Loco: Regarding our discussion the other day about Hellgrammites being
or NOT being found in Washington......They are here and your information
waz wrong. They were prevalent in Burke untill about 1989-90.

Go to Lake Index Here and Click on Beda Lake. Then click on Troutfishermans
report article on this lake(which is badly out of date now). He mentions using
hellgrammites for bait there.
The lake is no longer fishable, due to a massive population of sunfish all the
trout have died. And now it's selective gear,no bait lake.
Hope they rehab it some day, but with the Dept of F&G, who knows when!!!

Like I said, 'hellgrammite' is used by some people as a term for any large aquatic larva like stonefly or dragonfly nymphs. A true hellgrammite is the larva stage of the dobsonfly nymph. See the link below or just look up dobsonfly in google. The link has some good pictures of the adult and larve. The larve sort of looks like other large aquatic larve, but there are some distict differences. The adult female resembles a stonefly with the except of the mandibles are larger and the wings are wider. I suppose dobsonflys could have migrated west, but I have never seen one in Idaho nor California.

Hey, this is fun. A lively discussion without talking about Indian's gillnetting.

---bdb

http://www.fcps.k12.va.us/StratfordLandingES/Moran%20Website/mpages/dobsonfly.htm

Well I did look at the Nymph pitcure and it looks Exactly like the
critter that is often referred to over here as a Hellgrammite.

Also some of the fishermen I know over here are more sophisticated
than to use generic lables like Dragonfly Nmyphs as Hellgrammites.
The link I referred you to is a knowledgable guy who knows what a
stonefly and dragonfly looks like.
Yup, We got Hellgrammites here. been here for 20 years or so that
I know of. Maybe imported with some of those fruit trees or other
Agricultural imports that have brought some "unwanted critters" to E. Wash.
in addition to Hellgrammites.

I'll take your word for it, I'm not an entomologist and they could have migrated.

As far as I know the "hellgramites" which exist in the Columbia Basin lakes in numbers, are used successfully for bait in that area, and are even sold in some bait shops, are indeed dragon fly larvae.

I don't like to argue over something that the correct answer can be looked up or tested so I e-mailed the entomology dept at Washington State U. The answer is mixed; there are some hellgrammites along the west coast from BC down to California, but they live in streams and rivers and not in lakes. Without a sample the entomologist did not want to say but a good guess would be an alderfly nymph.

Here is the text of the e-mail:

"At the outset, I must confess that I do not know where Burke Lake is located. Depending upon the area of eastern Washington where Burke Lake might be, my comments may vary.

Am I correct to assume that you have a specimen in hand? There are other insects (especially beetle larvae) that resemble dobsonflies and you may have one of them. Also, I need to know something about the habitat where the specimens was collected.

Dobsonflies belong to a order of insects called Megaloptera. They are related to snakeflies and the lacewings. As you already know, the aquatic larvae are called hellgrammites and they can usually be found under rocks and logs along stream and river courses. As far as I know, they are found in the eastern U.S. as you indicate, but they also occur out west, specifically west of the Cascades in B. C., Oregon and Washington, and in the coast ranges of California. I've never seen specimens or records from east of the Cascades.

Also included in the Megaloptera is a second group, the sialids or alderflies. Adults are much smaller than corydalids and they occur in eastern Washington. Their larvae resemble hellgrammites but they are smaller and typically occur in the muddy substrate of streams, seeps and impounded beaver ponds.

Without looking at the specimen(s), it is difficult to say what you have. Have you checked any insect handbooks and compared the specimen(s) to the illustrations? If not you might check images of the larvae on-line via the Internet. I'm sorry that I cannot be of more help to you at this time."