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#273920 - 10/25/04 04:14 PM Can a Catholic vote for Kerry and be in good standing with the Church?
Rory Bellows Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 1459
Loc: Third stone from the sun
Is it OK for a Catholic to vote for Kerry?


YOUR ROLE AS A CATHOLIC VOTER
=================================
http://www.catholic.com/library/voters_guide.asp
=================================

Catholics have a moral obligation to promote the common good through the exercise of their voting privileges (cf. CCC 2240). It is not just civil authorities who have responsibility for a country. "Service of the common good require[s] citizens to fulfill their roles in the life of the political community" (CCC 2239). This means citizens should participate in the political process at the ballot box.

But voting cannot be arbitrary. "A well-formed Christian conscience does not permit one to vote for a political program or an individual law that contradicts the fundamental contents of faith and morals" (CPL 4). A citizen's vote most often means voting for a candidate who will be the one directly voting on laws or programs. But being one step removed from law-making doesn't let citizens off the hook, since morality requires that we avoid doing evil to the greatest extent possible, even indirectly.

Some things always are wrong, and no one may deliberately vote in favor of them. Legislators, who have a direct vote, may not support these evils in legislation or programs. Citizens support these evils indirectly if they vote in favor of candidates who propose to advance them. Thus, to the greatest extent possible, Catholics must avoid voting for any candidate who intends to support programs or laws that are intrinsically evil. When all of the candidates endorse morally harmful policies, citizens must vote in a way that will limit the harm likely to be done.


THE FIVE NON-NEGOTIABLE ISSUES


These five current issues concern actions that are intrinsically evil and must never be promoted by the law. Intrinsically evil actions are those which fundamentally conflict with the moral law and can never be deliberately performed under any circumstances. It is a serious sin to deliberately endorse or promote any of these actions, and no candidate who really wants to advance the common good will support any action contrary to the non-negotiable principles involved in these issues.

1. Abortion

The Church teaches that, regarding a law permitting abortions, it is "never licit to obey it, or to take part in a propaganda campaign in favor of such a law, or to vote for it" (EV 73). Abortion is the intentional and direct killing of an innocent human being, and therefore it is a form of homicide.

The unborn child is always an innocent party, and no law may permit the taking of his life. Even when a child is conceived through rape or incest, the fault is not the child's, who should not suffer death for others' sins.

2. Euthanasia

Often disguised by the name "mercy killing," euthanasia also is a form of homicide. No person has a right to take his own life, and no one has the right to take the life of any innocent person.

In euthanasia, the ill or elderly are killed, by action or omission, out of a misplaced sense of compassion, but true compassion cannot include intentionally doing something intrinsically evil to another person (cf. EV 73).

3. Embryonic Stem Cell Research

Human embryos are human beings. "Respect for the dignity of the human being excludes all experimental manipulation or exploitation of the human embryo" (CRF 4b).

Recent scientific advances show that often medical treatments that researchers hope to develop from experimentation on embryonic stem cells can be developed by using adult stem cells instead. Adult stem cells can be obtained without doing harm to the adults from whom they come. Thus there is no valid medical argument in favor of using embryonic stem cells. And even if there were benefits to be had from such experiments, they would not justify destroying innocent embryonic humans.

4. Human Cloning

"Attempts . . . for obtaining a human being without any connection with sexuality through 'twin fission,' cloning, or parthenogenesis are to be considered contrary to the moral law, since they are in opposition to the dignity both of human procreation and of the conjugal union" (RHL I:6).

Human cloning also involves abortion because the "rejected" or "unsuccessful" embryonic clones are destroyed, yet each clone is a human being.

5. Homosexual "Marriage"

True marriage is the union of one man and one woman. Legal recognition of any other union as "marriage" undermines true marriage, and legal recognition of homosexual unions actually does homosexual persons a disfavor by encouraging them to persist in what is an objectively immoral arrangement.

"When legislation in favor of the recognition of homosexual unions is proposed for the first time in a legislative assembly, the Catholic lawmaker has a moral duty to express his opposition clearly and publicly and to vote against it. To vote in favor of a law so harmful to the common good is gravely immoral" (UHP 10).


WHICH POLITICAL OFFICES SHOULD I WORRY ABOUT?


Laws are passed by the legislature, enforced by the executive branch, and interpreted by the judiciary. This means you should scrutinize any candidate for the legislature, anyone running for an executive office, and anyone nominated for the bench. This is true not only at the national level but also at the state and local levels.

True, the lesser the office, the less likely the office holder will take up certain issues. Your city council, for example, perhaps never will take up the issue of human cloning but may take up issues connected with abortion clinics. It is important that you evaluate candidates in light of each non-negotiable moral issue that will come before them in the offices they are seeking.

Few people achieve high office without first holding a lower office. Some people become congressional representatives, senators, or presidents without having been elected to a lesser office. But most representatives, senators, and presidents started their political careers at the local level. The same is true for state lawmakers. Most of them began on city councils and school boards and worked their way up the political ladder.

Tomorrow's candidates for higher offices will come mainly from today's candidates for lower offices. It is therefore prudent to apply comparable standards to local candidates. One should seek to elect to lower offices candidates who support Christian morality so that they will have a greater ability to be elected to higher offices where their moral stances may come directly into play.


HOW TO DETERMINE A CANDIDATE'S POSITION


1. The higher the office, the easier this will be. Congressional representatives and senators, for example, repeatedly have seen these issues come before them and so have taken positions on them. Often the same can be said at the state level. In either case, learning a candidate's position can be as easy as reading newspaper or magazine articles, looking up his views on the Internet, or studying one of the many printed candidate surveys that are distributed at election time.

2. It often is more difficult to learn the views of candidates for local offices because few of them have an opportunity to consider legislation on such things as abortion, cloning, and the sanctity of marriage. But these candidates, being local, often can be contacted directly or have local campaign offices that will explain their positions.

3. If you cannot determine a candidate's views by other means, do not hesitate to write directly to the candidate, asking for his position on the issues covered above.


HOW NOT TO VOTE


1. Do not just vote based on your political party affiliation, your earlier voting habits, or your family's voting tradition. Years ago, these may have been trustworthy ways to determine whom to vote for, but today they are often not reliable. You need to look at the stands each candidate takes. This means that you may end up casting votes for candidates from more than one party.

2. Do not cast your vote based on candidates' appearance, personality, or "media savvy." Some attractive, engaging, and "sound-bite-capable" candidates endorse intrinsic evils, while other candidates, who may be plain-looking, uninspiring, and ill at ease in front of cameras, endorse legislation in accord with basic Christian principles.

3. Do not vote for candidates simply because they declare themselves to be Catholic. Unfortunately, many self-described Catholic candidates reject basic Catholic moral teaching.

4. Do not choose among candidates based on "What's in it for me?" Make your decision based on which candidates seem most likely to promote the common good, even if you will not benefit directly or immediately from the legislation they propose.

5. Do not vote for candidates who are right on lesser issues but who will vote wrongly on key moral issues. One candidate may have a record of voting in line with Catholic values except, say, for euthanasia. Such a voting record is a clear signal that the candidate should not be chosen by a Catholic voter, unless the other candidates have voting records even less in accord with these moral norms.


HOW TO VOTE


1. For each office, first determine how each candidate stands on each of the issues that will come before him and involve non-negotiable principles.

2. Rank the candidates according to how well their positions align with these non-negotiable moral principles.

3. Give preference to candidates who do not propose positions that contradict these principles.

4. Where ever candidate endorses positions contrary to non-negotiable principles, choose the candidate likely to do the least harm. If several are equal, evaluate them based on their views on other, lesser issues.

5. Remember that your vote today may affect the offices a candidate later achieves
_________________________
"Yes, I would support raising taxes"--Kanektok Kid

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#273921 - 10/25/04 05:36 PM Re: Can a Catholic vote for Kerry and be in good standing with the Church?
John Lee Hookum Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/12/01
Posts: 2453
Loc: Area 51
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 17:04:08 -0000
Subject:FREEDOM FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE


FREEDOM FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE

No nation with George W. Bush as President will ever be free because
he has marginalized our civil rights, induced the Supreme Court to
subvert the electoral process, bankrupted our Treasury and shackled
us with unemployment, debt, inflation - and likely all three, plus
pollution with the potential to unleash a cancer wave in 20-40 years
that affects most American lives. There can be no freedom when a
tyrant who will not discuss or compromise any issue is in the White
House. To lead is one thing, to be decisive another, and to be an
unyielding pig-headed tyrant is quite another.

Of more worth is one humble honest beggar to society and in the sight
of God than the current resident at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

Tyranny in the person of the President has led to a war America did
not need, nor want, but was forced to fight because he failed to
defend our borders from terrorist plots that occured on his watch and
he pushed for immediate war without delay. Forgiving though they are,
even the American People do not reward such incompetence and
opportunism with another roll at monarchial tyranny.

In regards to his care and concern in the deployment of our brave and
selfless young men and women overseas, and his disdain for those from
different mainstream American political persuasions, perhaps the
words of Revolutionary War Patriot Thomas Paine say it best: "Even
brutes do not devour their young, nor savages make war upon their own
families."

The Birthday of Freedom is at hand, when the President is dealt the
hand he earned in 2000 and earns again in 2004 due to his laborious
acts of deception: rejection by the American People at the Ballot Box.

The spirit of Democracy is alive and well in the hearts, minds, and
hopes of America. Let Freedom ring throughout the land in a new era
of a Democratic Republic where the voices of all Americans are heard
and heeded in national decisions that affect us all. Let Election Day
be Independence Day from tyrants posing as presidents, from Cromwells
fomenting a storm of totalitarianism against the free will of the
American People. John Kerry may not be perfect, but he listens to all
sides, he reasons with a good mind and stout heart, and he
compromises when necessary or wise - all of which is a far better
choice for a nation that yearns to be free from the iron fist that
governs as self-righteous royalty
_________________________

Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of
Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter
of the gods.

-- Albert Einstein



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#273922 - 10/25/04 05:46 PM Re: Can a Catholic vote for Kerry and be in good standing with the Church?
Somethingsmellsf Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 12/15/02
Posts: 4000
Loc: Ahhhhh, damn dog!
I would think that the question would be how can a catholic vote for Bouche, when he has sent so many american men and women to their deaths, with no plan in sight to end this disaster and without any remorse..........................Fishy.
_________________________
NRA Life member

The idea of a middle class life is slowly drifting away as each and every day we realize that our nation is becoming more of a corporatacracy.

I think name-calling is the right way to handle this one/Dan S

We're here from the WDFW and we're here to help--Uhh Ohh!




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#273924 - 10/25/04 05:59 PM Re: Can a Catholic vote for Kerry and be in good standing with the Church?
Theking Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 4756
Loc: The right side of the line
Well I guess that shoots ol Kerry in the foot.

Like all religions you have to make a choice. Since he is so religous by his owns words I suppose he will conceed the race? Naw he will squirm and worm his way around it like he has done with everything in his life.
_________________________
Liberalism is a mental illness!

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#273925 - 10/25/04 06:21 PM Re: Can a Catholic vote for Kerry and be in good standing with the Church?
goharley Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/27/02
Posts: 3188
Loc: U.S. Army
Kinda blows it for ol' Bushy, too. The Pope told him invading Iraq was not the right thing to do, but he did it anyway.

Guess the Catholics have no choice but Nader, Krusty.
_________________________
Tent makers for Christie, 2016.

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#273926 - 10/25/04 06:43 PM Re: Can a Catholic vote for Kerry and be in good standing with the Church?
Theking Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 4756
Loc: The right side of the line
Knock ,Knock there Harley anything in that skull? Bush is not Catholic. The pope only counts if you are a catlicker then he is the closest thing to god. Plenty of issues around thast notion as well. If Kerry was Muslim they would cut off his head for betraying Allah.
_________________________
Liberalism is a mental illness!

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#273927 - 10/25/04 08:28 PM Re: Can a Catholic vote for Kerry and be in good standing with the Church?
grandpa Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 08/18/02
Posts: 1714
Loc: brier,wa
The answer to the question in one word is no...

The long answer would be yes IF he sought advise and an endorsement from one of the many Catholic poobas who is homosexual or a child molestor...
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#273928 - 10/26/04 02:28 AM Re: Can a Catholic vote for Kerry and be in good standing with the Church?
Angg Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 12/06/03
Posts: 113
Perhaps the Catholics welcome the slaughter of innocent men, women and children if they can't "convert" them to Catholicism? Protect unborn babies but go kill a muslim child?

Spreading war and hatred around the globe is NOT something Jesus Christ would have

NO! Look at the history and see how many were killed that refused to convert to the Muslim religion. KILLED,not allowed to move to other areas, murdered- if they did not accept the religion.

At least I know my Catholic religion will not make me turn and tell me to kill anyone else because they do not comply to my beliefs, and I am also allowed my personal justice with my LORD.


Think about this when Muslims say they must kill you. How dare you say the Cathoilics are worse people. They are judgemental, biased, possibly self serving, but at least our leader tries to promote peace. He has even traveled to the war zone to try to promote peace. wHere is the Muslim leader denouncing the autrocities!!!

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#273929 - 10/26/04 03:29 AM Re: Can a Catholic vote for Kerry and be in good standing with the Church?
CedarR Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 08/04/99
Posts: 1431
Loc: Olympia, WA
Bill Press, political analyst for MSNBC and a Catholic, had a column in yesterdays KingCoJournal, on this subject. He concluded the column by saying, "As a Catholic, I will never let any politician tell me how to worship. As an American, I will never let any priest tell me how to vote." Right words, right place, right time...

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#273930 - 10/26/04 05:25 AM Re: Can a Catholic vote for Kerry and be in good standing with the Church?
Arklier Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 05/30/01
Posts: 400
Quote:

NO! Look at the history and see how many were killed that refused to convert to the Muslim religion. KILLED,not allowed to move to other areas, murdered- if they did not accept the religion.

At least I know my Catholic religion will not make me turn and tell me to kill anyone else because they do not comply to my beliefs, and I am also allowed my personal justice with my LORD.

You don't know much about Christian/Catholic religion in history, do you? For the most part, before the Reformation, all Christians were Catholics.

Ever heard of 'the inquisition' and how they treated 'heretics'? The Spanish inquisition was the most famous and longest, but there were plenty in other countries too. A heretic was anyone who wasn't a Christian, or was *accused* of not being a Christian. This included 'witches'. Note that the burden of proof was a lot less in those days. Someone could be accused with no proof whatsoever other than 'the victim' behaving strangely, and without even knowing their accuser (this is the reason why the justice system now states that the accuser must face the accused). There was a financial motivation for the process too. If the person confessed to being a heretic, then when they died (and being put to death was almost always the punishment for heresy), then the Church and the government would split their belongings, not the person's rightful heirs. After they were accused, the inquisitors would beat and torture them to make them 'confess' and give the names of others so the cycle would repeat itself. There wasn't a lot of choice. The accused was either tortured until they died (but the Church and government didn't get squat), or they confessed. Confessing didn't bring much relief, either. With enough torture, people will confess to anything, true or not, to make it stop. After the confession (if the person wasn't killed during the torture), they were then killed through various painful methods. Burning at the stake was the most popular, though hanging, drowning, being drawn and quartered, and pressing them to death with weights on the chest were also used. While there are no exact numbers, it's estimated that more than 500,000 people were killed in this manner in Europe alone, either through being accused of being heretics, or witches, or werewolves, or other supernatural beings.

So the Christians can hardly claim historical moral superiority over the Muslims.

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#273931 - 10/26/04 08:48 AM Re: Can a Catholic vote for Kerry and be in good standing with the Church?
grandpa Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 08/18/02
Posts: 1714
Loc: brier,wa
Nothing to do with superiority in the context of who kills who for what reason. The problem is that the whole world and its religions has progressed in the last 1000 years...The Muslims have not...Their current religion calls on all of them to kill the infidels...the crusaders...those who won't convert to Islam. That is a truly dangerous religion practiced by dangerous people. I don't think a Muslim could vote for either candidate because their religion tells them to kill both of them....beheading is the most effective way too.

I wouldn't spend a whole lot of time worrying about Catholics but I would spend alot of time worrying about Muslims.
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#273933 - 10/26/04 11:06 AM Re: Can a Catholic vote for Kerry and be in good standing with the Church?
Theking Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 4756
Loc: The right side of the line
Talking about what Christains, muslims did 100's of years ago has what bearing on todays events? Lets compre religions in 2004. if a Christian or Jew beheaded a few Muslims on the NBC nightly news what would be the worlds reaction let alone the reaction of fellow Jews or Christians. Did we see that same reaction from the Muslim world in the past year? How about the rest of the world? Belonging to any group or religion or not requires certain rules being followed as a requirement. The Catholic church has certain requirements good or bad it matters not they are requirements none the less. You do not get to pick and choose. This is a bisic issue with people. They want to say they belong but choose which rules they want to follow.
_________________________
Liberalism is a mental illness!

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#273935 - 10/26/04 12:30 PM Re: Can a Catholic vote for Kerry and be in good standing with the Church?
h2o Offline
Carcass

Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 2449
Loc: Portland
dead is dead

gruesomely dead is just as dead as lethal injection dead, one just leaves a much more photogenic corpse.

any other difference is purely semantic.

now as for the question....

...of course you can. In fact alot of catholics I know consider questioning the churches policies the duty of a good catholic because, if you take a good look at history the church has been wrong about this type of thing over and over again.

Can methodists still hate gays and be in good standing with THEIR church? Didn't they just vote to allow gay pastors within their ranks?

Another ridiculous question which will have absolutely no bearing on this election....

...but good luck trying!
_________________________
"Christmas is an American holiday." - micropterus101

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#273936 - 10/26/04 12:52 PM Re: Can a Catholic vote for Kerry and be in good standing with the Church?
kjackson Offline
Spawner

Registered: 06/12/01
Posts: 557
Loc: Port Townend, WA
Can Catholics vote for Kerry with a clear conscience? That's a question of concern to Catholics and their religious leaders but of small consequence to the rest of us.

However, I did see an article in the NY Times that said certain dioceses (diocesi?) would require confession of anyone who sinned (the article's wording) by voting for a proponent of abortion.

That's over the top, in my opinion. Granted Kerry may not be a very good Catholic (divorced, a liar, pro-abortion), the church shouldn't try to influence voting by making the choice a sin. It brings back fuzzy memories of JFK's election (the real one, not the wannabe) where folks were sure the Catholic church was pushing its members to elect Kennedy.

My $.02,

Keith

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#273937 - 10/26/04 01:04 PM Re: Can a Catholic vote for Kerry and be in good standing with the Church?
PhishPhreak Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 06/19/01
Posts: 1066
Loc: North Bend, WA
"dead is dead"

Yeah, right. Some brave talk there.

If you were kidnapped by terrorists and they gave you a choice:

1) Shot in the head and killed instantly, or

2) Put in front of a camera, have a bunch of mulslim extremists screaming and shouting around you for several minutes explaining why they are going to kill you while you sit defenseless and begging for you life. Then they grab your hair and start sawing your neck from the back to the front. You scream like an animal with each cut until your throat fills with blood and you just gurgle as you finally die. Watch the Nick Berg video if you don't think this is what happens...

Dead is dead... right....

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#273938 - 10/26/04 04:40 PM Re: Can a Catholic vote for Kerry and be in good standing with the Church?
h2o Offline
Carcass

Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 2449
Loc: Portland
first of all, do you really think terrorists would be asking questions like 'how would you like to die?'

ummmmm...no.

strapped to the electric chair or beheaded on camera your fate is still the same, the difference is in YOUR perception of the death....the perception of those that are still alive is all there is. To the dead guy, it really doesn't matter a whole lot now does it?
_________________________
"Christmas is an American holiday." - micropterus101

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#273939 - 10/26/04 04:50 PM Re: Can a Catholic vote for Kerry and be in good standing with the Church?
B-RUN STEELY Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 02/08/00
Posts: 3233
Loc: IDAHO
I believe in God... I also know that the people who wrote the Bible knew for a fact that the earth was flat.. as a board... with an edge you could fall off of... Yea, I want to base everything I believe off that type of data...
_________________________
Clearwater/Salmon Super Freak

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#273940 - 10/26/04 05:15 PM Re: Can a Catholic vote for Kerry and be in good standing with the Church?
PhishPhreak Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 06/19/01
Posts: 1066
Loc: North Bend, WA
LOL. Nice dodge there H20.

B-Run: what a cop-out. There are a few OT verses that have references to the 'ends of the earth' and such, but to claim that all the men involved in helping write the God inspired Bible believed the earth was flat just shows you a lack of understanding on the subject.

In fact, some of these same verses can be interpreted as describing the earth as a sphere - just depends on how \ who chooses to interpret a word or 2 from the original texts.

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#273941 - 10/26/04 05:51 PM Re: Can a Catholic vote for Kerry and be in good standing with the Church?
B-RUN STEELY Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 02/08/00
Posts: 3233
Loc: IDAHO
I guess my Point is.... the persons who wrote that understood little. I guess the story of Jonah really happened ( guy gets ate by whale and it swims around with him in its stomach for 3 days and spits him out ) .. or Maybe Sol's wife really did turn into a pillar of salt ??? The list goes on forever.. I view it as a book of storys written as examples rather than actual fact.... Its people who think that its word for word fact, and base their lives off it that sort of worry me. Thats a cop out in my book.
_________________________
Clearwater/Salmon Super Freak

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#273942 - 10/26/04 06:39 PM Re: Can a Catholic vote for Kerry and be in good standing with the Church?
Theking Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 4756
Loc: The right side of the line
I guess allegory is a term with a meaning you do not understand. How much of the bible have you read and how much bible study have you done to base your conclusions on. I bet you know more about what sitcoms are on TV this week than you really honestly know about the bible. I suppose the fact that most of science is theory is lost on you as well making most of what we see not valid?
_________________________
Liberalism is a mental illness!

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