I guess WDFW has decided what to do about the protest at Pt Townsend:

Last areas of Sound, Strait will close to sport crabbing

OLYMPIA - The last areas of Puget Sound and the Strait of Juan de Fuca open to recreational crab fishing will close for the season at 4 p.m. Dec. 14, the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW) announced today.

I bet you will see the Tribes out crabbing though.... Wanna bet??

MC

Our efforts to boost sports crabbing will have effects for the 2004 season. And yes the tribes will be crabbing and fishing and killing deer and elk and harvesting geoduck, seals and birds and spending alot of the profits on booze.

Wow, the bigotry is running rampant I see. Do some of us like to fume about others just to pass the time or is there any thought that goes behind this stuff?

Tribes have there harvestable amount, the State has theirs. When the Tribes take their share they shut down and the State keeps fishing its share. Conversely, when the State takes its share they shut down and the Tribes keep fishing their share.

What is so hard to understand about this concept??? The Tribes don't necessarliy fish when we do and we don't necessarily fish when they do. Its the "CO" in co-management.

If our crab quota is up, then we go home. If the Tribes still have some left then they keep fishing... HELLO?

pacificnw.....nothing to do with racism. The tribes abuse their rights and if you don't think so you have alot of reading to do.

I do not begrudge you your opinion. But, I respectfully disagree. The Tribes, and the people fishing under tribal regulations, are doing no more or no less "abusing" of their rights than the State of Washington, and the people fishing under state regulations, is doing.

I've been in this business a long time and there is no one entity or government or co-manager that is more "correct," or more "holier" than another.

pacifican,

We are not blind as everymone may want us to be.

We know what the hell goes on, we have eyes and we use them.

Im sory but you may be the one who is blind or who only sees what he wants.

Well, I don't get paid to be blind and I work hard at what I do. There are relatively few people who are "in the business" of fish and shellfish resource management in this region... those that I think can make the claim that they "know what goes on."

Again, and with respect, we all have opinions but some are more informed than others.

Once John Q gets pissed, what's he going to do? Do you think the sport fisher is going to elect the states next Governor? If not what is John going to do? Are not the commissioners appointed for a number of years?

Lets see, we have how many sport fishers in our state….and we have how many "people" who do not buy licensees or fish in our state

Well I guess I just answered my own question

Way to get fired up AuntyM....pretty interesting dialogue so far. What I want to know for the resident "expert" on this thread is whether the WDFW can shut down the indians if there is a conservation reason to do so. If wild steelhead retention is made unlawful could WDFW stop the indians from retaining wild steelhead?

i think i mentioned once that maybe a intiative by the people is in order to elect those in the wdfw for there selected spots..that will put people (hopefully) that dont want to jus make people happy, but will honestly bring about some good for the resources, unlike koening, what the hell does he do to deserve that spot when there are many who are better at seeing that wild steelhead need to be released, i do not understand the logic of one who is on the board, who has that view..

No, WDFW cannot "shut the indians down." WDFW does not regulate indian fishing. Tribes regulate indian fishing. You folks that have been around so long should know this by now. If there is a conservation reason to close fishing then ALL fishing is closed, including catch and release sport fishing. Simple as that.

Pacificnw ... call it bigotry if you like. It isn't even if it may sound like it. Frankly, I see that as a typical response anytime the tribal rights / actions are questioned.

On the coastal rivers, your line of reasoning is way out of line:

Never once since I've been fishng out this way (1987) has their been an increase in limit or season length for sporties in season.

Never once have I seen the tribal harvest cut off in season because they were taking too many more than sportfisherman.

It is a regular occurance on our streams for netting days to be carried over to the future because of "unfishable conditions". Does that mean that if we're sharing in the same manner that I can keep four brats next time I go fishing after the rivers were blown for a day??

At least twice, tribal members continued to net even though the entire sport fishery was closed due to emergency order. Examples: the fall netting two years ago on the Quillyute system and back in 97 or so when the Hohs contniued to net the wild run of steelhead after the river was closed to all sports fishing.

Sorry, not buying into the PC thinking ...

WOW, so leaving nets full of fish to rot is ok on the Nootsack??, saw it many times, also saw many fish rotting in truck beds on the Duwamish, what happens???Nothing,

If a sportsman was cought doing anything remotely close he would be hung by his nut$ and be in the paper, lose his rights, pay many dollars and possibly have his stuff confiscated,

I am open minded but you are posting on the wrong board if you looking for anyone to agree with you, way to much bad water has gone by and way to much documantation has been shown to the authoritys with nothing being done, to clean up the Tribal bad guys.

thanks for adding some insight into this Bob...

pacificnw sounds like a tribal member to me.

This notion that the tribes are not touchable by WDFW is not so. We as a state are being way too PC and suffering immensely for it. Things have gone way overboard in favor of the tribes.

I think one way to stop this is for the state of Washington to legalize gambling and bring in Las Vegas interests to compete directly with the tribes. Overwhelm the tribes with competition and shut down their monopoly of gambling. Stop giving the tribes any money from the federal treasury and put fences around their reservations with border crossings for them to go through from their sovereign nation into the USA. If they want their own nations so be it. If they want to assimilate into our society then they need to start acting like citizens and not a cocky group of outsiders dictating how our society functions to serve their interests. The tribes have not proven to be true comanagers of our fisheries but adversaries with a seat at the table taken by force.

I suspect the citizens of this country will wake up soon to the lopsided treaty situation and do something about it. Until then every sports fisherman should document the abuses every chance they get. Publish photos whenever possible. Show the proof and shut down people lilke pacificnw who are so far out of touch it is incredible.

BOB ..maybe you can repost the photos from last season.

BOB - First of all, let me say that I appreciate you making this board available for those of us that like to read-write about sport fishing. I find there is lots of useful information that I can use when I am out there on the streams or the saltchuck. It is also useful for those of us that can share our knowledge of how the fisheries operate.

Bigotry is not what I call it. The posts I refer to simply fit the definition. Its not my definition.

My reasoning is based on involvement in fisheries management on the coast and around the OP since 1976. So, it is not out of line, it is experience.

Whether the sport limits or seasons have stayed the same or not has little to do with the Tribal fisheries. The State manages its harvestable amount and the Tribes manage their harvestable amount. Some perform their duty well, others do not. This should be of no surprise.

Many fisheries are based on harvest rates and these are calculated from historical catch and effort models. If days not fished one week are moved to another then those days are representative of different catch and effort which are accounted for in the harvest model.

Again, Tribal fisheries are not "linked" to sport fisheries in the way you are inferring. Each is fishing on a separate portion of the harvestable amount.

No PC thinking, just the facts.

budnate - I share your concern for inadequate enforcement of the rules. All the Tribes I know of have wastage language in their laws and regualtions. It is similar to that in the WA state codes. If someone retains fish or shellfish during a fishery and does not care for the catch they are subject to fines... in both indain and non-indian fisheries. I think the enforcement problem is similar as well. Neither the State nor the Tribea have adequate funding and manpower for natural resource enforcement. I can think of many wastage problems in the sport fishery. This is not unique to the Tribes.

I am not looking for agreement, just offering another perspective. I don't pretend to know everything. But what I do know I wanted to share so that folks here could at least consider another viewpoint. I would even like to challenge the popular thinking here. But, if you would rather only listen to the oft-repeated view that someone has witnessed an indian fisherman doing something bad then all Tribes and all indian fishermen are bad, thats fine with me. Its a free country.

And, I could be posting on the wrong board. I am certainly not here to cause resentment. I can simply read what I want to read and keep that different perspective to myslef. Thats fine by me. But what kind of board would this be if everyone did that?

grandpa - Nope... not a tribal member nor am i even distantly related to a tribal member. Just another guy offering an informed view, like anyone else. You don't mind that do you?

The Tribes regulate tribal fisheries. The State regualted state fisheries. The two are not the same. What is so hard to understand?
Its not up to the state to be PC or not. This is federal law we are talking about, not State law.

I remember the disagreement on the Quillayute last year very well. Not totally familiar with the inside situation there. But as I recall, things were worked out eventually. More importantly, was the chinook escapement met? If I remeber correctly, it was.

Well, I hope that people are still allowed to voice their views and offer their perspectives on this board. I have enjoyed reading about the fishing experiences posted.

I agree that a different point of view is always welcome by me,

I also agree that there are slob sportsmen as well that do not take care of there game well, But generally they are not succseful in obtaing it by hook or ?? due to there lazy approach,

where as a just about anybody can set a net and gather most if not all of a of a run coming on by, so we have a ding dong that maybe cought one fish and did not take care of it, or we have 50 plus fish going to waste, this is my big problem with how things have been, I have seen pictures and heard of others but take it with a grain of salt, I can say that I have seen plenty of wasted fish in nets and truck beds and also boats with fish rotting in them as well, sad they take the effort to go through the motions and not finish the job, it would appear that it is a selfish act to take there share???????


Bud.

Pacificnw

I don't agree with a lot of members on a lot of different fishery issues. I find that lots of times I am ignorant about an issue, and find it most interesting to debate it until I feel that I have a better understanding or feeling of the issue. I guess it's because I just have a "need to know" why! We hear a lot of BS and very little facts! Good debates about these issues always separate the two

I may not agree with what other people may have to say some times, but without debating the merit of the subject, how can we ever learn the facts? I believe that a person should be allowed to debate his position or point of view until he becomes repetitious.

Even those I may not fully agree with you at some point, I do find that you are making people think (one of my favorite things to do ), and you at lease attempt to support your posts with facts, and not just emotions. I am also sure that we will have our differences on some issues (If you’re a biologist that's almost a given), but that will just make me learn more. I hope that others will treat you the same way, and let you share your opinions and knowledge with this board. New thoughts, new ideas, and new information is what makes this board so great. Lots of us have strong opinions that are almost formed in rock, so you can rest assured that you will have your hands full in trying to crack some of the rocks!

I for one, look foreword to hearing what you know, and have to say about our fisheries and its resources. There isn't a week that goes by where I haven't learned something new from this board. That's why new thoughts and information will always be appreciated by me, even those they may not be the same as my own.

Thanks for jumping into our fish pan!

PS; If you work for WDFW, please don't take my attacks on WDFW to personally! It's the "managers" that I have the biggest problems with …not the field people! I have a long history of disagreeing with how WDFW's has managed the Cowlitz River


Cowlitzfisherman

cowlitz - Thanks for your insight. I expect to agree with some and disagree with others, as you do. That's one of the features of your society that makes us so unique. But when some folks make statements that are so blantantly wrong I feel compelled to offer up another view. Yes, I am a biologist. I do not work for WDFW but did at one time.

Like all of us, I definitely want to see our natural resources managed in an appropriate way. But my views seem to diverge with others in that I would prefer the benefits of our harvestable fish and shellfish to be shared according to federal law. If that means putting the State and Tribal managers on the spot and keeping them there, so be it. I think managers need to be challenged too... if it is done in a well-thought-out and respectful manner. Off the soapbox now.

Since Bob said it so eloquently I will say I wish I had read this first before posting my thread.... I still feel that this throwing around of the "B" and "R" words has got to stop. It wont, because it has become such an effective tool at guilting people and shutting them up.
Heck, you know they beat old Michael J. up when he was arrested because of racial prejudice.......

Thanks for the cool-headed post Bob. That is why it's a good thing you are the moderator.

MC