I'd like that...more than one day...

"Nymphing" is float and jig fishing, just using a halfass tool to deliver it...spinning rods work much better.

Fish on...

Todd

So long as your weight isn't tapping along the bottom, i.e., driftfishing, I can accept a little bit of weight on the leader...but there's no way whatsoever that a strike indicator and weighted fly is anything but float and jig fishing with the wrong rod...and dragging a bead on the bottom with a strike indicator is bobber fishing, whether you do it with a spey rod, center pin, spinning rod, or casting rod...

Fish on...

Todd

That's exactly how they do it...

Fish on...

Todd

It's all fishin' to me. If I'm catching fish, I's like it.

I agree...just sayin' it's not flyfishing just because you use a flyrod...

Fish on...

Todd

I watched a guy who had to back troll a K-15 with his spey pride rod so he could catch one. Do I call it fly fishing, no, he didnt even cast. Did the dude have a big old grin on his face and enjoy the hell out of his time on the water; Ya...... So who really cares?
I've watched guys put a fly with a spinner blade, (basically a small rooster tail) on and swing them? fly fishing, probably not, did they catch fish and were happy? Ya.... and even crazier was it's legal in fly only water in AK.
So why does it matter that much to anyone?

Just do what makes you happy in life!

I fish beads once and a while using my center pin. If there are salmon present that are actively spawning, then I will try to match the hatch. Otherwise, I just treat beads as attractors. My selection is dependent on water conditions, and is similar to what I might select if I was drift fishing with corkies. My go to is an 8 mm bead that has been painted with a bright neon orange nail polish that I saw my wife wearing one day. It seems to work well on fresh run steelhead in coastal rivers. However, I usually use duller pink and orange colors on inland steelhead stocks (upper Columbia). Anyhow, that is just my 2 cents. Obviously, there are guys on this board who had a lot more experience fishing beads.

I pretty much agree with you Todd. Interesting though that a very large part of what is now generally perceived as fly fishing wouldn't qualify under the old WA fly only rules. As near as I can tell, it came to WA as Montana trout nymph fishing techniques migrated to the Yakima River trout fishery. Although the Yak isn't fly only, most people fly fish on that river. Next step is guys wanted to take the same nymphing techniques to other waters that included fly only, NF Stilly and Kalama, and maybe fly only lakes chironomid fishing. Used to have to fish chironomids without any lead or bead weight. Anyway, fly only regs changed to permit weighted flies and lead shot on leaders.

Todd, if you accept a "little bit" of weight, then where is the line? My take is that fly fishing isn't as black and white as it once was. Traditionally lead was not a part of fly fishing. To say that a little bit of lead is still fly fishing, but that a lot of lead isn't seems to make the discussion one about shades of grey, instead of a line that demarcates black and white.

OP,

It's all cool with Todd; it's just not fly fishing when it includes weight.

Who cares? I agree as long as we're taking about anyone else. I care about me and what I do. That's not to say I'm elitist. I fish the way I do mainly out of habit and also because I'd rather fly cast without lead than with it. I've done it a bit and fully intend to do it more. One of the main reasons is because I don't do as much trout fishing as I'd like, and from trout fishing we know that if nothing's hatching, nymphing is usually the right thing to do. And I don't have much experience at it, and trout aren't very forgiving of unnatural presentations or late hook sets. It was easier in AK where I could see fish take the bead; a lot harder fishing for unseen brown trout in Utah.

So even if, going along with Todd here, it isn't fly fishing, I'm OK with it because I've been trying to "broaden" my horizons as an angler and become more well rounded. I fish for salmon with herring, and it hasn't occurred to me to even try that with a fly rod. The upshot that makes this discussion interesting for me is that I expect to take more trout fishing trips, and sometimes nymphing will be the only way to get a strike, so that's why I want to learn more about it. Unlike S. salar, I didn't move anywhere to swing for steelhead; I've been doing it most of my life now.

S. salar,

Yeah, swingers fish for players, but I'm still of the persuasion that most if not all undisturbed steelhead are players, unless water conditions are adverse. A potential value of nymphing beads is when you're stuck fishing water that's just getting hammered, and all the players have been hooked or at least disturbed. As steelhead populations continue to decline, and the angler population continues to increase, undisturbed steelhead are going to be increasingly uncommon, unfortunately.

Cobble Cruiser,

Lucky for you to be so easily satisfied! But really, so long as you're catching? I'm assuming you have standards, like hook and line as opposed to including explosives and gillnets. I really like gillnetting; it's more challenging than some think; and it usually does a reasonable job at catching. But it takes a big pile of fish to "make a good day," and then you have this pile of fish to deal with. Part of the attraction of less effective methods of catching fish is that a lot more social benefit can be had from a given number of fish. Just because someone is catching fish doesn't make it all good. I mean, consider the treaty fishermen who are gillnetting a few tote loads of steelhead. Hey, they're catching fish, so it's all good, right? There is value in being harder to satisfy.

Sg

Bead fishing is incredibly controntational, even among fly fishers. On other fly fishing sites, they go on for pages and pages, trying to explain and justify their preferred fishing methods.

I spent a week this past fall fishing BC and the guys I was with refuse to nymph fish or bobber fish as they don't consider it fly fishing. But they will add lead to their leader to get down and cast upstream to achieve a dead drift and pick line as that is considered fly fishing from a traditional sense.

I think Sg's comparison between gear fishing, fly fishing, and gill netting are pretty extreme as the latter is much further away than the former two. I think part of it is the angler's intent; whether for sport or food. At some point in their lives, most ethical anglers arrive to a point that their are comfortable with, fishing wise. Their methods are defined and they accept the terms with which they set for themselves. Often times that is by conceding to the fact that they will acceptingly chose a method more difficult and less productive, usually fly fishing (which can have its own levels of fishing (nymphing, swinging, floating line, dry fly only etc.) knowing they could catch more fish using different methods but would prefer to catch a fish on their own terms. Unfortunatley as fish become more scarce, this practice may well go the way of the dinosaur.

half right, one can use bead eyes on flies, but one cannot put shot on the leader. from the reg book:

"Fly Fishing Only In “Fly Fishing Only” waters,
an angler may use only the following tackle: up
to 2 flies, each with a barbless single-point hook,
not to exceed ½" from point to shank, and a
conventional fly line (other line may be used for
backing or leader if attached to at least 25 feet of
fly line). Anglers may not use fixed spool reels,
bait, or weight attached to the leader or line.
Only knotless nets may be used to land fish."[u][/u]

OP, in case you didn't get it the first few times I said it, I have no problem with bead fishing...it's legal, it's legit, and it's productive as hell...so no worries there. It's just not flyfishing, there's more to it than just using a flyrod to deliver the goods.

Typically it's the hardcore flyfishers, those who refuse to fish in any other way than flyfishing, who react the most terribly when having this discussion...some of them bead fish, and you should hear the contortions they have to go through to justify their technique as flyfishing...I'm surprised they don't all have broken bones and torn ligaments from the twisting and bending!

The hardcore flyfishers who agree with my way of thinking are the most vociferous...they see it as a gross bastardization of 'their' sport...they'd prefer that bead fishermen do it with spinning rods or something so no one confuses the bead fishermen with "flyfishermen"...

After a day of bead fishing, and you've caught a few fish, and someone asks how you got 'em, do you go home and tell people you were flyfishing that day...or bead fishing?

Fish on...

Todd

You thought the last one was long and boring Again, my apologies.

As a preface, everything you/we know about steelhead behavior applies directly to this style of fishing. We are fishing to the same fish under the same range of conditions, but this method in particular has definitely opened my eyes to a few behavioral traits that I wasn’t formerly in touch with. One key difference that I would highlight is that to me it seems as though a much higher percentage of fish will respond to dead drifted bait, an egg pattern/bead especially, than would move to a swung offering be that a spoon, worm, fly, etc. If using the concept of players, a hole with 9 fish in it might have 1 that would move to a swung fly or spoon, 2 or 3 that would eat a dead drifted bait or jig, and 6 that would eat an egg. I use these numbers to loosely illustrate a point, but after a handful of years mixing this beading technique into my toolbox for steelhead, I think the concept at least is close accurate.




A surprisingly long one. It takes a lot of work, but one can actually fish a pretty substantial stretch of water effectively per each cast. Definitely more linear feet of water per cast than swinging because you are fishing as soon as your line is in the water upstream until your line is tight downstream. That having been said, swinging is a far more effective way to cover from near to far. In nymphing, the longer the cast and the farther you try to reach with it, the harder it is to mend and generally the less water you are fishing effectively. That having been said, maintaining a perfect dead drift for your entire cast isn’t necessary, and quite often I am mending and moving line and the terminal tackle to get it running in the zone I want throughout the cast.



That is the million dollar question my good man! External influences aside, the same factors that would lead them to strike anything of a given shape, size, or color over something else. If your bait is in the broad range of what steelhead tend to bite, color, contrast, and movement for starters. A lot of attention is given to the light reflection and/or lack there of in beading. Oddly enough, my best bead is a solid color rather than translucent or opaque like many successful beads. Neutral bouyancy and the weight/density of the bead is super important as well to give the bead natural action as it rolls and bounces along the bottom, catching micro-currents along it’s drift.



My experience has been more or less the same and I agree. Most undisturbed steelhead are fairly un-selective in the bead that they will take, and likewise would have more likely than not taken anything else that was put in front of them. I think the bead shines in situations where steelhead have seen fishing pressure, or in situations where they are less comfortable. Low and clear being the easiest of the latter to define.

Eating and egg is natural, easy, and something that I think is heavily imprinted from a trout’s younger days. Interestingly enough, I have caught (not flossed) all 5 species of pacific salmon on egg patterns, although not with regularity. Eating an egg isn't an act of aggression and it doesn't really seem to involve the predatory instinct at all. It doesn't usually require a lot of effort on the fishes part, and it has nothing to do with territorial issues. Fishing the bead is perhaps the most minimally intrusive presentation I have come across, which if you are fishing to pressured fish that seem to have a case of lockjaw, is a big benefit. Certainly care has to be taken to manage your line and offering in such a way that you don't put the fish down (as can happen with terminal gear that tries to appeal to the more aggressive instincts of the fish), but outside of your line and indicator, it is very rare that you spook or even turn fish off with the bead. In my opinion, this is evidenced by fish eating a bead after having seen perhaps a handful or more presentations of the same or similar pattern, and in many cases, after having been fished to several times with other methods as well.

Quite often I catch fish out of a given stretch of water after having fished through it a a handful of times with different beads. To me, this says that the fish was comfortable, willing to eat, but just hadn't seen something that it wanted or was curious enough to move for. I do not believe that the same fish would have eaten the 14th spoon that it saw just because it was the right color or wobbled just the right way at the right time.



It varies based on a number of personal and environmental factors. Your summary of approaching Sauk/Skagit style rivers sounds very logical and I would say that I would take a similar approach to those rivers, regardless of what rod and gear I was using. Generally I usually fish in two “modes” either searching the water, or working it. If I am in searching mode, I either don't know the river well enough to be confident that I am fishing to fish, or I am uncertain that there are many fish in the system at that point.

Working mode applies when I am confident that there are fish in the system and I know, within a matter of feet, where they are at.

In searching mode with a bead, I carry two rods, each with one of my tried and true favorites on the end of the line. I fish much as you described fishing the Sauk and Skagit, with the difference being I will make one pass per each rod/bead and move on if there are no signs of life.

Working, much the same but I will take switch gear, positions, casting angle, depth/length of leader, amount of weight, etc. and take the time to be sure that any fish in that stretch has had more than one or two looks at a few variations in gear and presentation before I move on.



Yes and no. Small water is far more friendly to fish than larger water, but more important than the size of the river is the likelihood that the piece of water your fishing as at least a fish in it. Obviously the more fish in a given stretch, the better the odds are that one (or more) will bite. Again, I believe a much higher percentage of fish will eat an egg than would take something else.

I have only fished the bead to hatchery fish a few times. As Justin has recently demonstrated, it works just fine, but personally I don't have any perspective for you that has been gained as a result of flogging hatchery terminal zones. The given piece of water doesn't need to be stacked, but I need to be reasonably confident that it has something in it to spend the time to work it over carefully. If I am not, again I am covering lots of water, targeting the places that look promising or that I know hold fish.

[/quote]


On thing that I am convinced of, is that what leads a fish to eat an egg seems to come from a very different place than what would inspire them to chase a fly, spoon, worm, or even eat a dead drifted bait or jig. In some cases, they quite literally can’t refuse it and will go to great lengths to get it. Although, the less they have to work the better!



Nailed it.

I have rambled long enough, and in doing so, haven’t said anything that hasn’t been mentioned at least twice before. All of this is obviously just one perspective and in sharing it, I am not trying to present anything authoritative of course. As I mentioned earlier, beads are just another tool for the toolbox to be used if and you wind up looking for something different.

PS - we haven't even discussed rigging, that is another 2-3 page discussion in and of itself

I tell them I was fishing...and they ate whatever it is was they ate.

Why the need for such distinctions. We are all playing the same game with, in reality, slight variations in gear.

An observation...

On a particularly good hole on the Kispiox this past fall, Cobble Cruiser and I had, in a few passes early on, then a few more in the afternoon, hooked something in the neighborhood of 18 fish out of a stretch of river not 100 feet long.

As you would expect, it started out a house afire, and then we would go thru short stretches of time with no hookups, followed by a few right in a row, followed by increasingly longer stretches of time with no hookups, and less and less 'clumped up' bites...

At the very end of the evening, a couple of our campmates throwing spey rods and beads under thingamabobbers joined us in that spot, and we suggested since the spot was clearly full of fish, that they hit it for a bit, and we sat back on a log to watch the show.

John hooked up on a bead in about three minutes...Nate missed a couple of quick strikes...and a few minutes after landing John's fish, Nate and John were into a double.

They hooked three fish in a very small spot in the space of ten minutes...a spot that we had already taken a pile of fish out of with spoons, drift gear, worms, a float and jig, and I think Tony may have hit one in there that day on a spinner, too...

To make it even more interesting, we never got a fish out of that particular spot that day that was bigger than twelve pounds...the first one John hooked was about 15...

That fish had been there all day, had seen spoons, spinners, worms, drift gear, float and jigs...and hadn't given us any play time.

Five casts with a bead, and the biggest fish in the hole was on the line.

If anyone doubts the effectiveness of this technique, I wish they could have been there to see that display!

Fish on...

Todd

Hey, I hooked more then one...I think.

I'm not gonna lie. My pride might have been a little tested that evening..............Goes to show just like ol' Bill says; "None of us knows more than all of us" Ofcourse not that I know a whole lot........just sayin'.

No Tony.......no ya didn't. But you could imagine if you did. ........just horsin'.

Let's just say we hooked 21 between us...an average of sever per person

Fish on...

Todd

Geez Todd, didn't ya' know the standard explanation is that the 15# fish just moved into the pool as John began casting . . . OK, I wish I'd been there to see it happen. One of the neat things about fishing, is that there is always another thing to learn.

Hey Coley,

It's only long and boring if yer a "hunt n peck" typist. This is one of the most interesting threads I've been in in a long time. The "gist" of fishing is pretty uncommon on BBs anymore, like it's all been talked out and then some. This variation is enough out of the ordinary to sustain more interest. Hell, even Todd the champion of the pink worm is invested in the discussion, altho he's pretty concerned about beads not being fly fishing (t.i.c.).

You realize I hope that it's positively devastating to learn that among undisturbed steelhead, some of the bastiches might not be players. My entire fishing strategy is based on it being a waste of time to fish twice through a pool. Well, I guess it still is, since if they didn't hit, they weren't players. (Mental note to self: if fishing through a second time, make it a bead.) What you say about strategy makes sense with respect to a high probability of fish presence. It still seems like it would take an inordinate amount of time to use the technique for searching.

As for making a distinction between fishing methods, I think it's most useful for comparing apples to apples. When it comes to fishing for winter steelhead, I have no expectation of as many hookups as my counterpart fishing with bait, or beads as it now turns out. And comparisons are useful in the course of a fishing trip, trying to figure out if fish are in the system in numbers, and if they're in the lower, middle, or upper reaches.

OP,

I sure hope it doesn't seem like your thread got hijacked. I think it's evolved into one of the more interesting steelhead discussions I've seen here in a long time.

Sg