I would like everyone to know that the Tribes are still commercial crabbing. I talked to another fisherman on Wed. said that he was fishing out near Point-No-Fish and said that there were many pots in the water. He got so mad after seeing the pots that he decided that he should have some of the take concidering that the sportsman took in the shorts again so he pulled one pot and got his limit. It gets pretty bad that we have to resort to pulling tribal pots to get some crab. The sportsman got only got 17 percent of the crab allocation this year before the WDFW closed the season. I tired of the tribes running the show. The sportsman should at least get to crab for the rest of the year. Maybe if we continue to ask the WDFW about crabbing they might let us have a crabbing opener but don't hold your breath.

Don't worry I won't be pulling any of those heavy assed pots.....but does anyone know the penalty for pulling a tribal pot? I'm sure it's not small.

I see that there is still crabbing going on on Whidbey we drive off the base by the ocean and there is always crab pots out with 2 or 3 boats watching over them. I believe they may be tribal but not positive. Even if it isnt tribal arent the commercials crabbers supposed to be ceased all so. Please let me know because I saw that last week and it totally pissed me off about that

It's one thing to talk about one's fantasy of breaking the law to protest one's beliefs but actually breaking multiple laws (operating someone else's pots, theft of someone else's catch, illegal retention of crab, to name but a few) but to actually act on one's fantasy enters into the realm of obsession.

No matter what we believe, we must act lawfully. If everyone did what your friend did we would have a war out there. Despite what your friend believes, he is not "entitlled" to a limit of crab.

We may not think that the speed limit should be 50 mph on that back road and we may not like to be restricted to our side of the double yellow lines but to do act otherwise and break the law puts us all in danger.

Your friend and his actions are part of the problem, not the solution.

It's one thing to talk about one's fantasy of breaking the law to protest one's beliefs but actually breaking multiple laws (operating someone else's pots, theft of someone else's catch, illegal retention of crab, to name but a few) but to actually act on one's fantasy enters into the realm of obsession.

No matter what we believe, we must act lawfully. If everyone did what your friend did we would have a war out there. Despite what your friend believes, he is not "entitlled" to a limit of crab.

We may not think that the speed limit should be 50 mph on that back road and we may not like to be restricted to our side of the double yellow lines but to do act otherwise and break the law puts us all in danger.

Your friend and his actions are part of the problem, not the solution.

Actually, didn't he have his limit before he pulled the pots considering that crabbing for us is closed? He's probably the same ***hole that kept pulling my pots all summer. If he's not the same he's just as big of .....Well you know what I'm saying.

Aunty - Ah, inequity... extreme inequity. That justifies unlawful actions by some, does it?

OK then, who gets to decide what is and is not equitable? You? Me? Do I agree with your definition? Probably not in all cases. Do you agree with mine? Same answer.

You see the reasoning unfolding here I hope. The difference between having a legal system that works and one that does not, sets us apart from most of the rest of the world. We do not allow "individuals" to decide for us what right and wrong is. We have a democratic form of government that we are supposed to use for establishing laws. As upstanding citizens, we are trusted and we trust each other, that we are all following them. Individuals "doing their own thing" is not a useful system of government nor is it at all good for the resource. I hope you would agree with me on that.

pacnw,

No doubt you would have poo-pooed the Boston tea party....

Or told Rosa Parks to obey the law and sit in the back of the bus.

There comes a time where civil disobediance is appropriate. I'm not saying that we are there yet with this crab fiasco, but we are getting there...

I don't have the guts to pull tribal pots, but I do not have a problem with those that do.

Don't need a tea party. That was before there was a democratic form of government. We have a system of government that works... all people need to do is use it.

If people do not think our system of government works then they need to ask themselves, "why did I vote?"

Pacnw:

Clearly the system does not work. Non-tribal crabbers are getting screwed royally. That’s their perception, at least and when that many people are that unhappy something needs to be done. For that matter I believe many tribal crabbers are unhappy, if not with their haul then with the animosity the see.

I saw a tribal crabber purposely block the ramp at Quilcene for several hours. He launched his boat then took off to set his pots with the truck and trailer parked in the middle of a narrow ramp. Now I can’t say why he did what he did, but I suspect it may have had something to do with all the friction generated by what many of us see as a serious inequity.

Tribal pots are out thick in the Everett/Mukilteo area and have been most of the year. WDFW says we got our limit in the short season we had this summer. Then how do the Tribes fish for ten months and not get their's several times over. There are a as many or more tribal pots out there than what is ever out there for recreational fishers. I believe they also have all you can eat crab nights at the casino's quite often. I'm not saying that breaking the law is right but what the tribes are doing is outrageous. My 2 cents worth.

PNW...I wish I knew where your "apologist for the tribes" role comes from. I don't condone breaking the law but when it comes to the tribes the only law they know is their own. Tribal crabbers have been out for about a month and will be out in force for months. They decide when and where and how to exploit the resource that the courts so foolishly gave them claim to. They go into areas they are not supposed to be in and take all the crab....undesized, females , soft shells....then they relocate them to their designated areas to propogate for their use while scouring the beds where the recreational crabbers go. They fish out areas before we even get to start and YES they do rob the pots of sports crabbers all the time. They are above the law and need to be reigned in some day soon. The $5 million in gambling profits they spent to defeat I-892 was an example of their greed. The money they make off the casinoes was specifically to go for things to benefit the community not to pay lobbyist and pay politicians to maintain monopolies and dominate our fisheries..There is a war coming and the tribes are the only ones who can stop it by getting along and by understanding that no one ever intended for them to be above the law to thumb their noses at the rest of us. I don't care how badly screwed over they think they were 200 years ago. They need to accept the scorn they are getting and the consequences of their greed in the future if they make no attempt to get along. I'd say cut off all their crab floats if it wasn't against the law. Tell Safeway to stop buying their crab. Don;t pull their pots and risk arrest. Protest and get involved with the groups that will dare to take them on with both barrels. The tribes deserve all the scorn they breed.

fwiw
we have a representative republic
not a democratic government
we get to vote somebody to represent us
unfortunatly they never seem to do what they say they will while campainging
every so often you need another "Tea Party" to get their attention

PNW, It would seem that once again you are at odd with the majority here on this forum. But what I would really like to know, if one group can get treated better, have opprotunity than others and not PAY TAXES that the other groups do, what would YOU call that?
The only way that I can see that you feel the way that you do, is if you are a triblal member, or work for a tribe. I know, I have asked this before, yet you still persist with this let the tribes do what ever they want, and I guess we get to eat sh!t with what ever is left over. Now if you don't see that this is completely un-exceptable then you obviously have somthing to gain from this current arrangement........SO fess up and let us know which one it is!.................Fishy.

Grandpa,

That rant was a dandy, even for you!

Go git 'em!

WOW.

That's all I can think to say. You all have me speechless.

The part about this country not being a democracy REALLY has me spinning. Use the system, don't abuse it.

I thought this was about stealing crab and lawlessness, not Indian vs. non-Indian. GEEZ. I didn't bring it up, you did. You folks need to look inside yourselves and do a thorough review... IMHO

AuntyM, Grandpa......

So instead of the rants...Whats the best way to combat the unfairness? This has been discussed numerous times on the board. Legal action? Protests? Lobbying? If there was just some clear leadership I'd be happy to contribute.

OK goinfishin....you are right on target...I recently attended what we called the "Crab Summit" . I really don't want to get into specifics right now but let's say we discussed the whole range of issues concerning the poor allocation or our shellfish between sport and commercial. One thing I learned right off is that the tribes tell WDFW what they are going to do without notice.

Here's one example: In area 8-2 in Everett sport crabbing is really popular. Problem is that the tribes up that way find it real popular too. WDFW has tried to manage the resource in the past by annoouncing openings for sports crabbing once the molt is declared over and soft shell crab are few and far between. Then they tried to set exact seasons so we could plan better. Well on opening day of sport crabbing in 8-2 in 2004 the keeper crab were all but gone. We discussed a proposal to delay the opener to late June for 2005. What we were told by WDFW biologists was that the tribes would simply fish the whole month of June and clean out the area like they did in 2004. I was there on opening day and did not take one keeper crab. In the past I could limit on the first pull.

Then the first thing on the "what can we do" agenda was the statement that we could not approach anyone in the legislature or WDFW if we included the tribes in any way in our discussions. No one wants to touch the indian issues with a 20' pole. WHY? Well as much as I hate to admit it...there isn't a damn thing we can do locally about it. So some decide to try to get along and talk reason and fairness....Then, like Aunty points out, the tribes let us give up something more only to have them step in and add what we sacrifice to their take. That is why I insist they are beset with greed.

With all that said I would say that the only thing the masses can do to make a difference is to get involved. HOW?

1.) Join a PSA chapter or another major fishing club.

2.) Join the RFA (Recreational Fishing Alliance)

3.) Donate as much money as you can to the Washington Sportsfishing PAC.

The ultimate fight for sportsmen's rights will be in our legislature and in the congress of the United States. It won't be from WDFW meetings or certainly not from the WDFW commission as it sits now. Not from sitting on the WDFW assorted advisory committees. Not from giving up more opportunity to show good faith. The tribes are spending millions of dollars from the gambling monopoly Gary Locke gave them to influence the legislature. to change the laws to suit them and to influence fisheries policies in their favor. The non-tribal commercials already outspend and outwork us sportsmen and now we have the tribes against us too. Sure we will try to work with both of those user groups but the legislature and the new governor are the two targets I would be aiming at. We need a show of force..For heaven's sake we make up the majority. What is sad though is that if there was an important meeting about crabbing most of the 240 commercial crabbers would be there while we have in the past been unable to get a handful of sports fishers to show up.

That is changing rapidly. RFA Washington is formed and so is the Sportsfishing PAC. We now have a lobbyist in Olympia. Oh you didn't realize that we have never had one? Well the commercials sure do and so do the tribes. Now is your chance to help us compete. Walk the talk.

Why pull the pots up? It's much easier to just cut the buoys off and let the leaded rope sink. NOT that I have done that of course.

PM:

Do you think the tribal pots are configured to stop killing crabs after they are lost, or would your solution cause the pots to keep on killing?

I do not condone such acts, but sure can see why upset recreational crabbers would be thinking about it.


Lets do what we can legally - Join RFA, get a voice in Olympia. The tribes damn sure do.

Great Idea Aunty.

If someone will volunteer to get me the facts on who is taking their money, I will do my dammedest to get that info published. I do not care a bit if they are R or D. I will publish what I learn.

You see, this is what I am talking about. People are operating on speculation and the fear that sportsfishers are not getting a fair shake. Notice that I said speculation here... the truth as to whether the sportfishers are getting a fair shake lies with the beholder does it not?

Of course tribal pots are required to have rot cord, just like sport fishing pots? Of course tribal pots are required to have escape rings. Do all sport crabbers and non-Indian crabbers and Indian crabbers follow the requirements? Of course not. We've already seen evidence of infractions throughout the fishery and on this site.

Some think that I am making a right or wrong argument here. I am not. Nor do I think I am 100% in the right in my beliefs. But what makes the more pointed views on this site right instead of wrong? Nothing. Speculation, personal opinion and the fear that someone is getting something that others are not. This leads to a frenzy of misguided deads (ala theft from a commercial pot, regardless of ownership).

Lets take for example this campaign strategy of the sport crabbers being allocated only 17% of the harvestable resource. You may have heard of the popular book, "How to Lie with Statistics" (or something like that). This is a perfect example. The sport fishery is NOT allocated 17% of the resource. It does not work this way so why describe it this way? Sure, it exagerates the sport fishers claims but it is a diversion. The allocation of the harvestable crab is 50/50. That is the official division. The Tribes make their decisions about their 50% and the State makes their decisions about their 50%. Within the State's 50% there is no "allocation" as I understand it, but some regional catch guidelelines depending upon the presence of non-Inidan commericla fisheries, etc. If you are upset about the way WDFW divides the State's 50% among the non-Inidna user groups then your argument is with WDFW, not the commercial fishery, not the Tribes, not anyone else. Those decisions are made within the WDFW policy group (many know who they are) and they have at least two advisory groups they use as sounding boards. How well does it work? Many of you have first hand knowledge... I can only speculate.

Grandpa does a great job of picking an example that highlights his personal views with the sub-region 8-2 crab fishery. However, if he wanted to make his point in an OBJECTIVE manner, he might have done a little investigating and also discovered what areas are open to us sporties first... with the commercials coming in afterwards. Does not exist, you say? It does exist, its just that nobody thought that example would suit their argument so it is not spoken of here.

I am the first to admit that I do not fall in with the crowd on this site. I do not share the popular opinion. But it seems that many in this crowd simply do not want to hear the other side. And we all know there is always another side, right? Why assume that I think I am right and you are wrong? I am not saying that at all. I am simply offering another view, from a different perspective.

Don't forget that the measly 17% +- that sportsmen get applies only to Washington's INLAND waters. Most of the crab harvested in this State come from the ocean, where recreational crabbers get 0%.

I have always wondered how, when the crab "pie" was originally divided up, that the legislators decided that most of the crab "belong" to commercial crabbers, and not the citizens of the State. Why don't commercials get to take most of the deer or most of the ducks, etc?

(actually I know how it happened, but that's another story)

SQ: I wish you had not asked that question. You may get some tribal members thinking. Maybe next year we will see adds for Muckleshoot naturally fresh blacktail deer. "We don't shoot them until you order them , roadkill at reduced prices. Get them now at Larry markets"

lets not give them any ideas, they would probably start calculating their profits now....

PNW..there you go again...The tribes have their own government and they don't pay taxes to support ours . They certainly use the benefits of our gvernment but hide behind theirs to shield them from scrutiny and accountability. I don't like antecdoatal evidence like my "examples" you chose to try to pick apart. The facts show that the tribes do most of their crabbing starting in October or so until the sports season starts in mid summer and then they keep right on crabbing in the summer. My example in 8-2 was only to show that the tribes have figured out how to clean out a popular recreational area prior to the sports pots being "allowed" to go in. WDFW will freely admit that they cannot and do not control when the tribes crab. Yoou try to paint a picture of the tribes following the same rules fair and square that all the rest of the population follows but that is a transparent falsehood and you should know that.

We thought that we had a go along solution awhile ago with sports only zones. Of course, it did not take long for the tribes to thumb their noses at those if they felt there were crab they were not getting. The tribes are not getting the easy pickins they have enjoyed since the mid 80s so they are making their own rules as they go along like the practice of going into a recreational zone and taking all the crabs to be kept alive and reseeding into the tribal areas. There are eye witnesses to this.

Recreational crabbing has exploded as our population grows and tribal effort has exploded as well as if to scramble to compete and get as many crab as humanly possible before the competition is allowed in. They do it with gambling and they do it with fisheries. They are going to attempt to do it in the legislature with all their gambling money. We must find a way to stop them in my opnion or the natural resources of this state will not belong to all the citizens but will be hijacked by the "super citizens" called the tribes. It's time to wake up and get busy. The general public has no idea how lopsided things are.

Actually the reality is the Tribes have already won - Sportspeople were not able to fight effectively.

NOTE - we just had an election, and the Tribes easily won their right to have a monopoly on gambling. The voters like the Tribes and will continue to vote for them. I don't see it likely that any of the allocation of resource issues will be resolved in favor of sportsman.

However, we should be thankful the Tribes have not gone to court to get their land back. At some point they will, and Puget Sound will probably have to pay back rent for property you think you have clear title to and think you "own".

As far as salmon and crab, the days of sportspeople getting a share are gone...forever I fear. The crabbing exploded mainly because the state took away - at the tribes request- most of the salmon fishing seasons and so what's left? Crab and shirmp. And both are quickly becoming unavailable to sportspeople because of vastly reduced seasons.

I don't agree with what has happened but finally have accepted the fact that I can do nothing about it other than try to vote out the incumbants.

PNW, your view is so transparent that we should all be insulted by your obvious bias towards the tribes. It is propogandists such as yourself that do the rest of the sports fishing and recreational community an injustice.
Go somewhere else and try to sell your snake oil everything is equal, stance. It is the people that have taken the lies and scare tactics that got the gambling initiative defeated. We can NEVER let that happen again, next time the sportsmen and women of washington will be ready.
You are certainly out of touch here!