Nice avatar.

This started out as a fairly well informed and intelligent conversation.

Unfortunately it quickly degraded into an ignorant conspiracy theory rant. I was sad to see that.

The latter sentiments are a perfect example of the disconnect between the public and legal matters such as law enforcements use of force, how criminal law works, and how carefully scrutinized the actions of any law enforcement officer are. The notion that renegade cops with itchy trigger fingers make up the majority of any police force is preposterous. I don't disagree that there aren't a few out there that shouldn't carry a credential and a gun to work, but they are FEW and far between and are usually weeded out of the system long before they have a chance to do harm. I think there are a lot of dickheads and power mongers in the field, but that is a different topic entirely.

Based on the "facts" that are known and generally agreed upon in this case, to me the shooting seems questionable. That having been said, I wasn't there and none of us in a place to accurately judge what happened.

Courts view these things based on what the officer knew at the time of the incident and what he is able to articulate as reasons for his action. The standard that case law has set to judge those actions is "reasonable" vs. "unreasonable."

Whether some use of force was appropriate will be determined, primarily, using the following factors:

1. The severity of the crime
2. Was the subject an immediate risk to themselves or others
3. Was the subject actively resisting arrest.
4. Was the subject fleeing to avoid arrest.

There are a number of other considerations as well, but those are the four primary factors that courts will look at to determine if use of force was appropriate. From there they explore whether the force applied was reasonable given the officers statements and the facts known at the time of the incident, in this case the shooting. Read up on Graham vs. Connor or Tennessee vs. Garner if you are interested in seeing where our current use of force policies and legal standards have come from.

Was some use of force appropriate in this case. Absolutely. Did the guy need to get shot? Again, I wasn't there. I haven't read the courts decision, nor do I think it is accurately reflected by the words of the reporter, given the language and tone.

Most LE officers are protected by something similar to what is called "qualified immunity" in the federal system, which basically says that they are not civilly or criminally liable for their actions if they were acting within their guiding policies or what they believed (in good faith) those policies to be at the time of their action.

I think proving "intent" for the purpose of criminal charges in a case like this would be virtually impossible, hence the current situation.

I guess you missed the part where I said 95% were great...I was being generous.

You went out of your way to make that clear Sol Duc. Cheers.

A few others have their heads lodged a little farther into the dark and smelly place.

Really? What about the one that just heard the case didn't come to that conclusion at all?

Careful BWP, if you push it any farther up there, it might not come back out.

Oh. I thought that when you said any...you meant, um, well, ANY.

You watch way too much television and have a sadly skewed perspective on reality.

By definition, truth doesn't change. There is only one.

Unlike conspiracy theories, which seem to sprout by the dozens and take a manner of shapes and sizes.

I am tapping out of this one. I am not defending this cops actions, right or wrong, just hoping we can all inform ourselves a little more completely before casting judgment.

C'mon Coley...I have the ultimate respect for all you LE guys (I know, you're not a cop); I have many friends that are WSP, County Sheriffs, and City cops. And no doubt about it, they have among toughest job in all of America.

Talking with them I am completely confident that 99% of all cops would have subdued this guy by just looking at him cross-eyed...lethal force, or even forceful force, was not necessary.

To me this was one small step away from killing a quadriplegic in a fuckn wheelchair. There is no justification, in any way, for the overzealousness of Mr. Ian Birk. He might only be 1% of the police force, but I'm glad his career of protecting citizens is finished....

Ike

Agreed.

I'm going to have to agree with Ike on this one...and the only times in my past that I was involved in cases involving the interaction of LEO's and citizens, I was defending the LEO's.

Coley's description of what is "reasonable" (which is THE standard) is spot on...but any interpretation of the facts that I have heard (yeah, I wasn't there, either, and I'm getting my facts secondhand, I'll admit) do not make the cop look good...in fact, they make him look downright bad.

He may have been having a bad day, he may have exercised poor judgment...and whether folks think it's fair or not, poor judgment will land you or me in jail, but not a cop...but from what I've seen and heard, his behavior was well over the line on the reasonable standard.

The fact that Seattle cops have long been given a free pass, coupled with the fact that the internal investigations have come down very split on this case ought to raise a few eyebrows, at the very least.

Fish on...

Todd

I think the answer for your question lays in the fact that WA has more police per capita than any other state, and OR is close behind.

Hundreds of millions of dollars are wasted every year to support these paramilitary organizations (not to mention all of the federal grants they receive to fight "the war on drugs" and the "war on terror"), and to what effect? They don't stop crime and they kill innocent people.

The nicest a cop will ever be to someone is when they're writing them a ticket for several hundred dollars.

This one is kinda funny:







Not all seattle cops are bad, but too many are.

The top one bothers you?

The top one was more than appropriate, he should tazed the beetch!

He should have hit both those gals and then tazed them, before locking them up.

Fishy

I fixed it.

Thanks, makes me wonder how they got that shot or if the guy got shredded.

Fishy

This is what can happen when officers hesitate to use appropriate and reasonable force to get a situation under control.

http://policelink.monster.com/videos/videos/14724-deputy-kyle-dinkheller

GMAFB.

Apples to Oranges.