Is it your contention, then, that Kerry and Fonda have the same ideals today?

After a quick search of my own, I found some information about the Winter Soldier rally in Detroit, to include excerpts from Brinkley's book on Kerry:

"Kerry did not testify; he mostly observed. A film documentary made on the conference briefly captures Kerry asking an ex-soldier what he wants to say about what Kerry called "the crimes" in Vietnam.

"I'd almost need a book to answer that, man," the young man tells him. "I didn't like being an animal, and I didn't like seeing everybody else turn into animals, either."

The camera does not show Kerry responding.

Clean-shaven and wearing a collared shirt and slacks, Kerry did not fit in, his friends say. Indeed, two participants contacted by the Free Press said they never saw him in Detroit.

Brinkley wrote that Kerry stayed purposely low-key.

"While Kerry thought the U.S.-declared free fire zones, B52 bombing raids, defoliation campaigns, and search-and-destroy policies in Vietnam all morally reprehensible, he refused to mount a soapbox and detail atrocities he witnessed in the Mekong Delta at a forlorn motel," Brinkley wrote in "Tour of Duty."

"He was adverse to the cultivated sloppiness of professional peaceniks."

Perhaps my search techniques aren't as good as most, but I can't find any reference to a Fonda/Kerry alliance after that. But if there is, I trust you'll enlighten me.

OK, so they DID have an alliance - even if it was 30yrs ago. My point is that I do have grounds to draw a link between Fonda and Kerry and any comparison to Hitler\GW is silly.

Hitler and GW are one in the same

My point is the past is the past. Bush seems to want to deny his past and exploit Kerry's. Umm by Bush i guess i mean Bush supporters not the man himself. I have not heard anyone making an issue of Bush's arrest .

SO you have to choose.. If kerrys record in Vietnam is valid then so is Bush's history including his arrest record.. you cannot havit it both ways. Either the past is valid now or it's not...

Also if you look into Kerry's record you'll find that at the time kerry's commanding officers wrote glowing reports about him. Why is it they are changing their story now?? Were they lying then or atr they lying now???

Yeah, PP, I'll give ya that. Of course the Bush/Hitler thing was ripe with sarcasm and not meant to be taken seriously.

I have faith that Kerry would not have supported Fonda's ideals after I heard McCain and Dole comment on Kerry's patriotism. Two disabled veterans from the opposite party that have tremendous credibility to me.

RA3 - I agree what's in the past is past. Men change a lot in 30 years; their values, ideals, goals, etc. But I'll tell you something about military reports; everyone walks on water. I've seen evaluations done on guys that didn't have a pot to piss in, yet you'd think they were a god by the way it was written. And I don't believe it was Kerry's CO's that are being critical, I believe it is other officers of that time period that are being critical of the evaluations and awards he received. Could be nothing more than sour grapes or partisan arguments.

I wasn't there, so I don't know. But, unless the critics were there next to him on that boat when he received his wounds, then they shouldn't question the medical records or the CO's evaluations.

4salt,

You need to read a little deeper. You covered the 30k foot veiw. The JFK/Kruschev meetings were a foot note because it was an embarassment to the admin. and for some reason historian like to keep the shine on Camelot.

Actually, the main reason for US involvment against North Vietnam was to stop the USSR from expanding to a large warm water, sea port. It was always a strategic initiative to stop the USSR from creating aircraft carriers which, during and after WWII, were recognized as an amazing source of power that could be broad in reach, concentrated in force, and continuous deployment.

The US fought to defend South Vietnam against the North because it would eventually lead to an invasion towards the gulf of Thailand. Such a gulf was nearly perfect strategically because it has very deep waters, granite coastline perfect for underground structures for secret manufacturing and testing, high and jagged mountains which are very easy to defend and difficult to navigate by both infantry, vehicle and most aircraft alike making enemy invasion from land very difficult. Best of all, the gulf has a very narrow choke point that has visibility from one point to the other which makes invasion from the sea just as suicidal.

The US was not concerned as much over China's communist forces because China did not have the financial means to begin development and massive deployment of military vessel production in that gulf. But, the US generals new that as long as China had close relations with the USSR, China would ask the USSR to handle such development in exchange for China using their military to overrun Thailand and Taiwan.

It was fortunate for the US that Mao had a firm contempt for Russian Communism and its policies, so after the US-NVA cease fire agreement at the Paris Accord and takeover of South Vietnam by the Chinese and Khemer Rouge no such invasion was possible because military and financial assistance from the USSR was not going to come.

I think you've lost me King.

The Khmer Rouge were Cambodian communists who took over power in Cambodia AFTER the Vietnam war. The North Vietnamese army with assistance from China (mainly weapons) are the ones who finally captured Saigon, forcing the South's surrender and re-uniting the country under the northern communist rule.

To my knowledge, the VAST majority of the southeast Asian coastline is shallow swampland. If the Soviets actually wanted a southern port, they could have just invaded Thailand or Cambodia which would have given them already established ports in the gulf of Thailand.

Soviet involvement in the war WAS NOT to gain more territory! China would NOT have allowed that to happen. Besides, any kind of meaningful supply routes over land from the U.S.S.R. to the gulf would have to cross Chinese territory, unless they went OVER the Himalaya's through India, which again is HIGHLY unlikely.

The Soviets supported the global spread of communism and the downfall of western democracy, that's why they supplied arms and advisors to North Vietnam.

p.s. Here's a map of southeast Asia. I'm pretty sure there are NO high granite mountains surrounding the Gulf of Thailand (though this map isn't very detailed) to provide what you alledge.

4salt,
Maybe this will help you come out of the box you are stuck in. The conflict was not just about North Vs. South Vietnam. China and russia and simlar and divergent goals. It involved the whole region.

(kemĕr´ roozh) , name given to native Cambodian Communists. Khmer Rouge soldiers, aided by North Vietnamese and Viet Cong troops, began a large-scale insurgency against government forces in 1970, quickly gaining control over more than two thirds of the country. The strength of the Khmer Rouge rose dramatically from around 3,000 in 1970 to more than 30,000 in 1973, enabling most of the North Vietnamese and Viet Cong troops to withdraw. In 1975 the movement, led by Pol Pot , overthrew the Cambodian government, establishing “Democratic Kampuchea.” The new government carried out a radical program of evacuating cities, closing schools and factories, and herding the population into collective farms. Intellectuals and skilled workers were assassinated, and a total of perhaps as many as 1.5 million died, inclusive of starvation and forced marches. In 1979, after increasing tensions with Vietnam, Vietnamese troops invaded, aiding a rival Communist faction to depose the Khmer Rouge government. The Khmer Rouge, however, continued to field an army of c.30,000 near the Thai border and retained UN recognition as the official Cambodian government. In 1982 it formed a coalition with former premier Norodom Sihanouk and non-Communist leader Son Sann. Khieu Samphan officially succeeded Pol Pot as head of the Khmer Rouge in 1985, but Pol Pot was believed to remain the real leader. All Cambodian factions signed (1991) a treaty calling for UN-supervised elections and disarming 70% of all forces. In 1992 the United Nations assumed the government's administrative functions, while the Khmer Rouge withdrew from the peace process and resumed fighting. The following year the Khmer Rouge rejected the results of the UN-run elections that brought a coalition government to Cambodia. The guerrilla force lost about half to three quarters of its strength (3,000-4,000 soldiers) in a mass defection in 1996. Factional fighting within the Khmer Rouge in 1997 led to Pol Pot's ouster, trial, and imprisonment by the Khmer Rouge. The group continued to disintegrate, and factional fighting resumed in 1998. Pol Pot died in April, Khieu Samphan surrendered in Dec., 1998, and by 1999 most members had defected, surrendered, or been captured.

King,

I found that same blurb when doing my google search!

You just helped prove my point! the Khmer Rouge were Cambodians! Pol Pot was the Dictator of Cambodia. They DID NOT help the North Vietnamese win the war against the south. The North Vietnamese helped the Khmer Rouge come to power in Cambodia.


It's right there in what you posted!

So, when did the War of 1812 REALLY start?

Gee... that's a tough one! 1952?

I KNEW IT!!! That damn lib media has been hiding the TRUTH from us. Time for a congressional investigation....

4salt,

You cannot be that dense. Well maybe you are just doing google searches and do not have a working knowledge of the region at that time. The Khmer growing in power under Soviet and Chinese influance allowed them to take over the comunist/socialst effort on the remainder of the Peninsula. Freeing up the NVA which formerly had been operating under Soviet direct in Cambodia, Laos and Thailand in those areas. This allowed the NVA to push the lines and ultimately retake the South with our pull out. Giving the Soviets or the Chinese the option on the entire Peninsula. Had they had the economies to do anything with them which they did not.
You might try a few Google searches about our unoffical operations in Cambodia and Laos in order to understand the role the Khmer played.

It's true King! I AM dense! Just as dense as those immense granite mountains you contend surround the Gulf of Thailand... that serve as the perfect development and testing ground for top-secret Soviet weapons technology! :p

You've been reading a LOT of Tom Clancy lately... haven't you.

Three quarters of Vietnam's territory consists of mountains and hills. Vietnam is divided into four distinct mountainous zones.


The Northeastern Zone (Viet Bac)
This zone stretches from the Red River Valley to the Gulf of Tonkon. The mountainous area of Viet Bac is scattered with famous sights: Dong Nhat Grotto, Dong Nhi Grotto, and Tam Thanh Grotto in Lang Son Province; Bac Bo Grotto and Ban Gioc Waterfall in Cao Bang; Ba Be Lake in Bac Kan; Yen Tu Mountain and Halong Bay in Quang Ninh; and Tay Con Linh, the highest mountain peak in the region reaching 2,341 meters above sea level.


The Northwestern Zone
This zone is comprised of mountains that run from the north of the Sino-Vietnamese border to the west of Thanh Hoa Province. This magnificent mountain range is nationally known for its resort town of Sapa in Lao Cai Province, which is perched 1,500 meters above sea level. Several ethnic groups, such as the H'mong, Dao, Kinh, Tay, Giay, Hoa, and Xa Pho, still reside in this region.
The northwestern zone is also famous for the historical site of Dien Bien Phu and Fansipan Mountain, which measures 3,143 meters above sea level at the peak.



The North Truong Son Zone
This zone runs from the western part of Thanh Hoa Province to the Quang Nam-Da Nang Mountains. This region is known locally for its picturesque Phong Nha Grotto and its two breathtaking passes, the Ngang Pass and the Hai Van Pass. It is also known worldwide for being the location of the legendary Ho Chi Minh Trail constructed during the second great resistance war.


The South Truong Son Zone
This zone is located to the west of the south central coast provinces. Behind these huge mountains is a vast area of red soil known locally as "Tay Nguyen" (the Central Highlands). There are numerous legendary accounts of the flora and fauna and of the lives of several different ethnic minorities living in the Central Highlands. Dalat, established during the 19th century, is a popular resort town in this part of Vietnam.
Vietnam has two major deltas, including the Red River Delta in the North and the Mekong River Delta in the South.

The Red River Delta, or Northern Delta
This region stretches for 15,000 sq.km. Over time, deposits of alluvium carried from the Red River and Thai Binh River have accumulated to form the delta. The ancient Viet people settled at the junction of the two rivers . At that time, the wet rice civilization was established

The Mekong River Delta, or Southern Delta
This region is approximately 40,000 sq. km. The land is very fertile and has favorable climate conditions for agriculture. As a result, it is the largest rice growing region in Vietnam.

Anything else you need to know wiseguy:-)

Just let me know.

What an amazing tool this internet!

I found that EXACT tidbit of info too!

Read it closely now King... Where it describes the southern lowland area near the Mekong delta. (the ONLY area which borders the Gulf of Thailand) Key word: LOWLAND

The mountains are INLAND, away from the coast.

Believe it or not, I actually DO know a little about the region.

Let's all keep arguing until we are in total agreement on Vietnam. Then we can tackle something easy like abortion.

4salt,

You are stuck in Vietnam proper again. The Soviet influence via the Khmer included cambodia. Now look abck at the map. And now look back at what I said.
"invasion towards the gulf of Thailand. Such a gulf was nearly perfect strategically because it has very deep waters, granite coastline perfect for underground structures for secret manufacturing and testing, high and jagged mountains which are very easy to defend and difficult to navigate by both infantry, vehicle and most aircraft alike making enemy invasion from land very difficult. Best of all, the gulf has a very narrow choke point that has visibility from one point to the other which makes invasion from the sea just as suicidal"

Did I say Vietnam proper anywhere in there?

well then get off it!

Ok, I'm sorry Dave and King (and everyone else). Guess I got a little too much free time on my hands today.