So a buddy and me were discussing native and hatchery steelhead and he basically says since we are producing hatchery fish he doesn't care how many actual natives are left. He says "they're the same fish anyway". Which i guess technically is true because the hatchery fish share genetics from there native ancestors. Yet over the years hasn't there been slight changes in the genetics of hatchery fish also? I don't know enough about genetics and biology to make much of an argument but I figured some of you may know a thing or two about it. Please chime in if I'm not being to vague here.

Kind of a lame first post, I know

Thanks for your input,

Drew

Here's a link to get you started on becoming more educated about this topic. There are other threads as well. I'll see what I can dredge up.

http://www.piscatorialpursuits.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/416979/

I can't wait to hear Todd take a crack at this one.

JD

Its obvious hatchery steelhead are superior to wild. The hatchery fish have to swim upstream with no adipose fins, which make the trip very difficult. Wild fish have no such handicap. Therefore weak and scrawny wild fish can still make it to the spawning grounds, but only the biggest strongest hatchery fish can do so.

+1

Just wondering if there is sarcasm in that quote?? Im in a fish biology class right now and the prof just got through explaining that the adipose fin has very little impact on the fish. There is a thought that it has to do with reproduction... bigger is better. If you could elaborate I would appreciate learning more about it.

thanks
Chris

There was more than a touch of sarcasm in Vedder's comment.

Sg

Steeliedrew,

There are countless threads on this forum that go into a lot of detail on this subject. Some provide citations to scientific papers and reports. The upshot scientific conclusion is that your buddy doesn't know his azz from a hole in the ground regarding hatchery and wild steelhead genetics.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

C Fraz:

I was just funing ya.

If some wild and some hatchery steelhead were taken to a fish genetics lab and analyzed could the lab detect, from a purely genetic standpoint, the difference?

ClearCreek

To save you some time, hatchery steelhead are not the same as wilds. Most hatchery steelhead in Washington come from either Skamania River (Summer) or Chambers Creek (Winter). These fish have been bred over and over from the same genetic pool (more or less) for decades. That is a main factor why they are usually smaller than some of their wild cousins, and possibly contributes to the lack of spawning success the hatchery fish are believed to have in the wild. The few wild fish that are left are native to their watersheds for the most part as Steelhead do stray much more than other species. They carry with them the genes of small, average, big, and wall-hangin 30+ lb. hog daddy fish. Hatchery fish are bred for slaughter like cows and should be be eaten. Wild steelhead should be protected better and cherished by anyone who calls themself a Pacific Northwest fisherman or fishery manager.

Oh yeah, hi all! Long time lurker & just finally decided to exist. Bottoms Up!!

Yes they could tell the genetic difference in a lab. They've already done it.

I thought so, but since I dont do too much on this site I second guess myself and figured mayb you knew something my prof didnt.....School tends to melt the brain after 4 years and 100 K later

What then do you call the spawn of a hatchery fish and a wild? What happens when a hatchery fish spawns naturally and it's kids grow up without parents only to learn life the hardway? Do the Hatchery babies grow up to be sissy fish or can they kick some azz like their wild cousins? My guess is the hatchery fish are like ivy league kids put into a dangerous part of a large city. It just eats them alive. Enlighten me....

All hat.... no cattle.

+1

Well kind of........

They will still be wild fish. They'll look like wild fish, act like wild fish, fight like wild fish, but they may not have the reproductive capabilities of 2 100% wild fish by the time they return to a stream to spawn. Will all of them build beautiful textbook redds? Probably not. Some of them will though.

WRONG!

While the progeny of that pairing will hatch as gravel-borne wild fish, the story does NOT end there.

Those wild-borne hybrids co-mingle with truly wild fish.... competing for territory and sustenance, consuming resources within a riverine rearing habitat limited by a fixed carrying capacity. But because of their crappy genes, they fail to make it thru the relentless selection pressures presented at each life stage (fry/smolt/marine subadult/returning spawner), and few if any actually survive to reproductive adulthood.... in most cases, that number is statistically indistinguishable from ZERO!

The hatchery lineage is a genetic dead end unto itself. Allowing it to pollute the population of wild fish thru stray H x W pairings effectively squelches the reproductive potential of the wild fish in the pair. Collectively, the overall effect for the entire escapement is diminished adult recruitment from that brood year. The greater the hatchery stray rate onto the spawning grounds, the greater the reproductive loss.

Hence my crusade that ALL hatchery fish MUST die!