts with family. Not one elk. I hunted many local areas with limited access and walked and rode my bike. Except Ft. Lewis, where I walked and road hunted. What makes me mad is the state acting like they are doing us a favor by having fewer areas, when they are not. What needs to happen is the seasons need to open at different times. Our hunting license is from April to March each year. Why not open Archery and ML as normal each Sept and Oct in all the areas. Then break for two weeks. Open modern for normal lenght. Break for a week or two and finish Archery and Ml into the first couple weeks of Jan. I have hunted modern for 11 years in this state. The past five years have been too crowded. Between the increase in hunters and the private timbers shutting down access, it will only get worse. Look at it this way. You stick 2600 hunters in a 618 square mile area. How likely is it that someone may get injured because some moron shoots at a noise? Remeber even a .22 goes for 1.5 miles. That is what you have if you hunt the Vail Tree farm during Modern season. That is why I changed methods. What happens when you start sticking 150 camo clad ML hunters in an area that is 300 square miles? I took my girlfriend and her 14 year old daughter out this year modern season. We saw tons of animals, 31 deer over two days and tons of hunters close to 500. The daughter even took her first deer ever, a spike. This does not mean I will go back to modern yet, even though the area we hunted was closed to ML. All I want is equal access to equal areas. The archers got it when they raised their voices, we ML should too.

Big Jim, if they made the seasons as you suggest, the muzzleloaders would take so many animals the seasons would end up being shortened for all. The best measure of equality is the success rate, which would increase exponentially for muzzleloaders if all areas were opened to them. I've taken deer with all three weapons types, and I don't favor one over the other. But remember, muzzleloaders are the smallest group, vastly outnumbered by mod firearms. They should get first crack at the critters? No way.

Hey, guys,

Give me some help on this one, as I don't know the regs for hunting, as turkey hunting is pretty much all the hunting I do anymore...

Muzzleloaders can still use their weapons during modern seasons, can't they? If they can't, then my next point doesn't matter.

If they can, however,...

This argument can go the same way as the "flyfishing only" argument should go. While some flyfishers argue that there aren't enough flyfishing only waters, and that they get less opportunity, they're obviously flat out wrong.

Not only do flyfishermen get a smattering of flyfishing only waters/seasons, they also are legal to fish in any opening, anywhere. Seems to me that they have more opportunity than gear fishers do (all open areas, plus fly only areas).

If muzzleloaders can use their guns during modern seasons, isn't it the same situation?

If they can't...um...nevermind!

Fish on...

Todd.

Todd, muzzleloaders can be used during modern firearm season only if the hunter bought a modern firearm tag.

Thanks, Cupo,

If that's the case, then it seems to me that for, what?, $22 or so?, that muzzleloaders have access to longer seasons and greater geographic areas to hunt than do the modern-only hunters.

As I stated above, I don't rifle hunt anymore, so it's no skin off my nose either way, but am I missing something here?

It looks to me that muzzleloaders might be looking for exclusive hunting opportunities, rather than more hunting opportunities, as the thread began focusing on?

Fish on...

Todd.

I think muzzleloaders get a fair shake. Especially when you consider the advances in muzzleloader technology that has, to some degree at least, diminished the need to have seperate modern and muzzleloader seasons.

IMO, of course.

One shot, limited range, open sights only, traditional style caps open to the weather, no jacketed bullets, etc. That is ML hunting in a nutshell.

The only real advantage that ML hunters get right now with the modern advances is improved design of in-line rifles (in-lines have been around for well over a century, just not widely used). Sure, I can consistently hit a 3 inch circle at 75 yards all day long (I mean 20 shots or more) with my in-line, but I can do the same with my sidelock.

In Washington we do not get to use 209 primers for ignition, no scopes, only lead bullets are allowed (no jackets or other metals allowed), and the sealed breach guns are not allowed (DISC and the new T/C type rifles). These are a number of advances applied to ML's, and I am perfectly happy hunting without them.

I am not looking for additional seasons, just keep it as is and I will be happy. One season I hunted for deer for 5 days and NEVER saw another hunter. It is common for me to see few or no other ML deer hunters on a daily basis. Please, continue to rifle hunt, or bow hunt. I like it fine, just the way it is.