I have heard a great deal about how the closure of our recreational crab season was based on, what seem to be unscientific guesses. My question is how accurate are the tribal harvest numbers?

Can someone explain exactly how tribal harvest numbers are recorded, audited and totaled? Do the tribal harvest numbers reported include ceremonial catches as well? Is the system producing accurate data?

I have a friend who was a non-tribal commercial crabber for many years. He tells me he has watched tribal boats off load what he believes to be tons of crabs, but the buyer’s records show only hundreds of pounds. Just anecdotal evidence, but I hear similar stories regularly. What’s the truth?

It has been my experience that Indian and non-Indian commercial crab catches are pretty well documented when they are sold to a seafood dealer/wholesaler. These fishers use the same buyers. The "fish receiving ticket," requiring I.D. and signature of the fisherman, is common throughout. This is how the vast majority of the Indian and non-Indian commercial catch gets recorded. Commercial crab fishermen recording their catch on a ticket can take home crab for whatever reason.... personal use, subsistence, ceremonial... but these must show up on the fish receiving ticket.

Now, do all commercial crab get recorded on tickets? They are required to... tribal and non-tribal alike. But there is a relatively small portion that does not. That is where each individual fishery management agency comes in. Each has its own system for accounting for unrecorded catch. As with other management functions, this catch recording success varies from agency to agency. For instance, I know of some Tribes that do an excellent job of recording catch that is not on tickets and some who's system leaves something to be desired.

All in all, the commercial catch (tribal and non-tribal) is well documented.

The short answer Dave is no. In Hood Canal especially the tribes declared an "emergency opening" a week or so before the sports opening. They were bringing the crabs into the boat launch for all to see. The reports said that they were bringing in about 40,000 lbs per day. The quota for the whole canal was only 240,000 lbs....Let's see...40 times 6 days = 240,000lbs. And that was after they had already been harvesting for a few months. The non-indian commercial crabbers sell their crab to a buyer who in turns has 24 hours to report the catch by fax or phone. The tribes on the other hand sell to tribal buyer who , I'm told, report atleast 1-2 months later. There has been widespread under reporting and alot of people inside and outside WDFW are well aware of it. They all say the same thing though..we have to accept what they tell us even though we know it is bull**** because they are immune from our jurisdiction. Tribal enforcement is a joke and our legislators are starting to take lots of money from the tribes so there you go. Bad reporting and bad stewardship of the resource. No wonder there are not so many crabs in Puget Sound at this time.

The tribes went back in the water on Oct 1. They made a pact with the non indian commercials to only use 50 pots per boat instead of the approved 100. That worked for a week or so until the tribes decided they weren't getting enough crab so they went back to the 100 pots per boat.....Not sure if they even informed their commercial partners about it .

So my question to you Dave is this: How can this state manage the crab if they do not have an accurate idea of how many crab there are and who is harvesting what?

You see, this is what I am talking about... there is a WHOLE bunch of mis-information being spread around here. And it isn't helping anyone.

In Hood Canal, there was no "ememrgency opening" by the tribes... that is when they normally fish. Yes, the tribal fishers bring crab in to the boat launches for all to see... where else are they going to bring them in?

I can imagine that there were days when 40,000 pounds were caught. And your math is about right... that's how many days the tribal commercial crab fishery has been open in Hood Canal... six. If you don't believe me ask the WDFW crab managers.

The tribal crabbers and non- tribal crabbers all sell to the same buyers pretty much. All the fish tickets go to the same database, tribal or non-tribal. Again, ask the WDFW folks if you don't believe me. What is different about Hood Canal is there is no non-tribal commercial fishery, just tribal. That is a policy choice of WDFW to reserve all of the State's share of Hood Canal crab for the recreational fishers.

You are just plain wrong about the tribes having commercial fisheries for a couple of months in Hood Canal prior to the June opener. And you are plain wrong about the number of pots each crabber is allowed. Try 25 to 35 per vessel. But do not take my word for it... really, I wouldn't want you to believe a "tribal apologist" (added for humor)... ask your WDFW crab manager.

Tribal enforcement is no more a joke than any other agency's enforcement... some are better and some are worse than others.

Grandpa, the "blanket coverage" you use in your descriptions and speculations make you less credible. Not all tribal fishers are outlaws and not all tribes are irresponsible yet you cover them all in your statements. Its like an out-of-towner going down to the Quilcene River, watching that freak show and then coming away with the following beliefs....
1.) all recreational fishers in Washington are snaggers and 2.) the State of Washington does not know how to manage its fisheries or its resources properly. Unless your experiences have provided you with personal insight regarding each of the 21 treaty tribes in Western Washington, how woulld you know enough to make these blanket statements?

Just an observation, of course.

I am in the fisheries management business. Over the past 29 years I have worked for several tribes as well as the State of Washington, the University of Washington and the NMFS. In other words, I have been on different sides of the coin. No management entity is above reproach. All have their pluses and minuses regarding the caliber of their work and their level of resource concern. You have an obvious deep-seated disregard for tribes and tribal fishers. But don't paint all trtibes and all tribal fishers with that same broad brush.

Peace out.

Pnw- I certainly disagree with most of your statements. There has been incidents time and againg where tribal members have fished out of season, poached big game out of season etc etc etc. On most of these incidents they don't even get prosecuted by the tribal enforcement folks. Grandpa may rant to a degree, but what he's talking about happens all the time. I've seen it with my own eyes. I know this much as a sportfisherman, if I did what the tribes do, I would be in jail. They don't hold themselves accountable.
What about all the crab at the casino "all you can eat crab fests". Are those being recorded. What about all the tribal pots in the recreational only zone between Everett and Mukilteo. Tribes do what they want when they want and thumb their nose at the rest of us.

OK this is getting ridiculous...PNW has absolutely no credibility. I am quite sure if someone revealed his identity it would be obvious why he apologizes and covers for the tribes. There are folks that know alot more than I do about crabbing and I will get some more facts for you but for now I can assure everyone that tribal crab catches are absolutely not sold to the same buyers and are absolutely not reported consistently as are the non indian commercial catches. Especially in Hood Canal the tribal abuses are legendary to those on the ground in that area both inside and outside WDFW

The misinformation is coming from you PNW and not from me. Your facts are just like the ones you tried to float on the I-892 initiative when you stepped up to defend the tribes once again on that issue to maintain their monopoly. They won that one with $5 million dollars worth of lies and scare tactics. They have guys like you to run around and spread loads of crap to all who would listen. I am not buying any of it. The tribes are very sensitive about their image these days and I can't blame them. There are a bunch of great folks in our various tribes but there are also some greedy members who run the casinos and housing programs. crab pots and gill nets. The tribes are a big huge chunk of the problem with our fisheries. Just because you say something is so in defense of the tribes does not mean much in my book.

Regarding Hood Canal, I thought I read that Indian netters were no longer going to dump gutted fish back into the water. But then I read reports (from this site) that it is still going on over there. If this is so, did they not know about the advisory or are they just saying screw it???

The gill netters were heading to Kingston as we were heading into the marina tonight. They could catch 1000 Chums and strip the eggs and toss the carcasses overboard ...keep a few males to sell for .15 per # so the buyer will have a fish ticket to turn in some time in July of next year. Sell the eggs for $2.00 + per pound and nobody's the wiser....

From what I have seen with my own two eyes I am 100% with Grandpa on this one.
Ramprat

In Hood Canal the deceit of the Skoks is legendary according to those in the know inside the WDFW and among knowledgeable folks in different organizations. No one wants to try to take on the tribes and no one has found a way to hold them accountable as they trot out their sovereign nation protective shield whenever the need arises. Their "season" for crabbing is a far cry from the 6 days I mentioned earlier. The 6 days I mentioned were the days directly preceeding the sports pots going in. My point was that they took what was supposed to be the canalwide quota in those 6 days as if the rest of the year didn't count. Like right now for example. Tribal pots line Puget Sound. 24/7. And the number of pots "allowed" is 100 per boat. That does not mean that every boat deploys 100 pots but they will if they can. Some of the buoys you see on the surface are attached to multiple pots . In fact, in area 7, the tribes for the first time ever made a deal with the non-tribal commercials to limit their mutual pot count to only 50 per boat. This was implemented at the beginning of their "season" which just got started a month or so after the sports season was closed on an emergency basis because we got our "quota". After a week or so the tribes panicked saying they were not taking enough crab so they **** canned the agreement they had made and went back to fishing with 100 pots per boat. I got an on-the-water report when the season opened from a friend who was on a ferry bound for Friday Harbor in the San Juans...he said the ferry actually had to stop because there were so many crab pots in the water it partially blocked navigation. The Coast Guard most likely told them to call the tribal enforcement folks as the US has no jurisdiction over the indian "nations" becuase they are sovereign governments. If they had made that call I bet they got no answer.

The tribes actually threatened to shut down all sports crabbing because they allege that we cannot accurately count our catch. That's right. They would go to federal court and say they were not being given their court ordered 50%. Well we can't claim accuracy yet. We do have the CRC (catch record card) but it will not be of much use until it is totally implemented in 2005. All we have is the phone survey method of counting sports catch. Most of the money collected by the additional $3.00 fee tacked on to your license for the crab CRC went to the company hired to do this fflawed phone survey.Then the CRC results will not be tallied until the end of the season. The notion that the tribes are really accurate in reporting is just plain ridiculous. They sell to tribal buyers who most often do not report in the 24 hour window allowed the non-indian commercials but most often take 2-3 months to do so and then the data is under reported by all accounts.

Think about it for a second. When we come to the ramps with our boats we are greeted by a WDFW fish checker. The commercial boats are not. Here's an example: This spring I went fishing out of Cathlamet on the Columbia River. When we came back to the dock the fish checker was checking every boat. On the dock right next to ours were all the gill netters. One guy had his pickup backed down the ramp and was loading Chinook into a tote in the back of the pick up from the boat. No one was checking his dock at all. Only sports fishermen get checked. Why isn;t a checker deployed to count the commercial catch? Now I know there is a modest effort to enforce commercial fishing but is there any effort to police crabbing? I think not. This is a big enough deal to warrant some accountability. Sports needs to be accountable as do the commercials including the "untouchable " tribes. They won't allow scrutiny because their hands are real dirty. They don't want fin clipping as mandated because that means accountability. They don't want fin clipping because they think that would allow "us" to catch some of "their" fish.

We are looking at many proposals to solve this problem. The CRC is one solution. We are thinking that fish checkers who already are deployed all season at the docks could collect data on crabs and shrimp and not just fish. There is also substantial discussion about the overall health of the crab population in Puget ?Sound. It may just be that there are far less crab out there than we think. If that is the case we will all need to sacrifice even more than we already have. The big question is whether the tribes can be forced to sacrifice? They certainly have not shown a willingness to compromise or get along yet. I would love to see a day when I can stop criticizing the tribes and sit down with them to solve our problem on an equal basis. As long as they head down the road they are on I don't see that happening for some time. I really hope I am wrong.

Grandpa, I agree with most everything you say. The only thing I would add is that I do believe the crab population is down. It's went down every since the tribes got 50% of the harvestable shellfish. The same thing that happened to salmon and steelhead after the Boldt decision. It sure seemed coincidental that the crab I was seeing diminsihed rapidly after the tribes got 50%. Up until about 5 years ago you could get good crab pretty much throughout the season which back then was the better part of the year. So obviously us recreational fisherman weren't cleaning them out. I agree that until the tribes are held accountable nothing will ever change and I'll guarantee that they don't account for what they do.

I have seen this last weekend but didn't have my camera

Dont believe a word PCNW says.

I was at a BBQ this summer with a TM in this area who told me he fishes an average of 150 pots.

I worked in La Push for over 3 years do you think all the short crabs the tribal boats bring in get counted? No I know they dont, they get dumped in the river or given away. Is anybody counting the crabs that are sold off of the tribal boats? I dont think so! Are the non tribal boats treated alot different than the tribal boats in La Push? You betcha!

Thanks.....I never have

It's not just happening here with our "crab-Grab". Check this out.....
An article in the November 5th "Indian Country Today" is a chilling preview of economic "coming attractions" for every state that is host to a federally recognized Indian tribe, particular a gambling tribe. One need only count the number of Indian tribes within a single state to understand the multiple impact upon a single state's economy.

I urge you to slowly and carefully read the following article:

ICT [2004/11/05] McSloy: After the 'new buffalo:' Tribal wealth management

http://www.indiancountry.com/content.cfm?id=1096409808

A couple of key phrases suggest the powerful impact upon a single state, and subsequently upon the national economy when a national cumulative economic impact is understood:

"So after the gold rush (IGRA), after the new buffalo have run their course and Indian nations once again control vast resources..."

"Indian nations, due to their sovereignty, ...can instead run diversified businesses free of taxes and burdensome state laws."

"Led in many cases by the same visionary leaders who made the most of the advent of Indian gaming, taking on states in compact negotiations and the courts and creating a new GNP for their nations, many tribes now compete with the largest American corporations..." (Again - free of taxes and burdensome state laws!)

With 562 federally recognized tribes completely given a congressionally protected monopoly (Class III gambling) to generate enormous and unaccountable money, "free of taxes and burdensome state laws," - this dual economy for America is already a frightening reality: one economy for taxpayers; another economy funded by taxpayers for congressionally protected tax evaders.

Ada Deer, former Menominee tribal leader, was exactly correct when she said in 1975, "We use the system to beat the system."

America cannot sustain its national military, health, education and economic obligations while simultaneously fueling a parastic second economy that is provided a congressionally protected marketplace advantage to eliminate or cripple America's taxpaying businesses.

I encourage you to do three things continuously over the next few years:

1. Educate every citizen you know.
2. Communicate frequently with every one of your elected officials.
3. Demand equality in America's marketplace.


Elaine D. Willman, Chair
Citizens Equal Rights Alliance (CERA)
P.O. 1280
Toppenish, WA 98948
Phone: 509-865-6225
Fax: 509-865-7409
Email: toppin@aol.com
Website: http://www.citizensalliance.org/
An organization seeking Constitutional and civil rights for individuals on or near Indian reservations.

Shoot you didnt have to tell me that.

Its our own darn faults people we are the ones that voted the people in in DC that did this.


but you know the thing that really sucks is that you have PCNW sitting here trying to fill us full of bull while he is laughing all the way to the bank. The truth is that all the federally recognized tribes are funded by the federal government. Nearly all the tribes governments, services and programs are 100% ran by federal tax dollars. And guess what the tribes do not pay taxes.

We are paying PCNW to lie to us that is the truth!!!

I bet that makes everyone feel warm and fuzzy..

The positive side of things is this.

Not trying to make this a polotics thing but wiht Bush getting a second term and the probability that the Supremem court is going to get a whole lot more conservitive over the next few years it seems that there is a real big opportunity to maybe get the Boldt Decision re-visited.

No conservative politician is going to see anything reasonable or comman sense about the Boldt Decision the way it is now.

Every part of our federal government is going to be controlled by conservatives by the time the next four years is over and we might even get a republican govenor.

This is our opportunity to get our fish and shelfish back. We need to take advantage of it.

This has nothing to do with racism or bigotry. This is comman sense and the way things our now are very unfair and biased agianst tax payers.

Dream on Rich. Boldt went through Reagan and Gorton, no change. The lengths you and Grandpa et al go to villify Indians, and now PNW, is pathetic. Just admit it: you hate 'em.

Rich: SB is right, at least about the chances of changing the Boldt Decision. This had nothing to do with who was in the white house, or Govenor’s office.

Slade, who was an able attorney, fought that like the devil and lost.

I do not believe there is anyway any politician will want to retry that and furthermore I see no way any Supreme Court justices will overturn it.

(Do any of you with long memories remember by what margin we lost when we went to the Supreme Court? That would be interesting to know.).

Our only hope is to force the tribes to live up to the agreement. We need better enforcement, better reporting and perhaps some tweaking of laws, and negotiated allotment adjustments, but we will not live long enough to see Boldt overturned.

The constant tribal bashing on this web site is ridiculous and tiresome. Of course some Indian fishermen cheat, just like some white guys cheat, but the general tenor of these threads tends to condemn an entire race, and you can sense the seething anger reserved for the tribes. You can defend it Aunty, but it makes me sick.

SB..I see your point but respectfully disagree with your assessment of my hate for anyone. I do not hate. Disagreeing with and speaking out against abuses is not hate. I do not agree with the way things are going with the implementation of Boldt and Rafeedie. That's all. No racism..No hate...just honest disgust for what is going on. I believe I have mentioned in the past that the majority of tribal members are not well off and suffer poverty and alcoholism in great percentages. I feel sick about that in light of the riches bestowed on many tribes. I have no problem with the tribes excercising their court given rights to our fish and shellfish. I do have a problem with overstepping those rights to the detriment of every other citizen of our country. That is far from hate. Sure my statements are passionate at times and sarcastic at times but not hateful. This is a serious debate and if it makes you sick don't participate.

I agree with Dave about the Boldt decision. I agree it won't be overturned but that we need to atleast try for some accountability so we can be assured that the tribes are getting their court given share of 50% and not taking things into their own hands by cheating and abusing what they have. Saying we should not say anything because there are non-indian poachers and abusers is a cop out. I am one who believes that the term "in kind" found in the 1855 treaties meant that the tribes could harvest fish on the same playing field with the rest of the population in the same way with the same rules. The court ruled otherwise but I don't think they had any idea to what extent the tribes would take this ruling.

Politicians are increasingly shy to even discuss tribal issues because most of them are taking big contributions from the tribes. For the rest of us to just sit on the sidelines silently for fear of offending folks would not be what I think our country is all about. So sling the arrows with racism but know that you are just plain wrong.

As with most factions of our society today, there are those who have it all figured out and no one can tell them any different... if you do, you are vilified. But that is OK with me because in my profession I run across these types of people all the time. I can tell you that I (personally) do not have these resource sharing and fishery conflict issues figured out. Why? Because most of these resource-sharing differences are unavoidable and many fishery conflicts are driven by differing policy decisions made by government entities.

Many of us sports fishers believe we are getting a raw deal… with crab or whatever species you want to talk about. You certainly can count me as not at all thrilled about not being able to go catch fresh crab past early September. But to blame this problem on other fishers and fisheries alone avoids, at least in large part, some of the common sense matters we have facing us in this region. For example, the crab resource in Puget Sound has been somewhat stable the last 10 years or so. Do you think the sport fishing population has been stable as well? I don't. We are a growing group. Look around you and it is easy to figure out. Have you noticed how crowded the Puget Sound region is getting? Do you enjoy getting stuck in bumper-to-bumper traffic on I-5... ON A SATURDAY??? The housing industry is booming. The boat building industry is booming. The new sporting goods warehouse stores are not popping up because the sport fishing population is going down... it is growing and these sporting goods companies track these kinds of statistics and build where the growth is. So, lets use some common sense here. Growing population, static resource... do the math.

For those of you on this site who are not close-minded, let me share with you some of the FACTS regarding the Dungeness crab fisheries in this State. And, by all means, do not accept my word alone… check these out with anyone else who actually KNOWS something about how crab are managed in this state.

FACT: Except for a portion of the coastline south of Point Chehalis down to and including the lower Columbia, Dungeness crab in our State are managed jointly by the State of Washington and treaty tribes.

FACT: It is important to know that treaty rights are subject to a number of court-ordered conditions. Whether these conditions are being met is often subject to dispute… between tribes, between a tribe and the state, etc..

FACT: Treaty rights do not guarantee catch. Until caught, the harvestable resource remains in public ownership. The treaty rights are those of the tribes and the tribal governing body and not those of the individual fisher. This is the same way it works for us sport fishers. We, as individuals, do not own the resource. We do not have a “right” to the resource and it is the same with any tribal member. We may qualify to purchase a license, which allows us to access the resource under specific conditions and rules. In the same way, tribal fishers are licensed by their tribes and subject to tribal ordinances and regulations.

FACT: The Dungeness crab resource is managed by region. The regions consist of areas such as the coast, the Strait, Hood Canal, North Sound, Central Sound and South Sound.

FACT: Annually, the WDFW and those treaty tribes located in the regions referenced above, determine the harvestable number of crab FOR EACH REGION. That harvestable number is divided equally. The WDFW manages the state’s portion of a region's harvestable crab and the treaty tribes manage theirs... under an agreed-to plan.

FACT: The WDFW makes policy decisions for each region as to how the non-treaty share is to be divided between sport fishers and commercial fishers. Each region is largely independent of the other.

FACT: On the coast the non-treaty share is harvested, almost entirely, by commercial fisheries that begin on or around December 1 each year. Up until a few years ago there was no pot limit for these commercial fishers. Some of the larger boats would fish 1,000 pots. At its peak the non-treaty coastal crab fishery had over 100,000 pots in the water. Today, there is a pot limit for each license holder and a moratorium on new vessels entering the fishery.

FACT: The non-treaty share of the Hood Canal region crab are harvested by sports fishers only.

FACT: The non-treaty crab fishery in the North Sound region, for example, is a mixture of sport and commercial fisheries. Normally, the commercial fishery does not start until October with the sport fishery operating during the summer months.

FACT: Commercial crabbers, BOTH TRIBAL AND NON-TRIBAL, sell to the same seafood dealers and processors, regardless of region. Catch from these sales is recorded in essentially the same manner with I.D. and signature of the fisher required. People that say otherwise do not know the commercial crab fishery. The possible exception to this is in Hood Canal where no non-Indian commercial crab fishery takes place. But even here several buyers from other regions come over and purchase crab from tribal crabbers.

FACT: The treaty tribes manage their crab fisheries with a different set of policy decisions than the WDFW does. In every region there are several tribes with treaty fishing rights to crab. The tribes within each region must determine how to conduct their fisheries. Typically (in Puget Sound), a pot limit is established along with a season or a fishing schedule. THE POT LIMIT IN ONE REGION IS NOT THE SAME AS THE POT LIMIT IN ANOTHER REGION... also, the tribes that fish in one region may not be the same tribes that fish in another.

FACT: There are concerns about catch accountability in the Puget Sound crab fishery... all portions of the Puget Sound crab fishery. There are many fishery management biologists, tribal and state, working on these issues... right now.

PROFESSIONAL OPINION: It does little to support the cause of the sport fishing public to declare that the sport fishers "only get 17% of the crab" in Puget Sound. This just distorts the issue. What would be much more useful and more telling is to list each region, figure out what the non-treaty share was and then compare the non-treaty commercial catch with the sport catch over, say, the last 5 years. With those statistics at hand one could determine whether a case could be made for some re-distribution of harvestable crab within a region.

Finally, I hope I do not stoop to the low level of behavior exhibited by several people on this site. If I do, please let me know and I will correct myself. I endeavor to not point fingers like some or make comments about individuals, like some. It is obvious that several folks here maintain hatred for certain segments of our society and wish to blame their problems on those they hate. I would remind everyone that no one is perfect, no government is blameless for their decisions and the actions of one person do not reflect the actions of another. Be careful with that broad brush, it’s a dangerous tool. The original question was about the accounting of commercial crab catches. I have offered perspective you may not get from the typical person on this site. And because we live in a free country with a democratic form of government, people are free to take it or leave it. Your choice!

I just want to inform you people that if you think that any of our local governments or federal governments are going to do anything about what the tribes get away with you are sadly mistaken. Since I work for a government agency I hear whats going on. The tribes have a strong hold in Washington DC, what ever they want they get. I can tell you what is going to happen when the marine life gets wiped out the tribes are then going to blame the white man for giving the tribes the ok to do what they want the white man don't have the CHI-CHI's to fight the tribes or the money. So until then we are hosed as sportsman. The only thing we can do right now is stand united and start complaining to Washington DC, we might not be able to change anything in our life time but maybe our grand kids might do better. If there is anything left by then.

I have to side with Aunty M here on this one PNW. Seems like you are looking through some pretty rose colored glasses there, just because you say its so, does not make it so.

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I hope I do not stoop to the low level of behavior exhibited by several people on this site. If I do, please let me know and I will correct myself. I endeavor to not point fingers like some or make comments about individuals, like some. It is obvious that several folks here maintain hatred for certain segments of our society and wish to blame their problems on those they hate.
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You have reached a level that none of us here have stooped to, and that is to profess to tell us that we have stooped to a low level by doing exactly the same thing that you do, and that is giving your opinion. That is what we are all doing here, what I find so un-palatable from you is that while professing to not do , you are doing just that.
I for one have seen with my own two eyes that the tribes are treated differently than the general public, I'm from N.Y. and know that when it smells, there are rats around......
Remember, just because we differ in opinion does not mean that I am a racist

PNW, the real fact here is that the tribes do what they want, when they want and are accountable to no one and certainly not themselves. They regularly break laws and just plain ethics and nothing is done. They laugh all the way to the bank. You really are full of yourself.

And that is why nothing ever changes, he said she said , they say we say ,everybody is wrong nobodys right,this is kind of like a Tom Wait's tune!!!PEACE not WAR

FACT: Anytime BIG MONEY is involved, you/we should be suspicious. This is not a tribal issue, but a humanity issue. - Devolopers, Real estate, Business, Fisheries, Forrestry, Gov't - It's all the same. (What industry did I miss?)

I thank AuntyM for saving me time as it is really late for a 4am riser. Good for you Aunty for calling this woolf in sheeps clothing out on his misstatements. There are a few more to address later.... PNW does get a few things correct but most is rhetoric and misleading falsehoods under the guise of "expert opinion"...OH PULEEEEZE...expert?

Your arguments don't hold water and especially with this elusive "expert" status you have bestowed on yourself. Knowledgeable yes but expert? I think not. If you are a tribal employee with knowledge of fish good for you! Your arguments for tribal gambling and fishing abuses are so transparent they approach ridiculous. The picture you are trying to paint of the tribal commercial crabber is ludicrous to anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear.

I do want to correct something I may have implied earlier, however. The tribes do perform acts of fair play and kindness from time to time. An eye witness to indian crabbers robbing sports crab pots in Hood Canal pointed out the error of my ways. He said I should mention that he felt good in the end because the indian poachers did return the sports pots to the water and did not steal them.

There is an article in today's Seattle Times web-site about the commercial harvest of chum salmon. It appears that the entire fish is utilized. Is this article biased? Maybe. But, nevertheless, why can't the Skokomish Indians use the entire fish or at least conserve the resource? At least they could release male chums out of the net and only take females. But, instead, they gaff every fish out of the net, males go directly back into the water (with a hole in them) and females go to the gutting station. It would take just a little extra effort here to return half of these fish. They would have to grab each one by the tail or invent a little noose to grab them with.

That would eliminate half the rotting cadavers I step on when I go there and that would make me happy!!!

How about taking a picture of a bunch of these gaffed fish, then sending it to the SEATTLE TIMES writer who wrote the story. Maybe then he will see he's being fed a bunch of BS from the tribes, and dig for the real truth.

Mike

Well, I am not surprised about the follow-up comments. Yes, I deal with people who have "all the answers" on a regular basis so I am used to it. I do wish to reiterate, however... please do not take my word for anything. If you seriously doubt what I have explained are the FACTS then I would ask you attempt to disprove or corroborate them by asking someone else who actually KNOWS what they are talking about. So far, that has not been the case. What I mean is, ask someone who is involved in the management of the Puget Sound crab fishery.

Before the population explosion around here which is one accuracy noted by pnw, no one even bothered to count the crab catches and we crabbed all year long. We could be in a down cycle in terms of overall populations too. With that said, that begs the question of accuracy of the tribal reporting. We now address the imbalance of harvest because of the closures that limit sports access to the crabs. Sports crabbers (over 100,000 of us) must share the non-tribal piece of the pie with some of the commercial license holders (about 240). The tribes are supposed to get half of the total available for harvest. If their reporting was as above board as pnw (Stands With A Crab) would have us believe and we could trust the numbers then we might stand alone with a problem which is the sports count..The method of counting the sports catch is seriously flawed and is in the process of being fixed. This whole debate centers around the notion that the tribes are cheating. I think they are and PNW swears they are as honest as the other commercials. He swears that they sell their crab to the same buyers and report all their catch accurately within 24 hours. I say he is wrong. The Skoks in particular in the canal are notorious for inaccurate reporting. The problem is that no one wants to publicly take on the tribes as there is still too much sympathy for them and the politicians need their gambling money. And, as you have seen here, any complaint about or criticism of the tribes brings the immediate charge of hate and racism. Most of the media won't take that risk so they won't print anything that could be construed as against the tribes. The Tacoma News Tribune does print great stuff but I bet they get branded by guys like pnw as racist.

Just imagine how things would be if this state had a single entity to police all sides and the tribes did not hide behind the sovereign nation shield. What would it be like if the tribes would pay for catching geoduck like everyone else is forced to. Imagine if they did not higrade their catches. Imagine if they paid taxes for all the natural resources they harvest.

We need to enforce Boldt and Rafeedie and hold the tribes accountable. You have seen what power their untaxed gambling money has in our government and if nothing is done to hold them accountable we may have to stow all our fishing gear and toss our crab and shrimp pots. Guys like PNW mix facts with fiction in their attempt to sanitize the tribes. In my book it will take alot of actions to prove to me that the tribes are part of the solution and not the bulk of the problem.

BTTNM, perhaps you should ask our resident "Expert" PNW. He seems to have all of the anwers to what and how the tribes do things, I guess all of us here are just plain wrong about the things that we have observed.
Give me a break, its not a state sercret, if you work for, are married to or are a tribal member then just say it................

I applaud pacificnw for his noble defence of tribal fishermen. We are all human and suffer that consequence together. His thoughts are fueling this debate causing us all to introspect our own positions.
Soon a decision will be made to eliminate all non-tribal commercial crab fishing within Puget Sound. I wonder if his tribes will sign onto that decision to eliminate their commercial competition?