Ok, here goes...

Can anyone give me a reasonable explanation, other than the couple I'll list after the question, why you should ever have to release a hatchery steelhead during any open steelhead fishery?

Reasons for...

1. They are there specifically for harvest. Last year's dismal hatchery winter run return on the coast proves that if people can't catch enough hatchery steelhead to fulfill their freezer filling needs, they will keep wild fish if legal to do so. While this is a slightly different issue, it still speaks to the point that there is no reason to release a hatchery fish (see caveats below). If someone catches and kills a hatchery fish in March, that reduces the chance that they will catch and kill a native.

2. An easy way to do wild steelhead a favor is to make sure that no hatchery steelhead ever spawn in the wild. Dead steelhead don't spawn.

Reasons against...

1. Like now on the PS streams...it actually may not be a bad idea to let a hatchery steelhead go if you are downstream from the hatchery and the hatchery may be in danger of not making its egg take for the year. I think this, too, is a different issue, though, because this deals with hatchery fish being caught during a hatchery fish season, not in what would normally not be a hatchery season.

2. Enforcement issues could arise if a fish is retained, say, on the Skagit River in March. Since enforcement is already spread way too thin, it's easier to remember that "any fish retained is poached", than have to check every fish for an adipose. While I think this is the most valid reason against, it doesn't seem to be an issue from November through February, so why should it be any more of an issue in March or April?

Here are a few anecdotes of mine that helped me come up with this topic.

Fishing the Skagit several years ago in April we managed to pull five fish out of one long run. One was a wild buck, one was a chrome and very fresh wild hen, one was a very ripe, either totally or mostly spawned hen. The other two were both spewing hatchery bucks.

While I wouldn't have eaten, or even smoked, either one of them, if allowed to keep them I would have. Thankfully crab bait is a legal use of sport caught fish...as they would have been frozen in steaks and used for crab bait, if I could have. I think crab bait would be infinitely more useful than those little bucks attempting to spawn with those wild hens that were in the run with them.

Any thoughts?

I think this issue will become more important as hatchery programs move more and more towards broodstock programs which provide hatchery fish throughout the winter/spring season, rather than just in Nov. and Dec., with a few in January.

Fish on...
Todd.

I let four hatchery fish go on the skagit saturday simply because I didn't have a need for them. Normally I keep them but this past year I got 50+kings plus countless silvers. I give a lot of fish away and eat even more but my freezer is pretty full and I don't think I have a need for more. During years with low returns (like this) it makes it that much easier for me to let one go. As for keeping a fish for crab bait I've never done that. If I need bait then I'll just freeze a few heads and backs.

rcl187,

I'm in no way advocating that you must keep the fish...I'm advocating that if you catch a hatchery fish during an open steelhead season and want to keep it, why should you not be able to.

Fish on...

Todd.

I usually just release most steelhead and most salmon in rivers. I have been known to keep the accational fish in a river; like last Augest when I caught a silver in the Quilleute (sp) that had sealice on it and herring in its stomach. Some places I get weird looks when I release a fish but I think it is for the better. Either somebody else can catch it or the hatchery could use it and if it is wild, in the case of salmon, it can go spawn so I can catch its offspring. Plus, why keep a fish in the river when its not the best condition when you can get salmon in the salt that have blood red meat and you have to be dumb not to catch them?

Since I prefer eating salmon the choice is easy for me. Unless I need a whole fish for a BBQ all hatchery steelhead are either released or bonked and given away. I have no problem doing either. Nates get released unless they are pumping blood.

Often a released fish can be caught again.... sometimes even by you!

.... double your fun, catch it twice!

OK, guys...

I think you all know my recored when it comes to catch and release...I've caugt a rash load of $hit over the years for my super-support of it. And I do release hatchery fish...lots of them.

I'll clarify a little more so you know exactly what I'm getting at.

Take yourself out of the context of Nov. through February hatchery fish fishing. Put yourself in March and April on streams that have CnR seasons for wild fish, like the Skagit or Sauk.

If in March you catch a hatchery steelhead, you are required to release it. My question is...

Why should you not be allowed to keep a hatchery fish during those times, if you would like to? It would satisfy a few things...the desire to keep fish that most fishermen have, and the protection of wild fish by removing potential hatchery spawners from the wild.

I will never advocate the retention of wild fish, and I will never say that someone has to keep a hatchery fish if they choose not to. I just don't like releasing a hatchery fish that is 1)not likely to make it to a hatchery, and 2) is likely to spawn in the wild.

Fish on...

Todd.

Todd

What about milking the eggs out of the hatchery females and the milt from the males... A hatchery fish spawning in the river = dead wild fish.
Hmm i am sure a gamie would have a problem with that but is there technically a law against it??? I wonder?

I have mixed feelings about this subject as it relates to limits. I hate to see limits increased for a couple reasons.

1. it doesn't allow more people to catch fish. It promotes a very few people keeping more and more fish.

2. it breeds the mentality of killing everything you catch. I think thats destructive to the sport and bad for sportsmans ethics in general.
On the other hand I am all for getting all the fish out of the river before they spawn. I don't think egg take should even be an issue. they all use chambers creek fish anyway just get eggs from a river that did better.. If all the rivers are bad ( like last year) well thats just how hatcheries are, unreliable.

I don't think there should ever be a season closed to the retention of hatchery steelhead unless the stream is closed entirely for that season.

I love catching and smoking hatchery steelhead but i wouldn't miss it if they were gone and if they were gone our rivers would , i believe be teeming with wild steelhead.
I don't know about the rest of the state but i think on the East Lewis and Washougal rivers that the p[lanting of hatchery fish or maybe just too many hatchery fish is THE primary reason steelhead stocks are not responding to improved habitat conditions. yet Chums are rebounding well. The difference? chums don't need the instream rearing habitat like steelhead do . Such habitats are already full of hatchery coho chinook winter and summer steelhead juveniles.. There is no room for wild steelhead..

Rob,

All your points are well taken...but you hit on the thrust of my entire question here:

Fish on...

Todd.

So you would rather "bonk" a small hatchery buck than let it spawn with a native female. What about those native females that have no wild buck to spawn with? Supposedly, the low wild returning natives need all of the help they can get, So my thought is that a particially wild fish is better than none. In Utopia we would not need to quible about such things, but here, where the fish traverse nets in the salt, and have to fight through the nets in the rivers, i would think that any wild fish would be better than none at all!
I will go a step further and say that because i think that most strains of wild fish have become diluted, i feel that there should be a choice on if you kill a wild fish or not. I agree with the limits that they have set on the peninsula rivers,(one wild fish a day, five per season). The reason that i do is because some will be caught in nets,some die from hook mortality, and others submit to poachers and the like, and if i am on a river that allows me the option, i will sometimes take that option.There i said, before i get flamed to death, remember that at least i had the b@lls to come right out and say it, NOT say one thing and do another!

Todd, let me put a different spin on this. You're fishing a stream that uses broodstock for their hatchery. It's January or February or March and you catch a downstream spawned hen. Since the fish is still in the river, you have to assume that this fish spawned in the river and is now headed back out to the salt. She's brightened up again, and ready to go. Do you retain or do you let her go? My vote - let her go. I don't think this scenario was exactly where you were headed, but it has happened to me several times on a small coastal stream.

todd ~ I've got to agree with the idea of being allowed to keep hatchery fish whenever a river/stream is open to fishing. I guess the only problem with this would be that most people don't catch very many brats in march/april. It happens but lets face it ~ the majority are nates. Being from woolley I know a lot of the attitudes around here are that "if I catch it I'm keeping it" regardless of what the regs say. I think this plays a big role especially in terms of enforcement. If a warden sees a fish getting tossed on the bank he will know it's illegal whether its hatchery or native. If people were allowed to keep the hatchery fish he would have to question the odds and might decide it's not worth his time to further investigate. The same pretty much goes for people reporting poachers. It's probably just easier to manage if people are allowed to keep fish when most fish are of hathery origin and are forced to release them when they aren't.

Todd (or ??),

Pardon my ignorance of the issue, but why don't we want the hatchery steelhead to spawn out in the river? Or a hatchery buck to spawn with a wild hen?

Aren't they essentially from the same stock? If not, why would it harm the run to have a bit of cross-breeding between hatchery and wild?

I am sure there is substantial science behind that position, but could someone briefly explain it to me?

Appreciate the replies, in advance, and again, my apolgies for the lack of education.

Mike B

You should be able to.! However, My assumption is that enforcement thought it would be easier to close the river down during times when there is a predominance of wild fish present, rather than enforce it.

Also,

If we had people out there fishing for brats during the times of the season when wild fish are known to be running and spawning, why would we want more people out trying to catch a stray brat? It would only serve to hurt the wild populations further. A CNR season for wild fish detours alot of fisherman from making the trip out to fish steelies, it isn't as attractive a fishery for some people.

Mike B - Conventional wisdom is that the hatchery fish are genetically inferior to the native fish. It's certainly not nearly as adapted to the specific stream as is the native. If we have that spawning activity, it is inevitable that there will be genetic weakening of the native offspring.

Todd, interesting point. If indeed incorporating wild brood stock is the future of hatch reform then it could mean the end of targetted C&R steelhead fisheries to replaced by total WSR, no exceptions, on certain systems. Of course the impact of hook mortality on wild stocks needs to be reexamined if seasons are lengthened to allow late brat harvest.

Whoops...Sky Guy just reiterating your last point.

I don't agree with that! IF (and thats a big IF) the natives are so much hardier than the brats, then why would spawning weaken the species. Genetics have time and again taken the strength from both parents and kept the Strongest traits. So it would seem that to bring more diversity into the mix would ulitmately make the whole run hardier, thus able to withstand the rigors of travel and survival.Perpetuating hardier and more plentiful fish.

Todd, I feel your pain. As previously stated, enforcement might be a key issue here. Another factor, at least in your Skagit/Sauk example would be a harvest issue with the tribes. As you well know, the tribes are pretty aggressive in netting Skagit system steelhead. If the recs are taking fish in March/April, even though they are only marked fish, the tribes might make a case for some harvest time during March/April. And we all know how selective their fishing methods are.

Maybe you should have Dr. Kevorkian with you during March/April for those ripe hatchery bucks...J/K

Interesting thoughts over nature vs nurture for steelhead.

Are broodstock offspring just as stupid as other non-broodstock hatchery offspring?

How come the WDFW doesn't employ avid broodstock programs on our rivers (for steelhead)?

Smalma? SalmoG? Cowlitzfisherman? (any conspiracies, here? ) Anyone? Just curious.

To Mike B. ..... do a search on this, Mike. I'm not putting you off, but this topic has been thrashed around many times and there have been some very courteous and informative replies. Eddie gave you the short version, but is correct.

Todd ..... you da man! I am surprised that you would initiate such a topic. Good one!!

My view is that hatchery fish retention SHOULD be allowed at all times, PROVIDING that ALL hatchery fish are marked.
As far as enforcement goes.......since when is it a concern that enforcement be easy??? You mean a warden might have to actually look to see if the dead fish has a fin clip?