was down on the cowlitz river, and saw guys useing 10 foot leaders. talked to one guy who called it flossing the fish,it sounded like snagging to me. it may not be illegal but is it ethical?? i am undecided...

Oh crap. now you just had to go and post that didnt you. Here we go again.


I dont want to right an essay but on the question of whether or not its ethical that just depends on if your a purist or not. To some people your a scum sucking slime ball if you floss fish, to some people your only your a scum sucking slime ball on the internet but what they do and what they say are two different things. To some people its ok to floss surplus hatchery fish but your still a scum sucking slime ball if you floss native fish.

So is it ethical? That depends on whether you are a person that knows how to catch fish or a person that doesnt know how to catch fish? Most people that know how to fish will tell you it is unethical.

People also disagree on the legality of flossing. I personally believe its legal seems how for instance a gamie on a zipper was explaining to people how to floss silvers in a small river when I asked him if he wanted to come up to a hole of mine and watch me snag some fish. He of course hopped in his truck and followed me up to my spot where I proceeded to catch fish (not snag) using a jig. He looked at me surprised and told me he did not know these fish actually bit. Imagine that!

By the way he had polarized sunglasses on and I showed him the fish before I caught them. He watched the fish come up and nail it!

bustin,

Just a thought to help you make your decision. The guys you saw "flossing" don't have any ethics. If they did or they ever stopped long enough to ask the same question you posed, they might have to admit they are wrong and be ashamed of their unsportsmanlike behavior. They are misguided and confuse meat fishing with sports fishing. The difference between the two is there are rules in sport. Yet they call themselves sportsmen even if they fish by the letter but not by the intent or spirit of the rules. Consequently they bring their shame down on all the rest who love the sport. If you want to call yourself a true sportsman don't believe the lie and do what you know is right. If you only care about the meat then do what you will but do the rest a favor and don't pawn yourself off as a sportsman as these guys are doing. And if you're ever unsure, check the regs and/or a true sportsman you can respect and want to be more like. If you honestly admire these guys then I suggest you find some new friends. A true friend and mentor wants the best for you and won't drag you down, steer you wrong or sell you out to justify his own unethical behavior. Make your choice, live by it and help others to do the same.

Just say no to flossing!

The regs clearly state that it is unlawful to fish in a manner in which the fish does not willfully take the bait or lure into it's mouth.

Therefore a 27 foot leader with a black corkie and a hook above the corkie (that's the "Toutle Local" rig) is probably an attempt to catch fish in a manner which the fish does not take the bait willfully into it's mouth.

But ask any gamie.....it's awful hard to prove what the fish was thinking.

My thought is that if you're a local who's fishing for meat and you have to attempt to floss fish....well, you're probably so desperate as to make it okay in your conscience...for the rest of us, stick to real fishing, sport fishing, and leave the meat baggers at hoodsport :p

What ever it takes to hook them in the mouth is my philosophy.
The MAJORITY of salmon and steelhead don't bite. I have reached a point where I now question the usage of eggs due to one simple yet logical question.
Do migrant fish really bite on bait?
If so, how come you don't find any scraps in their guts.
For me, flossing is an art; where as snagging is an illegal and a crude method which any fool can do.

Just go by the rule and you'll be OK.

No, fishing is an art.

Flossing is snagging....you just do it in the mouth.

I have seen visible coho, king, steelhead and chum all come up and take a jig out from under a bobber into their mouth ON PURPOSE.

Maybe they were just mad at it, but SKILLED angler should be able to LURE the fish into biting his/her bait ON PURPOSE.

Intentional Flossing = Snagging

Ironhead they bite out of aggression, not out of hunger.

If the fish does not WILLINGLY!!!! take the hook(s) into it's mouth it is illegal and unethical and unsportsman like and only scumbags do it.. I am not calling anyone who does it a scumbag. I am saying that the action of "flossing" makes you one. If you want to not be a scumbag then quit being a snagger.

Bustinbig,

It depends on YOUR ethics. You can choose your own; you don't have to accept mine.

I think the more relevant issue is legality. Under the rules of fair chase (that's what's considered sportsmanlike conduct), and the opposite of the definition of snagging, the fish is supposed to willingly take the bait or lure in its mouth. Flossing is snagging, but because the fish ends up being hooked in or near the mouth, wildlife agents are less likely to cite because of the greater difficulty of prosecution.

To floss or not to floss? Flossing is equivalent to shooting sitting ducks or using aircraft to hunt big game. They violate the concept of fair chase. Even if it's legal, I'm partial to fair chase; it helps define me as a civilized person, and the end does not justify the means.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

If you are worried about flossing a fish then you can make your own choice to NOT to use a hook corkey hook set up. Now don't get me wrong I am not stating that just because you are using that set up you are flossing or snagging.
I have caught lots of fish with both the one hook set up and the two hook set up, 98% of time the hooks are (in the mouth) with both. Also there is a strike or bite when the hook up occurred.
Just yesterday I was fishing the Lewis river across from the hatchery and I was one of the few people that had bait on their hook.... a lot of people had over size hooks with 3 to 4 large corkies and a sinker that gave them a slow drift. One guy had at least 20 fish on in a 2 hr time period, only one of the fish was landed.


Fishalot

This is one area that I do not believe is black-and-white except in peoples minds. I am sure a percentage of fish actually do strike the corky, just as they do if the leader is 3 feet long........ I chock it up there with BuzzBombs. Some people use them to catch fish, others use them to snag.... Does that mean that BB'ing is an unethical way to fish? Many think so. I do not floss, but I can remember MANY days on the E. Fork Lewis when the water was low and clear and I would use a half a Jensen Egg and a #6 hook and a leader from 6-10ft long........ Caught all the fish in the mouth but did they take it or did I floss them?? I guess if you feel the fish dragging your line for several seconds and then hook them they were flossed, and if you get a bump and set the hook to have a fish on (without pulling for 6 feet before hooking them) then they bit it?

Like I said, I believe it is a real grey area dictated by common sense only......

MC

My thought on the deal is learn to fish in water that is all to your own, and learn to read water.
Fishing in combat zones like some of the "socalled" experts do and getting fish is not really escalating your expertise, other than learning how to play a fish.
Hatchery or not, the ethical old school way where you find the fish is the road to success.
Flossing is a very broad spectrum.
I call it "sight fishing" ,
That ain't no fun to me, but then again I don't fish the "ditch" "reiter" "blue creek" etc.
Learn to fish many different methods, and learn many rivers.
I have never used a 10ft leader for anything.
Other than under a float, with a jig.

I just try and learn new ways to find fish, and be in solitude and enjoy the nature being outside part of the deal....but thats just me....
If you use a 10ft leader, more power to ya!
You will never see me doing it though.

Maybe I don't get the flossing thing, I don't need too
WW

I don't floss. I don't have to.

4 outa 5 dentist surveyed said.... Oh yes you doooo! :p

I'm sad to admit that I have never flossed a fish with my full or even partial knowledge of committing such a dastardly and dire act even when fishing the Quilcene or the Cowlitz or for the record anyother body of water under the jurisdiction of Washimgton state......course if I was to go up to Alaska to hook sockeye in the mouth by such socalled evil methods.....nope it never happened. ....but it might :p . Sheesh anyone know where the dead horse pic is?

Not a good topic way to heated and way too beat to death..
Depends on what your fishing for socks (yes) any thing else pretty much (nope) Except if you can't catch them any way else..

You guys don't know jack. Making up more rules and regulations which aren't being called for.
I am so glad that some of you people are not involved with the decision making of our fishing regulations.
You wouldn't know flossing if I ran my leader b/w your legs and hook your jewels, head first.
If you are so much concerned with ethics, then just quite the fishing. Don't you know that these fish are in the river to spawn? Why are you harassing them during this critical stage of their lives? You say they bite out of aggression.
I say leave them alone. Let them do their own aggression among themselves as nature intended them to do. Stop stressing them out by tossing spoons, spinners, jigs, or whatever at them. Its just unethical and unnatural for us to interfere with their spawning process don't you think. There, take this ethic and stick it up your ethical reservior.

Shoot, I've seen guys flossing fish in 4ft of water using egg clusters. They don't know it, but I was on opposite side of them actually seeing the fish mouthed the leader first.

It all boils down to who is catching more fish doen't it.
A fisherman catching more fish than you, he is landing fish after fish in the mouth while you're trying your very best to read the water and attempting to harrass teh fish to be aggressive. This guy is not breaking any laws. Hell, he releases all of his catch. You are doing everything RIGHT, loosing gear every cast, switching lure every 5 minutes, and can't get a head shake. What is this guy doing wrong? Now your true feelings come out, jealousy and all. Its got to be THE ETHICAL FISHERMAN CODE that he is breaking. He is breaking YOUR LAW, "HE IS CATCHING MORE FISH THAN YOU."
The gammies can't help you. If you had your way and no body is looking, you send this guy floating down river face down.

Do what you got to do, but please stop trying to protect me from myself. Sick and tired of the homo, liberal, do gooders pushing uncalled for ethics to the world.

DANG I COULDNT HAVE SAID IT BETTER MYSELF!

I have seen the looks of the jealous and frustrated liberal yuppie fishing fools, and your right on! It comes down to pure jealousy of a good old boy redneck hooking fish on his garage sale special eagle claw fishing rod compared to yuppie boy whos got the latest in fishing technology from baystreet outfitters and cant hook crap!

oh, oh there goes the neighborhood somebody told it how it is.