well until the admin makes up its mind on why we are there I'll go with the most likely...occams razor and all that. It sure as hell aint for wmds. But your right, maybe its not for halliburton, maybe its the secret oil pipeline

Haliburton. oil , Pipleines, NWO, zionist plot take your pick.

Show me where more than two people know a seceret and it is kept for very long. Just not happen and is less likely to happen where politics and moeny are involved. Husbands and wives and friends,families will sell each other out over a few bucks. Yet we are to believe that all of the elements involved to pull off a Haliburton stock run up are going to be kept secert? If it was true someone has already been screwed or at least feels screwed and would be talking. One thing all the head shrinkers will tell you is that behavior is not isolated. GW and all his cronies would have had to of shown signs over the years that they where capable of this. There are a lot easier ways of making money than taking a country to war.

I dont think they've kept it a secret at all. They simply said we are awarding the contracts to our good friends, no one else may bid on them, the rest of the world can take a hike, and we dont care what you think about it.

Do I realy think the war is a halliburton money grab? No, not likely. Do I think its for oil? No not entirely. I dont know what the hell its for and it seems your boy dumbya dont either but if looks funny and smells funny and if thats all i got to go on, then Im guesing its for some alterior motive unkown to plebians like myself.

Ultimately i suspect its to gain foothold in the region for future expansion, both in terms of oil and military bases, and if we can make Dicks company a few billion richer in the process why not?

Heres a question for you Kingy. Why not at least open the contracts for bidding, if for no other reason to give some semblance of fairness and propriety?, cause the opposite gives one the distinct impression that cronyism is hard at work.

revenge for Daddy Dumbya is my least favorite of the semi plausible potential reasons for the Iraq mess.

One thing is for sure, they sure worked pretty hard to dupe the american public into beleiving we were in imminent danger from Iraqi wmds which every inspector told us were not there (this is afterall the root f this rove thing) and which ultimately proved not to be there. They must have some motive for this intentional deception and invasion? Shame on the congress for going along with it, including many many democrats....

When i ask myself, what their possible motives could be, the daddy revenge motive, is the least plausible...icing on whatever cake they are baking over there but not the primary motivator.

Again, I suspect porimarily it is the desire to gain serious military foothold in the region

I know its not for the wmds
I know we could care less about their Iraqi freedom
And all evidence points ot no link to 9/11 tho that can never be disproved for certain, only proved and thus far it has not been proven.

Therefor there is some other covert motive (unless Bush is truly insane or stupid, and I'll give him more credit than that)


Who knows? None of us little people thats for sure. Maybe we'll know in 50 years and it'll turn out that Bush was a good guy afterall? hahahaha..yeah um right.

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How much of al Qaeda's leadership has been captured or killed?

October 25, 2004
(http://cfrterrorism.org/home/)

Most terror experts agree with official claims that counterterrorism efforts have substantially depleted al Qaeda's senior ranks.
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Captured

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. A Kuwaiti who is the alleged mastermind of the 9/11 attacks. He is also believed to have personally executed Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl in January 2002. Captured in Pakistan in March 2003.

Abu Zubaida. A Palestinian born in Saudi Arabia, thought to have served as Osama bin Laden's field commander following the death of Mohammed Atef. Captured in Pakistan in March 2002.

Ramzi Binalshibh. A Yemeni national and an alleged coordinator of the September 11 attacks, accused of involvement in attacks on the USS Cole in October 2000 and on a Tunisian synagogue in April 2002.
Captured in Pakistan in September 2002.

Mohammed Haydar Zammar. A Syrian-born German national accused of recruiting several of the 9/11 hijackers. Arrested in Morocco soon after the September 11 attacks.

Ali Abdul Rahman al-Ghamdi. A Saudi described as al Qaeda's top leader in Saudi Arabia and suspected of masterminding a series of bombings in Riyadh in 2003. Surrendered to Saudi authorities in June 2003.

Mohamedou Ould Slahi. A Mauritanian alleged to have played a key role in the recruitment of some of the 9/11 hijackers. Captured by Mauritanian authorities and turned over to the United States in November 2002 on suspicion he plotted to bomb Los Angeles International Airport during the 2000 millennium celebrations.

Omar al-Faruq. A Kuwaiti and an alleged link between al Qaeda and other militant Islamic groups in Southeast Asia. He was arrested in Indonesia in June 2002.

Mohsen F. A Kuwaiti whose full identity is unknown, plotted unsuccesfully to blow up a hotel in the Yemeni capital, Sanaa. Arrested in Kuwait in November 2002.

Hambali, aka Riduan Issamuddin. An Indonesian, reportedly a top strategist for Qaeda-linked Jemaah Islamiya in Southeast Asia. Captured in Thailand in August 2003.

Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri. A Saudi thought to be al Qaeda's chief of operations in the Persian Gulf. Captured in the United Arab Emirates in November 2002.

Ahmed Khalfan Ghailani. A Tanzanian suspected in the 1998 bombings of the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. Captured in Pakistan in July 2004.

Abu Issa al-Hindi. A British national born in India, allegedly a central planner of detailed reconnaissance of U.S. financial institutions. Captured in Britain in August 2004.

Zacarias Moussaoui. A French citizen of Moroccan origin, thought by U.S. officials to be the "20th 9/11 hijacker." Reportedly prevented from participating in the September 11 attacks because he was in custody in Minnesota on an immigration violation.

Mounir al-Motassadek. A Moroccan arrested in Hamburg in November 2001, the only person to have been convicted of a crime connected to the 9/11 attacks. In 2004, Germany's Supreme Court threw out the verdict. Currently being retried.

Richard Reid. British-born, sentenced to life in prison in January 2003 for trying to blow up an airliner with explosives hidden in his shoes.

Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri. A Saudi believed to have been head of Qaeda operations in the Persian Gulf and linked to the August 1998 U.S. embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania. Sentenced to death by a Yemeni court in September 2004 for the bomb attack on the USS Cole, which killed 17 U.S. sailors in October 2000. Currently in U.S. custody.

Believed dead

Amjad Farooqi. A Pakistani, allegedly helped organize two failed assassination attempts on Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf and participated in the abduction and murder of Daniel Pearl. Reportedly killed by Pakistani security forces in September 2004.

Mohammed Atef. An Egyptian believed to have been al Qaeda's senior field commander. According to the Pentagon, he was killed in Afghanistan in November 2001.

Ali Qaed Senyan al-Harthi. A Yemeni suspected of involvement in the bombing of the USS Cole. Believed to have been killed in a U.S. counterterrorist operation in Yemen in November 2002.

Abu Hazim al-Shair. A Yemeni and former bin Laden bodyguard thought to have been al Qaeda's chief of operations for the Gulf States and a key planner of the May 2003 bombings of Western residential compounds in Saudi Arabia. Reportedly killed in Riyadh by Saudi security forces in March 2004.

where's osama? "dead or alive!"?


*whispers into Rory's ear "dead or alive!"

why did he divert the funds and troops dedicated by congress for catching osama to Iraq?
why? why? why?

I dont know either...im askin.

all those captured, and yet they function and attacked London only last week. The war on terror is going well? I know theres good people working hard on it and all..Dumbya told me so.

Chives,

I only posted the known (as of 10/04) al Qaeda's leadership (those responsible for planning and financing 9/11) to be dead or captured from the cfrterrorism.org website. I thought you were convinced OBL was dead anyway? I don't have any documented proof of that so I didn't post it as fact.

Do you still think all the trouble in the Middle East started 50 years ago? Any other pearls of wisdom or insight in to the history of the region you'ld care to share?

No more pearls from me. PLease by all means educate me on the history of that region and explain our policy there. It certainly appears to have been a smashing success...Im eager to learn how it got this way, and why what we are doing now is making it even better.

I dont mind you changing the subject if i learn something.

well i never said i thought Osama was dead. Rory is thinkin of someone else. i was the one who said i dont beleive we are realy looking for him, and i beleive Theking brought up 50 years as a reference point for the mid east.
I dont deny Im largely ignorant of history beyond that there. i looked into that Isaac and Ishmael thing and couldnt make head nors tail of the religious babble.

Back on Topic, Rove is a dirty traitor and worse than Osama. Face it the guy lashed out at wilson cause he wouldnt go along with your rush to war scheme, now he's busted...have fun squirming.

Yeah, like al Qaeda doesn't have a promotion system. :rolleyes:

"I dont deny Im largely ignorant of history beyond that there"

Whats really funny is the liberal drones here have been cheering you on and agreeing with you.

What's refreshing is that he admits it, unlike the neocon evangelicals here.

From one that thinks the historic boundaries of the Ottoman empire are equal to those of modern Turkey. In spite of reality libs belive what they want to believe.

Someone needs to wash their bubble again and learn to thoroughly read. Why is it neocons have so much trouble understanding simple English? I try typing as slow as possible, but they still don't get it.

Maibee i nede more airors in my centances lik theres.

And by the way, the historic boundries of the Ottoman Empire have been reduced to what is now known as modern day Turkey as so clearly pointed out in the link Elvis provided.

TheKing and Rory,

here is the quote from TheKing, which Rory seems to attribute to me, and which (after Rory slammed me for this quote) prompted my admission that I dont know much about the history of the middle east beyond the past 50 years.

and Rory responding to (and changing the subject!) a post by me:
Again by all means Im eager to learn about it, and i did some reserarch into the issues prior to the last fifty years you brought up, on my own..i found out very little.....a buncha who-haw about Ismael and Isaac.

So to recap, you slam me for something someone else says. Then when i take the initiative to investigate your ideas and ask you about them, suddenly that is grounds for refuting all my views?

History is important to take into context, no doubt, but I beleive I currently have enough evidence before me in the present to make a judgement on our actions there. by all means tho enlighten me furhter if you can or are willing.

Common tactic from the right seems to be change the subject, when you are busted.....seems apt here. My lack of knowledge of Mid eastern history has what to do with Rove leaking info again?

Gnarley,

"historic boundries of the Ottoman Empire have been reduced " Who gives a shait? Binny and the boys care about the historic boundry.

Chives,

If one was to be historically accurate the confilct stems from Issac and Ishmael the parents of judism and Islam over 4000 years ago. A%0 years ago marks the modern rebirth of the Islamic crusade to drive the infidels from the traditional Islamic holy lands. The founders of this modern movement taught Osama and all the other "radical" Islamist of today.

BTW I heard a new word yesterday, Islamophobic. The BBC is using it. I wonder if it is like Homophobe? MEaning if you are really Islamophobic it is because you really have Islamic tenancies. Wait wait that would be a linear though and that is impossible for the left

------------------------------------------------------------

What you refer to as, "who-haw" is at the very core of the conflict between Muslims and Jews--I can assure you that even though the conflict started over 5,000 years ago the decendents of Abraham's two sons give a lot more credence to it than that.

I'm sorry if I mistakenly assumed you thought OBL was dead (all the lib's voices kind of melt in to one after a while) my bad.

When you make statements like, " Rove is a dirty traitor and worse than Osama"---I don't know whether to laugh, cry or just feel sorry for you.

If you honestly believe that I doubt any polite discourse or exchange of ideas is going to help.

the 'worse than Osama' part was a joke in refernce to AuntyM's thread. My sarcasm doesnt travel well over the net.....I often forget that. I dont believe there is ANYONE worse than Osama, which is why Im upset we dont seem to care about capturing him. Im not for a moment gonna pretend that if we captured Osama (or revealed he is dead for the conspiracy crew) terrorism would poof go away instantly but It would be helpful, afterall your president did say he would get him dead or alive, but then he's said ALOT of things that he hasnt followed thru on. Worst president ever.

Now thats all settled (I'll look further into Ischmael and Isaac later, tho if their upset about an infidels interpretation of holy scripture, their more off their rocker than i had even imagined) back to Rove. Is he a traitor? Not technically, unless you beleive Bush policy is in itself treasonous. Its certainly an upsetting situation however. Its troubling that the rush to present a case for wmds would yeild such flagrant and petty political backstabbing and coverup...dont look good at all. "lets coerce these folks into providing us with an excuse to invade!" is not attractive.

"Its troubling that the rush to present a case for wmds would yeild such flagrant and petty political backstabbing and coverup...dont look good at all. "lets coerce these folks into providing us with an excuse to invade!" is not attractive."


Lets walk in another mans shoes for a minute there Chively.

Lets get our imaginantions out and work with a similar scenario.


Lets say where you live there is a known level 3 Violent and sadistic sex offender from another neighborhood coming to your neighborhood and raping children. He leads a ring of people that are known to be targeting kids. You know his name where he used to live. The police are looking for him.
Your entire family and all your friends familes live in your neighbor hood. You feel it is your responsiblity is to protect your children and hopefully the other kids in the neighborhood.
The police are pretty sure they are on the trail of the sex offender but have no idea if and when they will catch him. Now you also have another level 3 sex offender named Joseph Duncan living in a near by neighborhood. He has attacked several kids in the past. He is known to be curently paying other people to attack and rape kids in even another neighborhood. You have information from a variety of sources that Duncan intends to do your family harm given the opportunity. You go to the police and the other neighborhoods and ask for help dealing with this guy. They say no thanks it is none of our business and besides he is a great customer of ours. The police say we have to wait until we can prove that he has commited a crime against you specifically. Even though he has paid people to attack other families in another neighbor hood who cares? Duncan does several TV interviews and calls you out saying you are a coward and he will kill you and your whole family given the opportunity. Even though there is direct evidence that he has raped and tortured his own children they will do nothing. What would you do ? Would you continue to chase after the first guy and ignore Duncan because he has not actually done anything to you yet. Then turn your house into a fortress and hope that Joseph Duncan stays away? How would you feel if you did nothing and Duncan raped one of your kids?

It took me a while to understand your analogy there Kingy cause I thought we were talking about Rove. Ok, now I see it as an analogy intended to explain why we went into Iraq instead of going after Osama.

Your analogy fails for me, so I will adjust it slightly to better reflect the situation as I see it...keep in mind i was there living and working in the shadows of the wtc when it was bombed.

To use your analogy as a base:
Imagine if you will that a level three sex offender rapes and kills your children on your front porch while you watch helplessly.(sorry but that is what osama did to me and NYC and america, he wasnt just planning to attack he did, and with deadly success). Your Boss just happens to be friends with this guys family, but nonetheless promises to bring him to justice "dead or alive".
Now suppose there is another level three sex offender in the neighborhood next door.
Do you tell the police, please stop looking for the person who killed and raped my children on my own doorstep and go get this other guy who might be planning to rape my children from a million miles away with a fictitious dick instead?

Your Boss thinks its a great idea and says he never gives your childrens murderer much thought. He basically lays off the police looking for your childs murderer then hires his buddys company with your tax dollars to go look for a potential molestor three neighborhoods down instead despite his promises.

If you say anything about it, your neighbors accuse you of loving sex molestors.

Meanwhile the graves of your raped and murdered children haunt you daily, as more graves fill up with your neighbors children searching for the molestor three neighborhoods away who may or may not have attacked your kids, while the one who DID attack your kids laughs.