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#238501 - 03/26/04 02:04 PM 5 Serious questions for WSC and its policy
cowlitzfisherman Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/14/00
Posts: 1828
Loc: Toledo, Washington
Jerry-Todd- Bob- Double Haul

I have read through the WSC Mission Statement again and all of the rest of the WSC website. Several things are not very clear to me, so I have a couple of question for you and your group to answer. It may or may not help some of us better understand who and what WSC is, and are all about.

1) Is it WSC position to have C&R on all wild steelhead permanently, or does WSC promote other addition harvest to occur besides just C&R mortally when runs are stronger?

2) If so, how much stronger does WSC believe that each run of wild steelhead in each river system must be before WSC will support harvest of wild steelhead?

3) At what point in time, and at what numbers will WSC support future Harvest, if any?

4) Since WSC has developed charts to show that wild steelhead runs are declining, will WSC also support harvest if and when new charts show those numbers have/or are increasing?

5) Or is it WSC goal and position to never allow harvest again on any wild steelhead, other then C&R mortally? (this is differnt then question #!)

I have a lot more questions, but first I would like to hear what your group's position is on each of the above questions.

Cowlitzfisherman
_________________________
Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

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#238502 - 03/26/04 03:22 PM Re: 5 Serious questions for WSC and its policy
Aaron Offline
Alevin

Registered: 01/30/04
Posts: 17
Loc: King County
Good questions CFM...I'd like to hear their answers as well.

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#238503 - 03/26/04 03:29 PM Re: 5 Serious questions for WSC and its policy
Jerry Garcia Offline



Registered: 10/13/00
Posts: 9013
Loc: everett
Answers will come soon as these are questions we have discussed and if memory serves me right, not sure if we had reached consensus.
_________________________
would the boy you were be proud of the man you are

Growing old ain't for wimps
Lonnie Gane

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#238504 - 03/26/04 03:43 PM Re: 5 Serious questions for WSC and its policy
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27838
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
CFM,

We are in the process, along with the other two dozen or so groups involved in the last three Steelhead Summits, of creating a harvest management policy, which would include the answers to all those questions.

Since it is a work in process, there are no answers to those questions, yet, but there will be, and you'll know about it ASAP when the document is done and signed off on by a majority of the participants.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#238505 - 03/26/04 06:47 PM Re: 5 Serious questions for WSC and its policy
cowlitzfisherman Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/14/00
Posts: 1828
Loc: Toledo, Washington
Jerry-Todd- Bob- Double Haul


Well since WSC can not or will not answer the above 5 question at this time, here are 11 more questions on the WSC website that also needs to have reasonable answer before people will give them any more support.
Quote:
"The Wild Steelhead Coalition was formed by a concerned group of citizens whose goal is to reverse the decline of returning wild steelhead by solving the problems that they face. Over-harvest, poor hatchery and management practices, and habitat degradation have caused the decline of wild steelhead in the Pacific Northwest."
6) What does WSC intend to do once it succeeds in reversing "the decline"? The WSC Mission Statement does not say what WSC will do as far as future "harvest opportunity" is concerned, or what will be the target for recovery success. This makes the WSC goals very unclear, and makes it Extremely difficult to support.
Quote:
The WSC is comprised of concerned citizens determined to reverse the factors that have negatively impacted wild steelhead, and in so doing, restore healthy and viable populations of wild steelhead to the Pacific Northwest
7) Again, WSC does not show or say what those "healthy and viable populations and numbers of wild steelhead are. How can WSC restore them when they do not even know what those real numbers are?
Quote:
To increase fish runs, more wild fish must return to their rivers and spawn. To that end, the WSC promotes year round, catch and release of all wild steelhead in the Pacific Northwest
8) Why is it that WSC purposed "To increase fish runs"? If not to increase sport harvest and oppertunity? What are WSC real goals? It also appears that "the WSC promotes year round, catch and release of all wild steelhead in the Pacific Northwest" How can WSC justify catch and release of "all wild steelhead", even when there are many wild stocks of steelhead falling below escapement needs or levels?
Quote:
The models and policies that drive fisheries management must significantly change. Maximum Sustained Harvest and Maximum Sustained Yield have failed to protect and perpetuate our wild fish, and in many cases have been the driving force behind their decline. New models that are based on factors other than the greatest possible harvest of wild fish are necessary to return fish runs to safe levels.
9) What "New Models" is WSC recommending or proposing to be use?

Quote:
In promotion of these goals, the Wild Steelhead Coalition is an organization that provides a voice that unites the public, private, and other interests who desire and depend on wild steelhead. The WSC provides a voice for recreational fishermen, businesses whose livelihoods depend on recreational fishing, recreational fishing clubs and conservation groups, united in common goals, through consultation, association, and collaboration with those clubs and groups.
10) WSC says that "The WSC provides a voice for recreational fishermen" What voice did WSC "provide" for the "recreational fishermen" who enjoy harvest?

Quote:
#1 Objective: 2002 Wild Steelhead Summit

Action Plan:
A) Many factors beyond harvest affect the health and survival of wild steelhead and must be recognized, better understood, and corrected.
11) What has WSC done to better understand and "correct" the survival of wild steelhead besides lobbing for c&r?
Quote:
B) Develop a list of discussion issues needing action to improve/recover wild steelhead runs.
12) I could not locate this "list" on the site. Did I miss it? If so, where can we find the list that shows these actions that WSC is proposing to improve and recover the wild steelhead?
Quote:
Business Plan:

B) Determine if an alliance between the organizations can be developed to take collective action (s) on specific issues
13) It would be nice if WSC would tell us and its members who these "alliances" are. Did WSC develop any "alliances" when they lobbied the commission for year round c&r, if so who where these "alliances"?
Quote:
Harvest models have failed wild salmonids in the 20th and 21st centuries as they are too simplistic and do not account for environmental variations, the role of life history diversity in population resilience, and other factors that are critical for sustaining healthy wild salmonid populations (freshwater habitat degradation, negative impacts of hatchery programs, etc).
14) WSC states "Harvest models have failed wild salmonids in the 20th and 21st centuries as they are too simplistic and do not account for environmental variations" What models does WSC have, or propose to use to correct this problem? How does WSC intend to account for environmental variations"? What is WSC Plan?
Quote:
Ocean and terrestrial productivity continually changes without notice or prediction, and this has major impacts and changes in salmonid populations. The only way to plan for these changes is to manage wild stocks much more conservatively than they have been with “maximum sustained harvest (MSH)” guidelines.
15) WSC said "The only way to plan for these changes is to manage wild stocks much more conservatively than they have been with “maximum sustained harvest (MSH)” guidelines.

What beside c&r does the WSC propose to use or do to "manage" all wild stocks with?
Quote:
The life history of wild steelhead is far more diverse than most other salmonids. Seasonal runs, multiple year classes within a run, repeat spawners, juveniles that spend 1 to 3 years in the river, a riverine only component (rainbow trout), and river specific genetics, if protected, will provide resiliency and stability to these fish, even during poor environmental cycles.
16) If the above WSC statement is really true and accurate, why is it then that WSC proposed a statewide ban on the "all harvest" of all wild steelhead in "all rivers", even if they are not experiencing poor environmental cycles?

I got a few more questions, but this should be enough for right now. Once these questions are fully answered, maybe more people will support WSC.

Finally, Todd you said "along with the other two dozen or so groups involved in the last three Steelhead Summits"

Will you please post a list of who these 2 dozen groups are? I for one would like to see who the supports are for statewide wild steelhead release is. People like to know who they are sleeping with, if you know what I mean

Cowlitzfisherman
_________________________
Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

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#238506 - 03/26/04 08:01 PM Re: 5 Serious questions for WSC and its policy
Anonymous
Unregistered


TTT \:\)

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#238507 - 03/26/04 08:20 PM Re: 5 Serious questions for WSC and its policy
Jerry Garcia Offline



Registered: 10/13/00
Posts: 9013
Loc: everett
Cow, We did not lobby for year around CnR, it was Wild Steelhead Release(CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW). We have discussed various models for CNR, but have not come up with a plan to have the membership vote on. Our focus now is for the steelhead stocks to rebuild through WSR(not CNR). Keep track of this thread as it may be a while before all your questions are answered. WSR not CNR. WSR not CNR. WSR not CNR. WSR not CNR. WSR not CNR .
WSR not CNR. WSR not CNR. WSR not CNR
WSR not CNR. WSR not CNR. WSR not CNR
WSR not CNR. WSR not CNR. WSR not CNR
WSR not CNR. WSR not CNR. WSR not CNR
WSR not CNR. WSR not CNR. WSR not CNR
WSR not CNR. WSR not CNR. WSR not CNR
WSR not CNR. WSR not CNR. WSR not CNR
WSR not CNR. WSR not CNR. WSR not CNR
WSR not CNR. WSR not CNR. WSR not CNR
WSR not CNR. WSR not CNR. WSR not CNR
WSR not CNR. WSR not CNR. WSR not CNR
WSR not CNR. WSR not CNR. WSR not CNR
WSR not CNR. WSR not CNR. WSR not CNR
CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW, get your facts straight, thats the one thing you do that's patently unfair.
_________________________
would the boy you were be proud of the man you are

Growing old ain't for wimps
Lonnie Gane

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#238508 - 03/26/04 08:39 PM Re: 5 Serious questions for WSC and its policy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Garcia:
CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW.
nope, move your wallet alittle more to the right lol

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#238509 - 03/26/04 08:39 PM Re: 5 Serious questions for WSC and its policy
Hairlipangler Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 07/03/03
Posts: 154
Loc: Edgewood
\:\) Can you repeat that.......

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#238510 - 03/26/04 08:57 PM Re: 5 Serious questions for WSC and its policy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ok.

CWF: I don't quite understand the history that brought on this slew of questions for WSC. I am not a member of that group, but it does seem to me that your giving them a hard time for a reason. Could you fill us in, specifically, on what is driving this Q&A session? (I just wanna understand).

Jerry:

You say (more than once, mind you) that WSR and CnR are different things.

Could you expound on this comment?

Seems to me if I catch a Wild Steelhead, release it back to the water, I have then performed a Wild Steelhead Release.

Prior to its release, however, I did have to catch it...therefore it was also a CnR fish.

Is my logic illogical?



Mike

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#238511 - 03/26/04 09:07 PM Re: 5 Serious questions for WSC and its policy
eddie Offline
Carcass

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 2380
Loc: Valencia, Negros Oriental, Phi...
Mike, here is the fundamental difference in my mind:

We have CnR fisheries that target wild fish for catch & release.

Wild Steelhead Release says that an incidental catch of wild steelhead while fishing for hatchery fish, must be released.

That's my distinction, subtle as that may be.
_________________________
"You're not a g*dda*n looney Martini, you're a fisherman"

R.P. McMurphy - One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest

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#238512 - 03/26/04 09:31 PM Re: 5 Serious questions for WSC and its policy
Smalma Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 2834
Loc: Marysville
Mike -
My understanding of WSR and CnR is same as Eddie's.

Jerry -
given the above are you saying that as the moritorium is put in place you expect that there will be no spring fishing next two years on the Skagit/Quilleyute etc as there are few hatchery fish that time of the year? Any fishing would be CnR. Guess I'm confused again.

Tight lines
S malma

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#238513 - 03/26/04 09:36 PM Re: 5 Serious questions for WSC and its policy
cowlitzfisherman Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/14/00
Posts: 1828
Loc: Toledo, Washington
Eddie

Help us here!

You said "Wild Steelhead Release says that an incidental catch of wild steelhead while fishing for hatchery fish, must be released."

Can you possibly point that one out to us where that is said in the new commission ruling or their minutes?

Mike b

WSC has taken a strong position on this board. They should not have any problems defending there position by answering 16 simple questions that are directly related to their mission statement. If they can do that, then their mission statement becomes sounder. If they can not do it, well that tells us all that we may need to know much, much more about WSC. No personal attacks here against any members on this issue. It's 100% about who and what WSC mission really says and stands for.

My questions are all very simple questions to answer and they were taken directly from the WSC website, and if WSC statements are truly valid, should be very simple for them to answer.

I just went through the commissioner's minutes again, and I really can't see where c&r is any different than wsr, except that it names just one single specie (steelhead). This should be a cake walk for WSC to do!


Cowlitzfisherman
_________________________
Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

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#238514 - 03/26/04 11:05 PM Re: 5 Serious questions for WSC and its policy
eddie Offline
Carcass

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 2380
Loc: Valencia, Negros Oriental, Phi...
The fundamental difference is probably one of semantics. In my mind, CnR relates to the special season(s) that WDFW sets to TARGET wild steelhead. WSR says that wild steelhead, whenever and wherever they are caught must be released. Quite frankly, I'm not sure how WDFW can have CnR seasons on Wild Steelhead under the current moratorium. If every wild steelhead is valuable (as it seems to be under a blanket moratorium) then hooking mortality is too high a price to pay for a CnR season. That is the way that this supporter of WSR sees it. I will not participate in a targeted CnR season because the genetic cargo that Wild Steelhead carry is too valuable to waste.
Disclaimer: I am not a member of any group nor am I attempting to or speaking for any other supporters of WSR.
_________________________
"You're not a g*dda*n looney Martini, you're a fisherman"

R.P. McMurphy - One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest

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#238515 - 03/26/04 11:19 PM Re: 5 Serious questions for WSC and its policy
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27838
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
CFM,

Here is the final say that anyone from the WSC will have on your questions...not because I don't want to answer questions, but that I am going to give you the answers and that will be that.

#1-#5 As noted above, there are no answers yet. This has nothing to do with cannot or will not give you the answer...there is no answer. I'll let you know as soon as there is.

#6 Same answer as #1-#5, the WSC has not completed its harvest policy yet, so I can't tell you what it is.

#7 We are compiling stock status reports, and population trends, so that we know what we've had, what we have, and where we're going. This is an ongoing process, as is determining what a healthy population is for each stream.

#8 The WSC in no way, shape, or form supports any fishery at all on stocks that cannot handle even incidental impacts. Period. And I guarantee that you have never heard the WSC lobby for or support any such fishery.

#9 The models are being developed. Again, you'll all get to see them when they're done.

#10 Support to harvest all the hatchery fish you can possibly catch legally, which comprises well over 90% of the catch in the state. If what you mean is "what voice did we provide for recreational fishermen who want to eat wild steelhead", then the answer to that is no voice right now. As noted above, when the harvest policy is done, then there will be a voice for that, too.

#11 Instream flows statewide, habitat concerns on several streams, commercial bycatch on the Columbia, and dozens of speakers educating our membership on all issues that face wild steelhead. You already know all this...why are you continuing to imply that all we care about is WSR? Didn't you just read my letter to NOAA regarding the Col. River?

#12 The list was developed among the groups two years ago, but is under constant change and modification as issues come up or fold into others. Suffice it to say that the issues fall under all four of the 4H's; habitat, harvest, hydropower, and hatcheries.

#13 They've been listed before, and I'll get them for you again.

#14 See #9 above.

#15 See #9 above, and #'s 1-5

#16 There is no connection between the quote you cited and supporting statewide WSR, per se. If you want to know why the WSC supports WSR statewide for all rivers, I'd suggest you go and read the 9 page thread, where we discussed that very subject ad nauseum. I doubt, however, that you've forgotten that already, so why are you asking?

Quote:
Will you please post a list of who these 2 dozen groups are? I for one would like to see who the supports are for statewide wild steelhead release is. People like to know who they are sleeping with, if you know what I mean
See #13 above.

Quote:
I just went through the commissioner's minutes again, and I really can't see where c&r is any different than wsr, except that it names just one single specie (steelhead). This should be a cake walk for WSC to do!
Not only is it a cake walk, it's the same cake walk it has been all along. Now I know you can be a crotchety old bugger \:D , but you must by now know the difference between CnR and WSR. If you didn't before, Smalma and Eddie just posted it for what must be the fortieth time someone has posted it in the last month.

The reason that it's not in the minutes is BECAUSE WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT CATCH AND RELEASE (emphasis to allay any possible confusion :rolleyes: ). The discussion was about WSR, which is why CnR, tiger musky, grass carp, treble hooks, and hatchery runs on the Cowlitz were not mentioned, either. It had nothing to do with any of those other things, including CnR. It's just about WSR. It's just about WSR. It's not about CnR.

Those are the answers that exist. Nothing else can be said until the models and policies are done being developed. They've been being developed over the last couple of years, and will likely take a while longer to get done.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#238516 - 03/26/04 11:32 PM Re: 5 Serious questions for WSC and its policy
Bob Offline

Dazed and Confused

Registered: 03/05/99
Posts: 6367
Loc: Forks, WA & Soldotna, AK
Okay CFM ... I'll bite.

I'm not quite sure where this vendetta of yours is coming from based on the fact that you've spent your life around a river of hatchery fish that is very unlike most of the rivers that are affected by the recent decision.

it's clear that you disagree with the beliefs of most WSC members, that's fine. Don't join. It's not for everyone, no "group" is.

As Jerry has stated as a fledgling group, not all stances / situations have been fully hammered out. What will follow is NOT offical WSC poilicy, but I know that many within the group share many of these same feelings.

From MY standpoint, this is how I feel, and I know many in the WSC will agree on most:

1) Permanent. No more, nada. The state of WA had enough sense 75 years ago to decommercialize these fish. I persoanlly feel it's grand time to treat them as a sport fish and not a food fish. Throughout most of the year, hatchery steelhead can be found somehwere in this state in appreciable numbers, so if it's about killing them for food, those anglers have that opportunity. I also don't buy the wallmounter argument either as there are now a number of taxidermists that specialize in mounts w/o a dead fish. Our time is coming, like it or not. Only so many fish to go around. Other parts of the country have accepted C&R without too much issue for a number of the billfish species and bass. Hell, even the Kenai peninsula where I spend my summers ... where thousands locals flock in droves to scoop up certain species of salmon in gillnets and dipnets ... the people have accepted the idea of C&R for wild steelhead. It's not the end of the world, trust me!

2) N/A, see #1.

3) Personally, perhaps never. If there ever comes a day when I see this fish physically fighting to spawn on top of one another or that I can somehow be guaranteed that the system cannot support even one more fish .. then maybe.

4) See #1 and #3, not likely in my book. And if for some reason, yes, it would be under a wide slection of criteria: all aspects of run healthy from timing, to natural age-class distribution, to natural levels of repeat spawning females -- one of the most important members of the steelhead community.

5) Not too different than #1 in my book. You do NOT have to have a consumptive fishery to have a successful one. This comes not only from a personal standpoint, but also that of one engaged in the fishing industry.

6) The effort to maintain these runs and angling opportunity just doesn't have a finsihing point. As is evident, there are a number of factors that influence these runs ... they will never all go away. C&R is the easiest, most direct way of lessing our impact on these fish with the total cessation of all fishing. Any regardless of the propaganda that some spew, that isn't what we all want is it? Kill them off so we get to apoint where we have no choiuce but to end all fishing? If you can honestly answer "Yes" to that, then frankly, I could care less about your opinion and you have nio right to consider yourself a sportsman of any type.

7) I touched on this briefly before ... when all aspects of a population can be considered healthy. It's an impossibilty to answer this question. If we (WSC or WDFW or Joe Blow angler) had the magic answer, this whole discussion would be moot! We work with 20+ year-old models on the primary coastal rivers, in some cases where wild steelhead retention
has been allowed, we don't even know the first thing about some of the runs ... the smaller creeks are a good example. What are the "real" numbers in terms of historical run sizes or tru carrying capacity or how many fish were of certain age classes or ...???

Talk to some of the folks that have been in this area long before Boldt or my lifespan, and you really start to wonder if we're even close!

8) To many, increased opportunity and increased success is a far better use of a resource than increasing harvest. Does crowding everyone into one section of river or a short fishing season increase opportunity or better the experience. I think not, and many others feel the same way. With the seond portion of question #8, you're twisting words. At no time has the WSC or myself condoned fishing of any sort on runs that are on their last legs. What that might mean is that you can continue to come fish the Bogachiel for hatchery fihs in Decemeber when there are few wild fish left, but you won't be able to crack that now rare December nate that you might possibly catch on the head. For all those that subscribve to the theory of "You should quit fishing for them", are you ready to tell me that you'll forgo any early season fishing opportunity and only fish in April ... when the numbers of wild fish are the strongest and that's when they MIGHT be able to support the harvest? I didn't think so.

9) OY for example takes socio-economic factors into consideration. That would be one option. Example: we have 100 fish over our goal. Do we have a one week kill season to harvest this 100 fish OR do we have a couple of months of fishing in which 100 fish are filled through incidental mortality. As a guide, I know the answer in my book. If you presented that exact scenario to most local bisinesses, I think they'd also choose the latter. That's part of looking at other models. perhaps we ight even go a step further and look towards models that put maximum numbers of fish in the river period ... instead of seeing what the most we can can take out would be. Not only does the later scenario make for the best quality fishing, it also gives more room for error on the behalf of the fish if for some reason we might have something like: a flood, poor ocean conditions, overharvest by tribal nets ... oh none of that happens, does it?

10) Oh no, you got me! But harvest of hatchery stocks is still something that myself and the WSC does support. As I mentioned, hatchery steelhead are available most of the year. If cracking one on the head is what it's all about to you, I'd suggest either visiting your local seafood market or participating in bratfest \:\)

11) All aspects of the H's. Perhaps go to a meeting and listen to some of the guest speakers. Many members are trying to educate themselves and the group as to all the factors that affect these fish. Over time, I would imagine that as connections and mebership grows, that other issues can be addressed. As I mentioned previously, the easiest way to immediately lessen our impact on these fish short of cessation of fishing is to let them go ... thus , goal #1.

12) Here are some identified issues per Steelhead Summit III ... I will refer back to the answers in this brief to answer other questions later:

November 8, 2003, Bellevue, Washington --

Twenty-six steelhead advocates from more than 20
angling and conservation organizations met for a third
Steelhead Summit, working together once again on
behalf of the northwest's very special seagoing
rainbow trout.

Summit I and II, also hosted by the Wild Steelhead
Coalition, were conducted in November 2002 and May
2003, respectively. At the earlier events, key
steelhead issues were identified, and committees
formed to draft policy and action plans on each.
Examples are habitat, harvest, hydropower, hatchery
practices, research, education and public outreach.
Summit III continued these, and other, discussions,
and inter-organizational liaisons were strengthened.

A summit group steering committee was established, a
communications network was refined, and future goals
were outlined. Another summit meeting is tentatively
planned for spring of 2004.

Organizations represented at Summit III were: Wild
Steelhead Coalition,Trout Unlimited, Puget Sound
Anglers, American Rivers, Washington Wildlife
Federation, National Wildlife Federation, Federation
of Fly Fishers (and several FFF clubs), Washington
Trout, Northwest Women Flyfishers, Willapa Anglers,
Olympic Peninsula Guides Association, North Umpqua
Foundation, Steamboaters, Little Bear Creek Protective
Association, and the Recreational Fishing Alliance.

Other groups involved in the Summit's "umbrella"
organization are the Sierra Club, NW Sportfishing
Industry Alliance, Native Fish Society, Wild
Washington, Save Our Wild Salmon, and several British
Columbia fishing clubs.

Summit groups will continue to collaborate between
meetings, and are expected to make significant input
to WDFW and other agency policy processes, as
appropriate.

13) Please see #12

14) Please see #9. Also it's important to note that as I understand it, the push for the emplacement of the moritorium was to "stop the bleeding" while management policies are re-evaluated given the poor track record of MSY management across Washington State.

15) As previously mentioned, models that don't keep stocks managed on a harvest-only basis. Models that geared towards greater numbers of spawners and not necessarily the biggest potential harvest. Given the demise of so many runs in the state, isn't time that if we're going to goof, we do it for the good of the fish and not the stocking of the freezer or the egg bucket?

16) Because many of us believe that the way in which steelhead are currently managed is an endless downward spiral. Unfortunately, it often appears that we do so much damage to many of these stocks that once we take the harvest out of the picture, they still don't show significant increases in the short term. Why? State biologists seem to think that it's ocean conditions, but perhaps it's due more to fact that they're a fragile stock and once we mess things up just so much, the recovery process just isn't very fast to begin. perhaps it's the fact that we've wiped out those repeat girls that carry so many more eggs than the virgin girls, maybe it's the fact that people and nets selectively take the biggest fish out of the sytem on a regular basis. No one knows for sure right now, and no one may know for sure for as long as any of us are alive. We do know one thing though ... over 90% of the streams in the state have seen huge drops in the runs over the past few decades. Some saw quicker declines for a number of reasons ... it's time to help protect the few streams that haven't suffered total collapses yet before they do. Our belief is that C&R of wild stocks is the first step in a long process.
_________________________
Seen ... on a drive to Stam's house:



"You CANNOT fix stupid!"

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#238517 - 03/26/04 11:54 PM Re: 5 Serious questions for WSC and its policy
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12616

Well said TRBO! These fish are way too special to be relegated to just another meat fishery. Left to historic management, it's just a matter of time til we harvest them to extinction. The last thing we need is more rivers devoid of their wild heritage.... say another Cowlitz? No thanks!
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#238518 - 03/27/04 12:15 AM Re: 5 Serious questions for WSC and its policy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by eddie:
Quite frankly, I'm not sure how WDFW can have CnR seasons on Wild Steelhead under the current moratorium.
its because no-where in the moratorium does it say you cant harvest wild steelhead

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#238519 - 03/27/04 12:34 AM Re: 5 Serious questions for WSC and its policy
Geoduck Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 08/10/02
Posts: 431
Bob, I will respectfully assert that steelhead have not been de-comercialized. There may not be any non-tribal netting for them, but steelhead are heavily commericialized.

Clearly many people in this state, yourself and CFM included have made and continue to make their living directly off of steelhead both wild and hatchery.

Many tackle shops and guides around the state do this. Seems like a pretty commercial enterprise to me. May not be strictly speaking an extractive commericialization, but it is definitely commmerical and has impacts on steelhead populations.

It is precisely this commericialization that has made the WSR issue so contentious in places like Forks.

I for one would like to see some of the proceeds from this commercialization benefit steelhead. Maybe a 5% tax used directly on steelhead habitat conservation. This would definitely benefit the steelhead business in the long run and genuinely help the fish.


Just my $0.02
_________________________
Dig Deep!

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#238520 - 03/27/04 02:41 AM Re: 5 Serious questions for WSC and its policy
Anonymous
Unregistered


CWF,

Thanks. Like I said, just wanted to better understand the issues.

Eddie, thanks for the explaination. Your right, it is a very slight distinction. That distinction (as I understand it) being that there could be WSR in place and not a single CnR or open season anywhere in the state, the other being a season with WSR as a requirement.

My opinion, for what its worth, is NO PROGRAM is going to have much of an effect (overall) until the non-tribal commercial AND tribal gillnets are BANNED from being in waters that could potentially contain Wild Steelhead.

If it takes a Federal mandate to achieve this, then we (as a single entity) must take the shortest path to achieve that end. It does seem to me that by the time all of these individual groups and state departments get through with all their "studies" there won't be a reasonable gene pool of fish left.

In essence (IMHO), there is too much discussion on the definition of what a "fire" is, or isn't, going on...while Rome burns.

Mike B

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