http://videos2view.net/smackdown.htm


Thanks penny


Or TtM

He's kinda right.

If we let the mythical "free market" decide what environmental protections we will have, we will have none.

Fish on...

Todd

Rand Paul is not dead. Neither is Ron Paul, his father.

"Free to Choose" is the Milton Freidman book that would help anyone understand how subsidies and invasive regulations make markets inneficient. There was also a 10 part mini series about it on PBS that was pretty good. The original book with the idea of "the invisible hand" of the free market was entitled The Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith. The concepts are cited as the basis for our constitution.

The free market decides nothing. men make decisions. free men.... who also have the power to decide to conserve and honor that wich we had no part in creating.

Sorry, but anyone naive enough to believe a true "free market", as Mr. Paul is advocating, would make decisions based on what's best for the environment, consumer or anyone else except their own profit margins needs a reality check. Yes there are some who do, and I believe we have more evidence of that in the NW than most if not any other area of the country, but that is not the norm. Greed has taken over most businesses concerns above any other thing. There has to be many of these regulations in place for the same reasons that many of the warnings are on consumer products.............some idiot didn't know enough to know it on his/her own without someone telling them. It's a shame society, in many ways, has sunk to the levels it has but at least the lawyers are pretty happy. They have job security like no one else.

I dont enter into any agreement unless I feel I benefit. Neither does anyone else. This is fact. My agreement with my employer is a good example. I think i get a good deal by getting money and he feels like his business was improved by more than the money he gives me. If not, no one in this country would go to work because no one would hire anyone. Am I greedy? I dont think so but some could paint it that way. Do you think that the president or people who govern us are so virtuous to be above greed? It would be nice, but all presidents appoint their friends and people who supported them to their cabinets as reward. Hmmm.. It would be nice to think that the people who interact with us daily are saints but evey single person runs on greed every day. Greed is why this country is here at all after 200 years. The ability to pursue greed legally and moraly (or not at all) is the right given to us as Americans.

That said, I know I am motivated by conserving the enviroment and the animals around me, so I choose to give money I earned by being greedy to charities that support these same ideals. I also agree (vote) to pay more money in taxes for programs that help out the enviroment and I vote people into office that use the money they collected due to others acting greedily (taxes) in a way that helps out. I dont buy products from companies that choose to ignore the enviroment either. Its not hard to understand and I like to think of it as the grey decisions (should I buy the eco friendly cleaner even if it costs much more?) that makes us human enough to save whats left of our salmon. Yes, they were decimated by greedy canneries years ago, but the companies and leaders in charge also had very little education about the resource they were all profiting from. Public education and eco motivation may be a way to save salmon imo. very tough subject and I wont pretend to understand it all, I just read a lot in my free time.

The free market is just like communism - works fine in theory. My favorite Republican presidnet - Teddy Roosevelt understood that and acted accordingly.


P.S. Parker how about moving this to the dark side where it belongs?

Your living in the oldest country in the world that is based on the economic "theory" that you equate to communism. Much like Roosevelt your using your executive powers to send things to the dark side and limit debate.

dang you're wrong on so many front s that is hard to know where to start.
41 debate is much more open here then on fishing forum. your subject was not rate related to fishing.

I am a huge fan of capitalism. although there are many forms of capitalism. Some of which embrace free market some of which do not. the chinese have a form of capitalism do you like that 1 too?

Actually, it was Todd the mod who moved it.

Actually, it was Todd the Mod who first pointed out that the idea of the "free market" is a fantasy that some like to trot out when it sounds better than saying "I'll get mine, fukk all the rest of you and the environment while I'm at it"...

Fish on...

Todd

Dave Ive never even seen this forum. When you said dark side I had no idea what you were talking about.

The chinese and russians are communist countries that have had to rely on capatilism to survive. A free market economy was created when the governements allowed the individuals to sell a small portion of what they produced to others locally. Its the only reason russia is still on the map. Im not sure what your arguing about though. I think your saying free market and meaning something else. Are you thinking that free market economists dont allow for regulation?

todd, your right. Hume realized it toward the end of his life but its hard to know if he was genuine because he had already amasses millions.

Dave

Nunyet:

I really don’t know what you are saying. You seem to like the video where some attention whore is indeed telling us we need to be allowed to make whatever choices we like irrespective of the societal consequences.
Today when I hear the phrase free market it is typically a buzz word for no regulation. Many would have us believe that the “market” will self regulate so we don’t need all those onerous gubmint regulations.

While none of us much like regulations I believe that without them the USA would be a polluted mess, like China, we would have even larger banks that would eventually cripple our economy and would have massive collusion by oil companies that resulted in $10.00 a gallon gas.

Yeah, I think capitalism is by far the best economic system yet devised, but if let the free market self regulate will all suffer enormously.

You seem like a decent type who might pay a bit more for detergent that is “green” but there are many more who will buy the cheapest irrespective of the damage to the environment. And many companies will gladly make and sell truly terrible products if left to only the restraints of the free market. If we rely solely on the good will of man we are well and truly screwed.

The "buzz words" out there for "free market" would be funny, if they weren't so sad.

"Free market" generally means, as I said above, "I don't want anyone or anything...people, the country, the state, or the environment...getting in the way of me making a buck.

It also means "monopolies are good, if I own one"...the most egregious offenders of the "free market principle" are those who used the "free market" to get their share, and now actively solicit laws and regulations that will stop others from doing the exact same thing. Kind of like no bid contracts...they're awesome, if I'm the one getting the contract...they violate the "free market" if I'm not.

There is nothing "free" about the market, and there never, ever has been...it is a wholly created entity, created by law and administered by regulation.

No one...almost no one...who uses the words "free market" wants, needs, or cares for a market that is free at all...it's just a buzz phrase that is trotted out when they've got nothing useful at all to say.

Fish on...

Todd

Amen.

Here's a warning label that should go on the cover of every Ayn Rand novel, and every stack of papers that the "free market Republicans" carry around with them while shilling for their corporate owners...



Fish on...

Todd

I watched the video and Sen Paul was clearly just ranting to get attention from the lowest common denominator. His point was irrelevant to the real issue with government regulation. He looked to me like a guy with no real business sense trying to speak on the behalf of "captialism" or "big business".

When the truth of the matter is that yes, regulations are onerous, but they are a part of the current business climate. The biggest problems with regulations and taxes, is that they are unpredictable and volatile. It is impossible to create a business plan for anything without a large grey area surrounding the costs associated with regulation and taxes.

Just like a brick layer is going to lay bricks, a regulator is going to write regulations. An unfortunate fact is that many regulations are knee-jerk overreactions to one-off circumstances. My solution would be to make regulations fierce but predictable, give them a shelf life that cannot be changed for a set period (6 years, so that 2 different administrations get to live with them). This would allow better planning for capital improvements and new business ideas.

I experience this in my daily work and it is really unfortunate. I see good projects that create real jobs, get shelved due to this unpredictability. The scariest things are what we don't know, business people hate to be uninformed when their money is on the line. While they might know everything about their particular product, market strategies, hard costs and labor utilization, it is impossible for them to know what is happening on the tax and regulatory end of things and this fear causes them to close their wallets.

"We flush them [toilets] ten times and they still don't work."

Rand, that would be because you are so full of [censored].

Rand is right in principle (if they tell you what to buy they have by definition taken away your ability to make a choice) He's actually reciting the values of the libertarians. They believe that any individual can exercise his personal liberty to do what he wants, in his best interest, as long as it does not take away the liberty of another person. By taking choice away, they have taken a way freedom. In the libertarian universe, murder is the ultimate sin because it takes away the individuals ultimate liberty, one's life.

I think most of the kinks have been worked out with the toilets he's complaining about. they didn't provide enough water to move solids and clogged older pipes but now they do. I had a problem with them initially and the plumber knew what to do. Now I use a kohler electric toilet and the problem is solved. Now for the light bulbs.... kind of a mess right now but it will hopefully get better. I have CFLs in my house that are arcing out switches, failing early and I need a haz mat suit to clean up a broken one. My wife hates the light also. I don't. Let's just pray for cheaper LEDs. I know it will get better and since in most of the country electricity is not made via sustainable sources like hydroelectric, I can see this being a good thing for everyone eventually by lowering carbon footprints. I am just cheap and like the idea of paying less for my electricity bill.

try not to confuse the term free market (the economy we live and work in, under guidelines and regulations, where we choose what we make and who we sell it to, not the government) with some kind of free for all market condition where everybody can do what they want without regulation. That seems to be the root of this threads miscommunication. That free market world would not work well for anyone and Todd would rant hard in all caps, all the time.

...like destroying the commons by wasting OUR water to flush one home's shlt away. Obviously, there is a balancing act that has to be done here.

I was impressed at Rand's "politician-ness" in turning a 20 second statement into mintues of saying the same thing over and over.

-AP