HEY PLUNKER,

YOU SHOULD RUN FOR SOME LOCAL OFFICE--MAYBE BAGHDAD JIM'S SEAT OR THE OSAMA MAMA PATTY MURRY'S SENATE POSITION. I'D SURE AS HECK VOTE AND CAMPAIGN FOR YOU.

I JUST ABOUT GAVE UP ON THIS SITE A FEW MONTHS AGO--BECAUSE OF ALL THE IRRATIONAL BUSH BASHING, TREE HUGGING ( AND SPIKING)--MOTHER EARTH GAVE US LIFE- NOT GOD CIRCLE JERKING THAT GOES ON.

IT'S NICE TO SEE A CONSERATIVE WEIGH IN A ON THE ISSUES WITH A LEVEL HEADED PERSPECTIVE THAT RESPECTS EARTH-- BUT DOES NOT WORSHIP HER LIKE A FALSE IDOL.

THE SKY ISN'T FALLING!

INTEREST RATES ARE STILL AT ALMOST HISTORIC LOWS--THE STOCK MARKET IS DOING GOOD AND GETTING BETTER-UNEMPLOYMENT IS AROUND THE LOW AVERAGE WE HAD IN THE 90'S AND ALL ECONOMIC INDICATORS SUGGEST THINGS ARE ONLY GOING TO GET BETTER.

ALL THIS AND OUR ENVIROMENT IS IN THE BEST SHAPE ITS BEEN IN IN DECADES.

DESPITE THE FACT THAT BUSH AND HIS CAPITALIST PIG-CORPORATE FAT CAT FRIENDS WANT TO CLEAR CUT, POLLUTE AND PROSTITUTE EVERY SQUARE INCH OF EARTH. JUST TO PAD THEIR POCKETS.

ISN'T IT IRONIC.

BUSH 2004!!!


"IF YOU'RE NOT A LIBERAL AT TWENTY YOU HAVE NO HEART--IF YOU'RE STILL A LIBERAL AT FORTY YOU HAVE NO BRAIN."

Thanks for bringing this topic up Dave...It certainly deserves more thorough investigation. I intend to spend some time reading about this prior to a knee jerk reaction. The partisan nature of the debate is unfortunate as it takes away from focus on the problem.

I think there is a backlash in the country right now against what is perceived as extreme environmental restrictions that go way beyond what is necessary in many cases. For example, the gas price rise we are seeing is in no small part due to a shortage of gasoline refining capacity here in the US. There has not been a refinery built in over 15 years due to environmental protest. In California the restrictions are so severe that they have experienced huge energy price problems and wild fires that destroyed massive residential areas.

I am all for stopping unnecessary exploitation of resources that destroys the fragile environment but I am not for the mentality that says "hands off" just because we say so. I think we should start looking at the population explosion and uncontrolled immigration just as hard as we look at ways to stop all development.

GP: Thanks for the response. I always enjoy debating with you becasue you think before talking.

Here are a few more facts about roadless areas in Idaho:

The Value of Roadless Areas to Idaho’s Fishing and Hunting


Idaho Facts:
Idaho contains 52,961,000 total acres.
Seven percent, or 4,005,653 acres, of Idaho is protected in congressionally mandated wilderness.
9 million acres of inventoried roadless areas remain in the National Forests.
Approximately 4 million acres of roadless BLM lands remain.
32 percent of Idaho’s total land base is roadless.


Trout and Salmon
The single greatest factor in the decline of salmon and steelhead populations in Idaho are the hydro-dams on the lower Snake River. Roadless areas provide crucially important spawning and rearing habitat that can help to “buy time” while the longer term problems associated with dams are resolved.

The table below shows historic habitat and contemporary abundance of selected salmonids, and the extent to which they rely on roadless lands for their survival.


Species Percentage of lost historic habitat Current distribution in roadless areas
Bull Trout 46 percent of historic range 68 percent of current habitat is in roadless areas
Chinook salmon 65 percent of historic range 74 percent of current habitat is in roadless areas
Redband trout 70 percent of historic range 48 percent of current habitat is in roadless areas
Steelhead 61 percent of historic range 74 percent of current habitat is in roadless areas
Westslope cutthroat trout 16 percent of historic range 58 percent of current habitat is in roadless areas

Note: The percentage of current distribution in roadless areas is based on sub-watersheds that are at least 40 percent roadless.


Deer Harvest
51 percent of the land in units yielding more than 70 percent bucks is roadless.
72 percent of the land in units yielding more than 40 percent 4+ pt. bucks is roadless.
94 percent of the land in units yielding both more than 70 percent bucks and more than 40 percent 4+ point bucks is roadless.

Elk Harvest
88 percent of the land in units yielding more than 90 percent branch bulls is roadless.

Note: Units in which less than 50 bull elk were harvested over a two year period were excluded. Also excluded were units where only controlled hunts were allowed.


Deer and Elk Seasons
98 percent of the land in units with November deer seasons is roadless
97 percent of the land in units with September or November elk seasons is roadless.

Bighorn Sheep and Mountain Goat Hunting
67 percent of the land in units allowing sheep and goat hunting is roadless.

303d Sediment-Impaired Streams
94 percent of 303d sediment-impaired streams are located outside roadless areas.

Status of Idaho’s Inventoried Roadless Areas
Forest Service inventoried roadless areas (IRAs) are divided into the following three categories:

1B – IRAs allocated to a forest plan prescription that does not allow road construction and reconstruction.

1B-1 – IRAs allocated to a prescription that does not allow road construction and reconstruction, recommended in the forest plan as wilderness.

1C – IRAs allocated to a prescription that allows road construction and reconstruction. 61 percent of Idaho’s roadless areas fall into this category.

In the absence of lasting roadless protection, Forest Service roadless areas are managed by individual forest plans. Local forest supervisors and district rangers face the difficult task of balancing the exceptional ecological values of roadless areas against local development demands. Without lasting protection, and despite the best efforts of local managers, Idaho’s roadless areas may face the death of a thousand cuts by forest plans that cumulatively erode Idaho’s roadless base. Presently the maintenance and reconstruction backlog on Idaho’s national forest roads exceeds a billion dollars annually.

Dave,


I have been aware of this for over 20 years as I have friends with land in the area. They were approached about mineral rights in the early 80's. The issue about the roadless areas extends to Timber,all minerals and NG not just the NG. It may be on the table now as the first issue but there are others . I am also a taditional bow hunter and a back country horseman and both groups have been involved in this issue in this and other areas for at least 6 years. So don't play off others as ill informed because you went to some extremist conf. last week.

Secondly I never once advocated the use of wilderness areas for anything except recreation. I only pointed out that the checks and balances are there to make sure the best possible decision will be made in this matter. I also pointed out the hypocrisy of your environmentalism as situational at best and your bias to Bush's environmental positions. Like most NW liberals you want your cake as they say. You cannot live the way you do and point the finger to others as being the bad guys.


Have you ever seen how they explore for NG. I have . The Whisky Dick field between Eburg and Vantage in 1982, 83,84 . They drive research truck up and down roads shooting seismic waves into the rocks to create a gas feild map to guage the scope and possible yeild of the feild. They may drill a few test wells. They put Whisky Dick in reserve. I challenge you to drive over and take a few photos of the area and show us what kind of damage was done to that area as a result of this exploration. Show me downstream effect of the exploration on all levels of the ecosystem.

Lastly singing the song about leaving something behind for the kids is two faced and so far from realityit's silly. As long as you live the way you do it is inevitable that these areas will be under increased pressure before they are used for resources. Take it to the bank. To not see that we are all 100% guilty and an equal part of the problem is pure denial.

TheKing:

Damn!!! I worte you a loooong response that would have made you join Earth First, become a vegetarian, and go out and hug a tree. But my G.D. puter ate it all.

I think we have both said what we wanted to and I know I am getting into repeating myself, so I wil stop for now. I will say some of your arguments made sense to me. And I hope we can agree that some areas are worth protecting.

I appreciate that while you vehemantly disagree with me you have done so with no personal insluts or attacks.

I'm going fishing now. But here is a photo that shows one small reason I am against new roads in curently roadless areas. This was taken on the Clearwater River in Idaho.

Dave,

I am more conservationist and green than most here I would guess. I live on a small organic farm. Taking us about 25% of the commercial grid. We raise several types of bees in addition providing habitat for native bees. I have a small stream that feeds into the Snoqualmie river that is 100% native growth on its banks for 200' on each side with no run off from live stock. I have planted 1000 trees from native stock. We use no pesticides and only organic herbicides. Grow my own beef 100% organic . I own two parcels and have set one aside with the county not to be developed. I have restored the habitat enough that we are home to 3 types of native Hawks, Piliated woodpeckers, Flying squirrels and a huge population of black bears and Blacktail deer, Salamanders, 4 types of native tree frogs , porcupine and a whole host of others. I would be willing to also bet that my kids age 5 and 10 could name more native spiecies and how river, creek,lake ,wetland and ocean habitat ecosystems work than most adults here.

Nothing like this one though;-0

Lake Missoula Flood - 18 thousand years ago
Eighteen thousand years ago the Columbia Basin was nearly covered by floodwaters when an ice dam at Lake Missoula in western Montana broke. Large boulders were strewn near the outlet of the Lower Coulee (Lake Lenore). Other boulders were carried in icebergs as far as western Oregon. The floodwaters were 800 feet (250 meters) deep near Pasco and 400 feet (125 meters) deep at Portland.
After the Ice Age, the Columbia River returned to its former channel. The channeled scab lands and large coulees that had been formed were left stranded 500-1600 feet (150-500 meters) above the present river floor and serve as a constant reminder of some of the most unusual episodes in geologic history.


http://vulcan.wr.usgs.gov/Glossary/Glaciers/IceSheets/description_lake_missoula.html

You mean in a house...........with electricity?

I'm pretty sure he can complain........I've read it myself.

Idaho does not need any more roadless area, it just needs to keep what it has already. I just don't get you Plunker... what do you care about roadless areas in Idaho. You state that its about elitest "hikers".. trying to keep everybody else out.. thats not it at all.. Its about keeping something the way it always has been forever. Being from Idaho, and having been in these wilderness areas myself, the majority of the people who actually get up into these areas are hunters, and would resent that statement.

So, Plunker... what do you think should happen. Do you think roads should be built into all these areas so you can hop into your car and drive up there and look around or ??? Whats up there you want to see ??? I am almost certain you have never been in the Frank Church or Gosple hump or anyplace without a road for that matter.. so what are you missing ??? You have an opinion about a place you have never been, never seen, and probably never even thought about.

While fishing is my passion, hunting is my hobby. Dave V brings up some valid points. The majority of the better hunting in Idaho is in areas that are closed to motorized vehicals. There may be roads there, but they are gated. Idaho has done a good job of protecting its resources. Some would like it to sound like this is a federal level thing.. fact is, its what the sportsmen of Idaho want.

So what, not everybody can access these areas... why ??? because they are not tough enough, or don't want to invest in what it takes to do it. You know something... If you want to drive around and hunt out of your car or your 4 wheeler or whatever.. you can do that in Washington. If you want to do some good hunting, you can come over here, but don't piss and moan about the laws.

Locked out by the goverment... thats to funny... If it was something you really wanted to do nobodys stopping you... go on up there, look around.. have a good time, leave your truck at home.

Dans,

I bet Lacey was an awesome wilderness area before all the subdivisions and roads:-) That does not count though I know it had to happen.

Many of state's most common birds at risk

By Ian Ith
Seattle Times staff reporter


PAINTING BY JOHN JAMES AUDUBON
Red knot

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It's long been known that the spotted owl, the marbled murrelet and the snowy plover could become the next dodos.
But even birds as taken for granted as the friendly rufous hummingbird, that tiny, orange backyard visitor, and the yellow warbler, the enemy of garden pests across the state, are vulnerable to rapid decline because of urban sprawl and other human destruction of habitat.

At least, that's the conclusion of a new report to be released today by the Audubon Society of Washington, which says nearly one-third of all bird species common to the state are at risk of sliding toward extinction.

The "State of the Birds" report urges government officials, land managers and individual homeowners alike to take "immediate and focused conservation measures" to protect bird habitat.

The study is also a model for studies the Audubon Society says it wants to do in every state.

The report online


The Audubon Society's "State of the Birds" report will be available online at wa.audubon.org.
About the Audubon Society


The first Audubon chapter began in 1896 in Massachusetts to encourage bird watching and protect birds from the hat industry. It was named for famed wildlife painter John James Audubon (1785-1851). The national organization formed in 1905. Today there are 450,000 members nationally and about 22,000 members among 25 chapters in Washington, with a mission to conserve and restore natural ecosystems and habitats.




"Some of these are birds you would see in your own back yard," said John Flicker, president of the National Audubon Society, who came to Seattle this week to publicize the report.

"We want to raise a red flag that these birds are in trouble, and we can do something together to keep them off the endangered-species list."

The study started with all 447 species of birds that have been documented in Washington, then cut the list to 317 birds that occur commonly enough to warrant review.

Audubon used other published studies, government listings, bird counts and other sources to figure out which birds need the most attention. Then it gathered panels of state and federal government scientists and Audubon experts to prioritize the list.

It identified 93 of the 317 species as having "heightened conservation concern." Of those, 14 species and two subspecies were labeled as being of "immediate concern." Another 14 were called "species of high concern." And the rest were called "early warning species."

Many of the birds on the lists include obvious candidates that are already listed by the state as endangered, threatened or otherwise troubled.

But some species listed by the state as endangered, such as the brown pelican, are only listed as "early warning" species by the Audubon Society.


PAINTING BY JOHN JAMES AUDUBON
Burrowing owl


That's because the state may list a bird as endangered because its population is in trouble nationally. But some species, like the brown pelican, may actually be doing better in Washington, said Tim Cullinan, the director of science and conservation for Audubon Washington.

On the flip side, some birds on the federal endangered-species lists, such as the upland sandpiper, weren't even considered by Audubon because they already have vanished from Washington, Cullinan said.

And some, like the olive-sided flycatcher, are on Audubon's "immediate concern" list but not on any state list. "Maybe we'll see some changes to the state list," Cullinan said.

The report blames a range of factors that influence bird species, but the proliferation of humans is the common theme.

Coastal wetlands have largely disappeared in many places. A third of Washington's inland wetlands are gone, too. Most of the state's riverside habitat is lost or altered. Forests are being replaced by advancing housing developments. The vast majority of the state's sage-dappled steppe and grassy savannas have been replaced by farms or invasive plants that humans introduced.

"We really need to think of our impact as a species on the rest of the world," said Derek Stinson, a state Department of Fish and Wildlife biologist who helped Audubon prioritize its list.

"And if we value these things, we are going to have to start making some sacrifices."

For example, the sharp-tailed grouse used to number in the millions on the prairies of Eastern Washington, Stinson said. Agriculture, herbicides and brush burning have reduced the population to fewer than 1,000 birds in seven isolated pockets of habitat. The grouse is now listed as threatened by the state and of "immediate concern" by Audubon.

Even some common backyard birds face huge population declines as urban sprawl cuts the places for them to nest, feed and thrive, said Cullinan. The rufous hummingbird's population has dropped by half in recent decades, despite the affection people have for it.

The yellow warbler, common and familiar in gardens near streams and rivers, is listed because it has suffered rapid declines recently in other Western states, Cullinan said.

Audubon's report doesn't come with major proposals for changes in environmental law.

But the members said they hope it might be used by governments and large land owners as a guide to change the way the land is used, or abused.

"What ties this all together is these are manmade problems, and if people caused them, people can solve them," said Flicker, Audubon's national president.

Even locally, he said, people can do things as simple as using less pesticide, keeping cats indoors and supporting parks and open spaces.

"All of this adds up to solving the big problem that sometimes seems too big to deal with."

Ian Ith: 206-464-2109 or iith@seattletimes.com