I have heard a great deal about how the closure of our recreational crab season was based on, what seem to be unscientific guesses. My question is how accurate are the tribal harvest numbers?

Can someone explain exactly how tribal harvest numbers are recorded, audited and totaled? Do the tribal harvest numbers reported include ceremonial catches as well? Is the system producing accurate data?

I have a friend who was a non-tribal commercial crabber for many years. He tells me he has watched tribal boats off load what he believes to be tons of crabs, but the buyer’s records show only hundreds of pounds. Just anecdotal evidence, but I hear similar stories regularly. What’s the truth?

It has been my experience that Indian and non-Indian commercial crab catches are pretty well documented when they are sold to a seafood dealer/wholesaler. These fishers use the same buyers. The "fish receiving ticket," requiring I.D. and signature of the fisherman, is common throughout. This is how the vast majority of the Indian and non-Indian commercial catch gets recorded. Commercial crab fishermen recording their catch on a ticket can take home crab for whatever reason.... personal use, subsistence, ceremonial... but these must show up on the fish receiving ticket.

Now, do all commercial crab get recorded on tickets? They are required to... tribal and non-tribal alike. But there is a relatively small portion that does not. That is where each individual fishery management agency comes in. Each has its own system for accounting for unrecorded catch. As with other management functions, this catch recording success varies from agency to agency. For instance, I know of some Tribes that do an excellent job of recording catch that is not on tickets and some who's system leaves something to be desired.

All in all, the commercial catch (tribal and non-tribal) is well documented.

The short answer Dave is no. In Hood Canal especially the tribes declared an "emergency opening" a week or so before the sports opening. They were bringing the crabs into the boat launch for all to see. The reports said that they were bringing in about 40,000 lbs per day. The quota for the whole canal was only 240,000 lbs....Let's see...40 times 6 days = 240,000lbs. And that was after they had already been harvesting for a few months. The non-indian commercial crabbers sell their crab to a buyer who in turns has 24 hours to report the catch by fax or phone. The tribes on the other hand sell to tribal buyer who , I'm told, report atleast 1-2 months later. There has been widespread under reporting and alot of people inside and outside WDFW are well aware of it. They all say the same thing though..we have to accept what they tell us even though we know it is bull**** because they are immune from our jurisdiction. Tribal enforcement is a joke and our legislators are starting to take lots of money from the tribes so there you go. Bad reporting and bad stewardship of the resource. No wonder there are not so many crabs in Puget Sound at this time.

The tribes went back in the water on Oct 1. They made a pact with the non indian commercials to only use 50 pots per boat instead of the approved 100. That worked for a week or so until the tribes decided they weren't getting enough crab so they went back to the 100 pots per boat.....Not sure if they even informed their commercial partners about it .

So my question to you Dave is this: How can this state manage the crab if they do not have an accurate idea of how many crab there are and who is harvesting what?

You see, this is what I am talking about... there is a WHOLE bunch of mis-information being spread around here. And it isn't helping anyone.

In Hood Canal, there was no "ememrgency opening" by the tribes... that is when they normally fish. Yes, the tribal fishers bring crab in to the boat launches for all to see... where else are they going to bring them in?

I can imagine that there were days when 40,000 pounds were caught. And your math is about right... that's how many days the tribal commercial crab fishery has been open in Hood Canal... six. If you don't believe me ask the WDFW crab managers.

The tribal crabbers and non- tribal crabbers all sell to the same buyers pretty much. All the fish tickets go to the same database, tribal or non-tribal. Again, ask the WDFW folks if you don't believe me. What is different about Hood Canal is there is no non-tribal commercial fishery, just tribal. That is a policy choice of WDFW to reserve all of the State's share of Hood Canal crab for the recreational fishers.

You are just plain wrong about the tribes having commercial fisheries for a couple of months in Hood Canal prior to the June opener. And you are plain wrong about the number of pots each crabber is allowed. Try 25 to 35 per vessel. But do not take my word for it... really, I wouldn't want you to believe a "tribal apologist" (added for humor)... ask your WDFW crab manager.

Tribal enforcement is no more a joke than any other agency's enforcement... some are better and some are worse than others.

Grandpa, the "blanket coverage" you use in your descriptions and speculations make you less credible. Not all tribal fishers are outlaws and not all tribes are irresponsible yet you cover them all in your statements. Its like an out-of-towner going down to the Quilcene River, watching that freak show and then coming away with the following beliefs....
1.) all recreational fishers in Washington are snaggers and 2.) the State of Washington does not know how to manage its fisheries or its resources properly. Unless your experiences have provided you with personal insight regarding each of the 21 treaty tribes in Western Washington, how woulld you know enough to make these blanket statements?

Just an observation, of course.

I am in the fisheries management business. Over the past 29 years I have worked for several tribes as well as the State of Washington, the University of Washington and the NMFS. In other words, I have been on different sides of the coin. No management entity is above reproach. All have their pluses and minuses regarding the caliber of their work and their level of resource concern. You have an obvious deep-seated disregard for tribes and tribal fishers. But don't paint all trtibes and all tribal fishers with that same broad brush.

Peace out.

Pnw- I certainly disagree with most of your statements. There has been incidents time and againg where tribal members have fished out of season, poached big game out of season etc etc etc. On most of these incidents they don't even get prosecuted by the tribal enforcement folks. Grandpa may rant to a degree, but what he's talking about happens all the time. I've seen it with my own eyes. I know this much as a sportfisherman, if I did what the tribes do, I would be in jail. They don't hold themselves accountable.
What about all the crab at the casino "all you can eat crab fests". Are those being recorded. What about all the tribal pots in the recreational only zone between Everett and Mukilteo. Tribes do what they want when they want and thumb their nose at the rest of us.

OK this is getting ridiculous...PNW has absolutely no credibility. I am quite sure if someone revealed his identity it would be obvious why he apologizes and covers for the tribes. There are folks that know alot more than I do about crabbing and I will get some more facts for you but for now I can assure everyone that tribal crab catches are absolutely not sold to the same buyers and are absolutely not reported consistently as are the non indian commercial catches. Especially in Hood Canal the tribal abuses are legendary to those on the ground in that area both inside and outside WDFW

The misinformation is coming from you PNW and not from me. Your facts are just like the ones you tried to float on the I-892 initiative when you stepped up to defend the tribes once again on that issue to maintain their monopoly. They won that one with $5 million dollars worth of lies and scare tactics. They have guys like you to run around and spread loads of crap to all who would listen. I am not buying any of it. The tribes are very sensitive about their image these days and I can't blame them. There are a bunch of great folks in our various tribes but there are also some greedy members who run the casinos and housing programs. crab pots and gill nets. The tribes are a big huge chunk of the problem with our fisheries. Just because you say something is so in defense of the tribes does not mean much in my book.

Regarding Hood Canal, I thought I read that Indian netters were no longer going to dump gutted fish back into the water. But then I read reports (from this site) that it is still going on over there. If this is so, did they not know about the advisory or are they just saying screw it???

The gill netters were heading to Kingston as we were heading into the marina tonight. They could catch 1000 Chums and strip the eggs and toss the carcasses overboard ...keep a few males to sell for .15 per # so the buyer will have a fish ticket to turn in some time in July of next year. Sell the eggs for $2.00 + per pound and nobody's the wiser....

From what I have seen with my own two eyes I am 100% with Grandpa on this one.
Ramprat

In Hood Canal the deceit of the Skoks is legendary according to those in the know inside the WDFW and among knowledgeable folks in different organizations. No one wants to try to take on the tribes and no one has found a way to hold them accountable as they trot out their sovereign nation protective shield whenever the need arises. Their "season" for crabbing is a far cry from the 6 days I mentioned earlier. The 6 days I mentioned were the days directly preceeding the sports pots going in. My point was that they took what was supposed to be the canalwide quota in those 6 days as if the rest of the year didn't count. Like right now for example. Tribal pots line Puget Sound. 24/7. And the number of pots "allowed" is 100 per boat. That does not mean that every boat deploys 100 pots but they will if they can. Some of the buoys you see on the surface are attached to multiple pots . In fact, in area 7, the tribes for the first time ever made a deal with the non-tribal commercials to limit their mutual pot count to only 50 per boat. This was implemented at the beginning of their "season" which just got started a month or so after the sports season was closed on an emergency basis because we got our "quota". After a week or so the tribes panicked saying they were not taking enough crab so they **** canned the agreement they had made and went back to fishing with 100 pots per boat. I got an on-the-water report when the season opened from a friend who was on a ferry bound for Friday Harbor in the San Juans...he said the ferry actually had to stop because there were so many crab pots in the water it partially blocked navigation. The Coast Guard most likely told them to call the tribal enforcement folks as the US has no jurisdiction over the indian "nations" becuase they are sovereign governments. If they had made that call I bet they got no answer.

The tribes actually threatened to shut down all sports crabbing because they allege that we cannot accurately count our catch. That's right. They would go to federal court and say they were not being given their court ordered 50%. Well we can't claim accuracy yet. We do have the CRC (catch record card) but it will not be of much use until it is totally implemented in 2005. All we have is the phone survey method of counting sports catch. Most of the money collected by the additional $3.00 fee tacked on to your license for the crab CRC went to the company hired to do this fflawed phone survey.Then the CRC results will not be tallied until the end of the season. The notion that the tribes are really accurate in reporting is just plain ridiculous. They sell to tribal buyers who most often do not report in the 24 hour window allowed the non-indian commercials but most often take 2-3 months to do so and then the data is under reported by all accounts.

Think about it for a second. When we come to the ramps with our boats we are greeted by a WDFW fish checker. The commercial boats are not. Here's an example: This spring I went fishing out of Cathlamet on the Columbia River. When we came back to the dock the fish checker was checking every boat. On the dock right next to ours were all the gill netters. One guy had his pickup backed down the ramp and was loading Chinook into a tote in the back of the pick up from the boat. No one was checking his dock at all. Only sports fishermen get checked. Why isn;t a checker deployed to count the commercial catch? Now I know there is a modest effort to enforce commercial fishing but is there any effort to police crabbing? I think not. This is a big enough deal to warrant some accountability. Sports needs to be accountable as do the commercials including the "untouchable " tribes. They won't allow scrutiny because their hands are real dirty. They don't want fin clipping as mandated because that means accountability. They don't want fin clipping because they think that would allow "us" to catch some of "their" fish.

We are looking at many proposals to solve this problem. The CRC is one solution. We are thinking that fish checkers who already are deployed all season at the docks could collect data on crabs and shrimp and not just fish. There is also substantial discussion about the overall health of the crab population in Puget ?Sound. It may just be that there are far less crab out there than we think. If that is the case we will all need to sacrifice even more than we already have. The big question is whether the tribes can be forced to sacrifice? They certainly have not shown a willingness to compromise or get along yet. I would love to see a day when I can stop criticizing the tribes and sit down with them to solve our problem on an equal basis. As long as they head down the road they are on I don't see that happening for some time. I really hope I am wrong.

Grandpa, I agree with most everything you say. The only thing I would add is that I do believe the crab population is down. It's went down every since the tribes got 50% of the harvestable shellfish. The same thing that happened to salmon and steelhead after the Boldt decision. It sure seemed coincidental that the crab I was seeing diminsihed rapidly after the tribes got 50%. Up until about 5 years ago you could get good crab pretty much throughout the season which back then was the better part of the year. So obviously us recreational fisherman weren't cleaning them out. I agree that until the tribes are held accountable nothing will ever change and I'll guarantee that they don't account for what they do.

I have seen this last weekend but didn't have my camera

Dont believe a word PCNW says.

I was at a BBQ this summer with a TM in this area who told me he fishes an average of 150 pots.

I worked in La Push for over 3 years do you think all the short crabs the tribal boats bring in get counted? No I know they dont, they get dumped in the river or given away. Is anybody counting the crabs that are sold off of the tribal boats? I dont think so! Are the non tribal boats treated alot different than the tribal boats in La Push? You betcha!

Thanks.....I never have

It's not just happening here with our "crab-Grab". Check this out.....
An article in the November 5th "Indian Country Today" is a chilling preview of economic "coming attractions" for every state that is host to a federally recognized Indian tribe, particular a gambling tribe. One need only count the number of Indian tribes within a single state to understand the multiple impact upon a single state's economy.

I urge you to slowly and carefully read the following article:

ICT [2004/11/05] McSloy: After the 'new buffalo:' Tribal wealth management

http://www.indiancountry.com/content.cfm?id=1096409808

A couple of key phrases suggest the powerful impact upon a single state, and subsequently upon the national economy when a national cumulative economic impact is understood:

"So after the gold rush (IGRA), after the new buffalo have run their course and Indian nations once again control vast resources..."

"Indian nations, due to their sovereignty, ...can instead run diversified businesses free of taxes and burdensome state laws."

"Led in many cases by the same visionary leaders who made the most of the advent of Indian gaming, taking on states in compact negotiations and the courts and creating a new GNP for their nations, many tribes now compete with the largest American corporations..." (Again - free of taxes and burdensome state laws!)

With 562 federally recognized tribes completely given a congressionally protected monopoly (Class III gambling) to generate enormous and unaccountable money, "free of taxes and burdensome state laws," - this dual economy for America is already a frightening reality: one economy for taxpayers; another economy funded by taxpayers for congressionally protected tax evaders.

Ada Deer, former Menominee tribal leader, was exactly correct when she said in 1975, "We use the system to beat the system."

America cannot sustain its national military, health, education and economic obligations while simultaneously fueling a parastic second economy that is provided a congressionally protected marketplace advantage to eliminate or cripple America's taxpaying businesses.

I encourage you to do three things continuously over the next few years:

1. Educate every citizen you know.
2. Communicate frequently with every one of your elected officials.
3. Demand equality in America's marketplace.


Elaine D. Willman, Chair
Citizens Equal Rights Alliance (CERA)
P.O. 1280
Toppenish, WA 98948
Phone: 509-865-6225
Fax: 509-865-7409
Email: toppin@aol.com
Website: http://www.citizensalliance.org/
An organization seeking Constitutional and civil rights for individuals on or near Indian reservations.

Shoot you didnt have to tell me that.

Its our own darn faults people we are the ones that voted the people in in DC that did this.


but you know the thing that really sucks is that you have PCNW sitting here trying to fill us full of bull while he is laughing all the way to the bank. The truth is that all the federally recognized tribes are funded by the federal government. Nearly all the tribes governments, services and programs are 100% ran by federal tax dollars. And guess what the tribes do not pay taxes.

We are paying PCNW to lie to us that is the truth!!!

I bet that makes everyone feel warm and fuzzy..

The positive side of things is this.

Not trying to make this a polotics thing but wiht Bush getting a second term and the probability that the Supremem court is going to get a whole lot more conservitive over the next few years it seems that there is a real big opportunity to maybe get the Boldt Decision re-visited.

No conservative politician is going to see anything reasonable or comman sense about the Boldt Decision the way it is now.

Every part of our federal government is going to be controlled by conservatives by the time the next four years is over and we might even get a republican govenor.

This is our opportunity to get our fish and shelfish back. We need to take advantage of it.

This has nothing to do with racism or bigotry. This is comman sense and the way things our now are very unfair and biased agianst tax payers.

Dream on Rich. Boldt went through Reagan and Gorton, no change. The lengths you and Grandpa et al go to villify Indians, and now PNW, is pathetic. Just admit it: you hate 'em.

Rich: SB is right, at least about the chances of changing the Boldt Decision. This had nothing to do with who was in the white house, or Govenor’s office.

Slade, who was an able attorney, fought that like the devil and lost.

I do not believe there is anyway any politician will want to retry that and furthermore I see no way any Supreme Court justices will overturn it.

(Do any of you with long memories remember by what margin we lost when we went to the Supreme Court? That would be interesting to know.).

Our only hope is to force the tribes to live up to the agreement. We need better enforcement, better reporting and perhaps some tweaking of laws, and negotiated allotment adjustments, but we will not live long enough to see Boldt overturned.

The constant tribal bashing on this web site is ridiculous and tiresome. Of course some Indian fishermen cheat, just like some white guys cheat, but the general tenor of these threads tends to condemn an entire race, and you can sense the seething anger reserved for the tribes. You can defend it Aunty, but it makes me sick.