Dave.....I didn't intend to generalize and am well aware of the normal use for the long rods..heck , you are the one who taught me that. I am not an expert in the rivers as I have lived a sheltered life fishing on the Quinault and the Queets mostly.

I should have said....My neighbor fished the Fraser this summer for Sockeye and he thought that the general rule was the use of 12' rods with 12' leaders....No floats....In Alaska on the Kenai flys are used but the reality is that most folks up there either floss or snag them. I have stood in that river next to lots of folks doing just that. I think you are right about the food fish angle. I tied my own flies up there and thought I was catching them the hard way in the mouth but I'm sure I would have fit the PP definition of flossing. big deal.

Dave you brought up the issue of why the Snohomish Coho don't bite and I agree but remember that yesterday was my first outing for Coho on that river ever. I have alot to learn and I think Parker has it nailed pretty good. We tried wrapped Kwikfish yesterday with no hits. Last year I fish for Chum and did real well with wrapped Kwikfish but did notice a lack of sport in it.

A true purist would never set the hook, infact he probally would never even use a hook. He would also eat nothing but safeway fish. A certain amount of logic must be used,
tempered with sportsmanship, which is a personal percieved value.

Sockeye DO NOT BITE, so if flossing is just glorified snagging then we might as well just ditch the fishery (joking). Seriously though, the Kenai river red fishery used to be treble hooks and lujons. Snagging was blatant and tickets were in abundance. Over the years we developed more humane methods to catch these bruisers. Yes it could be construed as snagging, but 9 times out of ten I hook the fish in the mouth, enjoy an unbelievable battle on a 9-weight, and go home with a smile. Not a big deal, the rest of the year I fish for steelhead by conventional means. But for 2 weeks out of the year, I let down my guard and floss, big deal. It's fun, the mortality rate is virtually nil and I get a few beauts to pickle.
Now maybe if we embraced the act of flossing here, people learned the right way and the wrong way, and we went to single barbless hooks, it wouldn't be such a big deal. Most people would strike out anyway so mortality wouldn't be a huge issue, but at least it would get treble hooks out of the hands of the blatant snaggers.

Ak,

You bet, but I would never FORCE my opinion on you........ITS MY CHOICE. You won't see me out during rifle sesons preaching, as I can care less YOUR METHOD......PERSONAL DECISION!!

Chumster

This thread always gets me back on the board... Its been a while. Good stuff.

Thanks for the post Gpa. Wayne Kurse posted a similar story about fishing the lower Snohomish in the Sunday Harold. My limited experience on the Snohomish, mostly flyfishing, has been an exercise in frustration. But I think, as Parker aluded to, its all about timing to get the biters.

Hmmmm, the only thing I have to add to this interesting thread is perhaps my opinion as to whether you're actually flossing most fish with the Dickies. In my opinion (and experience), many fish hit Dick Nites, as oppose to the other way around. It's much easier to floss a fish using a bouyant corky, or neutrally bouyant yarn with a smallish hook, then a Dick Nite.

As to the jerking thing--this is just not necessary when flossing and people that do it probably snag more fish (fish hooked places other than the mouth). A "bite" from an actual biter or a floss job feels pretty much the same, if you use a reasonable leader, say 5 or 6 feet. You also fish the same, jerking only when you feel the head shake. If you're using a super long leader, that's when you feel the line running through the fishes mouth for much of the drift so tend to jerk a lot more and reel like crazy to catch up.

Whether you agree with flossing or not, I guess my point is, its just not necessary to use a ten foot leader, jerking like crazy, and harrassing the hell out of the fish. Its also not right to automatically label people who are using Dickies or corkies as flossers (unless they're using a leader longer than their rod!).

Ditto what Todd said.

Like it or not...

If the fish doesn't take the bait voluntarily, it's an illegal take in the state.

To me, snagging is akin to netting. It is not a sport - It is just a method for extracting fish from the water.

Aside from what Todd said, what about the anglers code of "fair chase"? I am of the opinion that some are so enamored by numbers that they forget that "true" angling is the game of fair chase and will do anything to prove their worthness to be on the next cover of fishing and hunting news.

Parker is correct. The last high water about 3 or 4 weeks ago brought on some aggressive fish. We limited that sat, sun, and mon in about 3 hrs each day with wiggle warts on the lower sky. Since then its been pretty tough to get them to hit anything. I fished last fri, sat, and sunday without any success. Other than a few on eggs over the last couple of weeks its been tough fishing. I saw a couple of guys on the lower sky fishing a hole from the bank with an ounce of lead and two foot leader with a corkie. They had no problem getting their fish. Similar technique as on the snohomish except they were not hooking the fish anywhere close to the mouth.

Parker is also correct that they will hit K14/K15 quickies near the end of the run when the chum are in if there is enough water. I caught quite a few last year at the end of october/early november.

Slab..Well I'll be dogged...I think we need a video camera in the river to see what is really going on.

Don't you think what happens when fishing with the Dick Nite with the long leader and basically drifting with it like bouncing eggs is that the line swings in a big arch and inadvertantly lands in the mouth of a fish? When the fish feels the hook it freaks out and jumps sometimes getting hooked better and sometimes getting off. Don't you think that the reason for using the tiny Dick Nites is that it is super light and will be easier to land in the mouth than other lures? I honestly don't know but I have to wonder after some close observations I made yesterday. I was pitching spinners in place of the Dick Nites with no luck at all.

What kind of kills me is that people will swear til Hell freezes over that fishing this way their fish bite while others are flossing. Witness the last post stating the ideal leader length being 5 or 6 feet....That is only 1' shorter than the 7' I mentioned earlier. The guys I saw slaying all the fish had a 6" dropper where I was using 24-36"...Using a corkie and drifiting with a long leader is ideal, especially with some yarn which helps it stick to the teeth as it passed by. The corkie will float off the bottom just right. I suspect the Dick Nite is so light that it takes a while to descend...The bites I got were close to the very beginning of the drift say from a cast at 2oclock to a swing of 10 oclock before the lure hits the current and is swept downstream.

Again. I am no expert so flaming me won't solve anything. I really want to know what is going on.

If sockeye dont bite, what is happening in Lake Washington? Those seem to bite just fine. I've also fished sockeye in clear water in Alaska, and watched a sockeye turn towards my fly, flare it's gills, and inhale the fly. I even caught one on a deer hair mouse. On the surface. With witnesses. Who were sober (at the time, anyway). So I'm pretty sure that a good fisherman can get sockeye to bite, at times, anyway.

Now, if fish don't want to bite, and you want to floss them, that's between you and the authorities. But don't try to tell me you're fishing. Fishing is inducing a fish to bite, not finding a way to impale them on a hook. Flossing is harvesting. It's not sportsmanlike, and it's usually illegal.

Now, on the dick nite thing, I catch lots of fish trolling and retrieving the dick nite upstream. That is clearly a strike, so the silvers definitely will hit them. I don't know what the folks are doing in general on the snohomish, however.

I just don't get it.......Worry about a soon to be dead salmon???? I fish the green quite frequently, and by the end of the season to see soooooo many dead dying fish going to waste makes me puke!!! After the hatchery gets their quota I see nothing wrong with the harvest of excessive fish. Ya, I have heard the aurguement that those rotting fish feed the next generation........great, but arguements of cruelity, and unsportsmen like conduct I think are words only a P.E.T.A member would use on this board.......geeez!

You guys in my opinion get to caught up in definitions, or your spin on what is LEGAL that you forget salmon is A FOOD FISH. I don't advocate spark plugs and trebles, but you guys are being flat rediculious with this flossing arguement.

The only one that benefits from snagging tickets is the department of game, and lawyers...............Todd are you a lawyer?? :p My sister is a prosecuter, yes for this state, and finds game violations to be a hassle.........especially fishing....snagging.


Chumster

When fishing a dick nite, the biters are caught when you can anchor above the fish and feed it to them. Almost like back bouncin, especially the clearer the water gets. A lot of times its straight out the back of the boat. But, when you get 10 boats fishing a little pocket you cant hog the hole to yourself. You have to get off to the side of the fish. Which allows more anglers to join in. And yeah if you got a lot of fish kegged up they get lined... It happens.

And as far as flossin if you dont your teeth fall out!

I guess Dave and Scott better take me out so I can see the right way to fish these stubborn Coho.

OK, my 2 cents. I have fished the Snoho for coho for over 20 years, back when it wasn't "combat fishing". Coho will hit a lure when presented properly AND when they are in the mood. Most of the time they aren't. When they are, it's incredible and they will chase your spoon/spinner/plug right to the boat. You can see it, it's a rush, and it's not flossing.

Flossing for coho on the Snoho is like kissing your sister. Get a life. I don't and never will. Hell, if I foul-hook anything it goes back, period. And I sleep better at night.

I'll be out there tomorrow, "fishing" for coho. It's great when they bite, rather than "I think I feel a fish, so I'll jerk my line".

Todd, Slabquest, and those of you of the same mold.....you can fish with me anytime.

Hear, hear.

Maybe I have to much respect and to much tolerance to launch an offensive hear but I do have to put up a little more D than the Seahawks had at the end of the game on Sunday.
I was raised by an Officer in the Airforce. If I felt I was 1/2 the man well maybe 3/4 the man he is I would be fairly proud of myself. He does have one big weekness, FISH. He loves fishin, catchin, cleanin, smokin, fryin, BBQin, cannin, vacume packin and sharing fish. He has no problem suporting inhancement programs, purist flyfishing clubs or anthing else thats good for the sport. He is one of the most thrifty Men I know and because he is it allows a few of his friends the ability to spend a few weeks a year up in AK with him. He has 3 boats, tons of gear a truck and a camper he leaves in AK year around but only spends 6 to 7 weeks a year in them. Did I mention it is his big weekness. He loves big Kings, Halibut, Razor clams and you guest it Sockeye (flosseye). He turned down fullbird Col. an assingment to the pentagone and maybe more for a WA and OR commercial troolling license and a new boat.(gave it up after about 6 years because the seasons were to short) Gettin the picture yet, the guy loves to fish. When I started my own business he harped and looked down his nose at me for not being better with my money and threatend he wouldn't be the one to bail me out. When I called and told him that I was tight on money and was selling my boat there was a check in the mail the same day.( After all he doesn't like towing boats across the state and yes technicly he now owns my boat)
We don't get to spend enough time with each other but we talk alot about it. We will be spending 10 days together on Kodiak next Aug. I fish alot and like all fishermen I catch more than most. I have fished the Snoho system maybe a dozen times for silvers and still havn't landed one. Lost one on a fatfish and one on a vibrex. Frankly the place frustrates the hell out of me and I am still out on the salt until there are very few fresh fish in the river.
If I was to to take my Dad out on Snohomish I would imagine we would go through evrything he could think of trying to get into the Silvers jumping all around us. Heck I might just do it to mess with his mind. Point is after trying everything he had at his disposal ( witch would put most sporting goods stores to shame) I wouldn't put it past him for one second to start throwing corkies and yarn on a long leeder.(if he was going to floss he wouldn't screw around with the little hooks on a wee dick night) I have all the confidence in the world he would figure out away to get a hook into a silvers mouth. If Ididn't know better places to fish where the fish are more likely to bite I would love to spend a day flossin the Snohomish with my Pa. While I was fishing with him I would probably keep a leagly hooked fish because for some reason it is that important to him. He is a product of the midwest and the 1930s. If I was with my other dick nite fishin buddies and a fish tried to rip the rod out of my hand while I was reeling in after a drift I would release it just so I could accuse them of being snaggers if they got one. After all there my Budies and they expect that kind of crap from me. Ya just don't know how the guy in the next boat is put together or why they do the things they do. If they're not a threat to anyone and I am not 100% sure they are breaking a law It is not my problem.
Queetsqueef I would be honnered to spend time fishing with you. I think we think alike.
Chumster I hunt Deer with a rifle because my closest friends have some increadable late Whitetail land with a big hunting cabin that has no electricity and is heated buy a wood burning stove. Its my favorit place to be with a foot of snow on the ground. Archery only for Elk. If you would like to hook up to fish or hunt let me know.

Grandpa
I may not always agree 100% with you but anyone that has done as much for what they care about let alone fishing gets a great deal of respect from me and I thank you. Look forward to meeting you tonight. Art


I did love taking my 4 year old Daughter and 7 year old son over to the Sky to floss and release some pinks with my flyrod last year. My 4 year old threw herself onto a passing buck humpy and succesfully restled it to shore.
It took me 5 minutes to convince her to let it go. It's in the blood.

Dave ,thanks for trying to help clarify the 12 ft rods and such.In B.C. we opened the Fraser to flossing sockeye 12 years ago as a way to target the super large runs of sockeye we were getting(due to the very muddy water ,1ft visibility),what a mistake.Since that day our fishing ethic has had the bottom drop out,the new generation knows no other way to catch fish than with loooooong leaders and heavy weights ,fished with or without a float.In fact ,if you go to the Vedder you will f ind 75% of the fisherman attempting to floss salmon.The whole reason for this progression is the false belief that catching salmon with this technique is the most productive method.I constantly out fish the snaggers using super shortfloating techniques using roe ,jigs and blades,I can hear them muttering about how short my leader is and "it's in the mouth",as if this were some kind of voo doo magic.Fresh fish are very often the best biters and watching these guys snag then bonk black springs and red tomat-hoes,is quite the sight.It should be no surprise to anyone who fished here this summer that our sockeye runs were virtually wiped out this year by the commercial boats ,massive illegal native nets and the huge number of snaggers.Many of us anglers who were sadly involved in this snag fest back in 92 are embarassed and saddened by the loss of ethics and degeneration of the fishing .In Canada we always looked down upon any form of fishing that facilitated flossing of fish,probably why we loved shortfloating,as almost no fish were lined when performed correctly ,not to mention damn effective.A strong push will be made to have the snag fest put to rest in the next couple of years and hopefully we can get back to fishing for sport .Getting skunked is part of the fishing experience ,it builds character ,develops patience and prepares one for the rigors of steelheading .The ability to accept that coho will sometimes not bite (or any other fish for that matter),and head in fishless is a true test of ones fishing ethic .Someone here said that flossing required skill,I hear this all the time from folks who have a hard time CATCHING not HOOKING fish,fact is that flossing fish is often no more than knowing how to cast and knowing how to follow the crowds.Real fisherman ,accept there skunkings and just work harder at finding a way to get them suckers to bite.Sorry if I offended some snaggy types ,but the truth hurts .
Bent Rods

I did hear someone say they caught a big fish on eggs. I wondered to myself what would have happened had we used a float and eggs and drifted it through the hole. Maybe the eggs were back bounced? With a corkie and yarn?