hey guys, this is my last post, whew, in the few short days since i have posted my ranting and raving i have received more replies than anyone else, maybe i should be given a column? whadda ya think bob?

first off, bob and salmo g, hey guys come on, have you been to russia? let alone got your hands on the factual data that is being collected over yonder on the peninsula? obviously not, THE STEELHEAD POPULATIONS IN RUSSIA, ON THE PENINSULA, CONSIST MAINLY OF 2YR SMOLTS, NOT THREE, AND I SHOULD KNOW SINCE I AM SITTING HERE LAUGHING AND LOOKING AT THE DATA, THE ARMCHAIR BIOLOGIST LABEL SHOULD BE APPLIED TO YOU GUYS, AND SALMO, THE FISH DO OVERWINTER IN THE OCEAN, AT LEAST THE MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION, THE FISH OVER YONDER HAVE SIGNIFICANTLY MORE DIVERSE POPULATION STRUCTURES THAN OUR FISH, WHICH INDICATES RELATIVE HEALTH AMONGST THE STEELHEAD STOCKSS, THE POPULATIONS CONSIST MOSTLY OF MATURE STEELHEAD THAT MIGRATE TO THE OCEAN AND REMAIN THERE TO FEED, I IMAGINE YOU GUYS GET MOST OF YOUR INFO. FROM THE MAGAZINE WILD STEELHEAD AND SALMON, ITS A GOOD ONE, BETTER THAN THE OTHER COMMERCIAL CRAP THAT IS PUBLISHED, AT THIS TIME IT IS NOT KNOWN WHERE THE FISH MIGRATE TOO, A GOOD THING FOR ALL OF US BECAUSE IT PROTECTS THE OCEAN GOING FISH, NOW, ARE WE SUPPOSED TO BELIEVE THAT TWENTY POUND FISH ARE NOT OVERWINTERING IN THE OCEAN, YOU ARE DEAD WRONG SALMO AND YOU TOO BOB, AND IF BOB REALLY WANTS TO GO TO OLY, I WELCOME IT, IN FACT, IF BOB HAS TAKEN A COUPLE OF CLASSES AT A HATCHERY PRODUCING/TIMBER INDUSTRY FUNDED SCHOOL SUCH AS UW, THEN [Bleeeeep!], LETS PUT HIM IN CHARGE. BOTTOM LINE, IT DOESNT APPEAR THAT BOB HAS EVER CONDUCTED RESEARCH HIMSELF, AT LEAST ANYTHING THAT IS QUANTIFIABLE, AND REAL DATA IS THE FOUNDATION OF ACHIEVING A MORE COMPLETE, HOLISTIC UNDERSTANDING OF THE FISH. AND BOB, COMEON, STEELHEAD ARE A SPECIES, THE SAME SPECIES FOUND HERE IN WASHINGTON, ALASKA, CANADA, OREGON AND CALIFORNIA. THEY MAY HAVE DIFFERENT PHENOTYPICAL ADAPTATIONS, BUT THOSE ARE ONLY PHYSICAL EXPRESSIONS OF CERTAIN LOCI (GENETIC GROUPINGS) WITHIN THE FISH. THE PHYSICAL EXPRESSIONS BECOME MORE PRONOUNCED OR LESS SO DEPENDENT UPON WHAT THE ENVIRONMENT CALLS FOR, SUCH AS A LIGHT SWITCH, TURN IT ON WHEN IT IS DARK AND YOU GET LIGHT, TURN IT OFF DURING THE DAY, HOWEVER, IT IS STILL A LIGHT SWITCH, AND YOU COULD INSTALL IT IN ANY HOUSE, IT MIGHT LOOK DIFFERENT BUT IT WILL STILL FLIP THE POWER ON. SO GUYS, MY POINT IS THIS. RUSSIA HAS RELATIVELY HEALTHY STOCKS OF FISH, THEY SHOW AN AMAZING DEGREE OF PLASTICITY AND DIVERSITY AMONG THEIR POPULATIONS. EX. THEY HAVE VERY LARGE POPULATIONS OF RESIDENT TROUT, THESE GUYS RESEMBLE EVERYTHING FROM A WESTSLOPE CUTTHROAT TO REDBAND TROUT, THEY HAVE RAINBOWS WITH BASIBRANCHIAL TEETH, CUTTHROAT WITH BRIGHT RED STRIPES, ETC. 75% OF THEIR STEELHEAD ARE ON THEIR RETURN TRIP TO SPAWN FOR A 3RD TIME. WE DONT HAVE THAT HERE, WE DONT HAVE LARGE RESIDENT FISH ANY LONGER, IN FACT WE LACK ALMOST ANY HEALTHY POPULATIONS OF RESIDENT RAINBOWS IN OUR STREAMS THROUGHOUT WASHINGTON, BUT, ALASKA DOES HAVE LARGE RESIDENT FISH AND SO DOES CANADA, COINCIDENCE, NOPE, THE SPAWNING INTERACTION BETWEEN RESIDENT FISH, JACK FISH, AND THE VARIED FORMS OF ANADRAMOUS FISH CREATE A WIDE ARRAY OF GENETIC DIVERSITY THAT ONCE SWAM THE STREAMS OF THE NORTHWEST. SALMO, COMEON, NO ONE KNOWS THE HISTORIC SPAWNING RETURN RATES OF FISH IN THE NW, THEY WERENT COLLECTING DATA THEN, BEFORE THE MASS DESTRUCTION THAT IS. SO, WE SHOULD UTILIZE RUSSIAN DATA AND THE RESEARCH TO PROVIDE US AMERICANS WITH SOME SOLID BASELINE INFORMATION, A PEEK INTO THE PAST SO TO SAY, THEIR PIECES OF THE PUZZLE ARE MORE COMPLETE THAN OURS, AND A PUZZLE THAT IS ALMOST COMPLETE IS EASIER TO PUT TOGETHER THAN A PUZZLE THAT IS SCATTERED ABOUT AND MISSING SEVERAL KEY PIECES (LIKE OUR STEELHEAD AND SALMON IN THE NW) I HAVE FISHED THROUGHOUT N AMERICA FOR FISH FOR OVER TWENTY YEARS, OFTEN SPENDING OVER 250-300 DAYS ON THE RIVERS, SO I TOO HAVE A CLUE, AN INSIGHT INTO THE DAILY WORKINGS OF THE RIVER, AND ALSO INCLUDED IN MY PASSION IS A KNOWLEDGE OF THE PHYSICAL SYSTEM, THE DYNAMIC EQUILIBRIUM THAT PULSES THROUGH THE DRAINAGES. TO UNDERSTAND THE RIVER, ONE MUST KNOW A MULTITUDE OF PERSPECTIVES, NOT ONLY THE FISH. THIS LATEST RESEARCH IS APPLICABLE TO ALL OF OUR STREAMS AND FISH POPULATIONS. THE FISH IN SIBERIA LIVE IN A MUCH HARSHER ENVIRONMENT THAN OUR FISH IN THE NW, GEOTHERMAL VENTS HEAT SPAWNING GROUNDS, GEOLOGICAL ACTIVITIES INNUNDATE STREAMS WITH SILT AND ASH, AND THE OLIGOTROPHIC WATERS OF THE RUSSIAN RIVERS SUSTAIN LESS MACROINVERTEBRATE LIFE THAN EVEN OUR NUTRIENT POOR WATERS. BOB WOULD LIKE US TO BELIEVE THAT WE CANNOT COMPARE THE RESEARCH TO OUR STREAMS BECAUSE OF SIMPLE MEASUREMENTS SUCH AS GRADIENT OR RIPARIAN GROWTH, COME ON BOB, THOSE CHARACTERISTICS ONLY INFLUENCE PHENOTYPICAL DEVELOPMENT. AS FOR CLADISTICS AND PUNCTUATED EQUILIBRIUM, MAYBE THE FELLA WHO REMARKED ABOUT THE SUBJECTS SHOULD READ SJG OVER AGAIN, GOULD IS AN AVID SUPPORTER OF DARWINS WORK, I HAVE MET SJG PERSONALLY, HE WOULD PROBABLY GET A KICK OUT OF THE THEORY THAT DARWINS WORK IS OUTDATED, CLADISTICS AND PUNCTUATED EQUILIBRIUM ARE OLD NEWS ALSO, AND FOR THOSE WHO DONT KNOW, CLADISTICS SIMPLY REFERS TO PHYLOGENETIC RELATIONSHIPS OF FAUNA AND FLORA, THUS, A MAP AND ROUGH TIMETABLE OF THE EVOLUTIONARY SEQUENCE OF GENETIC BRANCHING THAT OCCURRED IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE THE CURRENT SPECIES WE HAVE IN OUR TIME, AND NOW TO PUNCT. EQUILI.: SIMPLY PUT, IT IS THE BALANCE ACHIEVED AFTER A SPURT/RAPID GENETIC GROWTH/DIVERSION PERIOD THAT OCCURS (USUALLY) IN CORRELATION WITH DRAMATIC PHYSICAL/ENVIRONMENTAL/GEOLOGICAL/CLIMATIC ALTERATIONS, THUS THE ENVIRONMENT DICTATES WHO SURVIVES AND IF THE ENVIRONMENT CHANGES ALOT THEN SO WILL THE NUCLEAR GENETIC MAKEUP OF THE SPECIES. THE LAST ENVIRONMENTAL CHANGE YOU ASK, THE PLEISTOCENE GLACIATION, BY THE WAY, THE KAMCH. PENINSULA WASNT GLACIATED DURING THIS PERIOD, UNLIKE MOST OF NORTHERN WASHINGTON, THE CHEHALIS RIVER DRAINAGE BEING THE ONLY SIZEABLE REFUGIA DURING THAT TIME, SO 15OOO YEARS AGO, THE CORDILLERAN ICE SHEET WAS RETREATING AND LEAVING MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF GLACIAL OUTWASH IN OUR STREAM VALLEYS, THUS WE HAVE SEDIMENT RICH VALLEYS WITH LOTS OF GRAVEL FOR SPAWNING SALMONIDS. BUT WE HAVE KILLED MOST OF OUR LARGE RESIDENT TROUT, THEY TAKE 7-10 YEARS TO ACHIEVE THE GROWTH SIZE FOUND IN RUSSIA, AND DUE TO OUR FISHING PRACTICES THE FISH HAVE NOW DISAPPEARED IN OUR STREAMS. LARGE FISH ARE USUALLY OLD, OUR FISH DIE BEFORE THEY REACH THAT AGE, AND CATCH AND RELEASE IS A PART OF THAT. AS FOR TRIBAL FISHERIES, HEY BOB, YOU MAKE BUCKS OF HARASSING DEPLETED POPULATIONS, BY OVERCROWDING RIVERS WITH FISHERMAN WHO MIGHT NOT OTHERWISE COME OUT HERE, LIKE SALMO G SAID, THERE ARE MORE FISHERMAN AND LESS FISH, SO THAT MAKES BOB PART OF THE PROBLEM. THE TRIBES SIGNED TREATIES BOB, WHICH IS MORE THAN THE RIGHT YOU HAVE TO FISH, IT IS THEIR CULTURE AND PART OF THEIR SPIRITUALITY. WHY CANT GUYS LIKE YOU JUST ENJOY THE RIVER WITHOUT FISHING, LEARN TO WATCH BIRDS, WRITE, DRAW, LOOK INSIDE YOURSELF FOR ANSWERS. WE ARE ALL PART OF THE PROBLEM AND I DONT SEE MANY PEOPLE ADMITING THEIR PART, OR SETTING DOWN THEIR POLES IN PROTEST TO THE POOR MANAGEMENT PRACTICES. JUST FISH UNTIL THERE ARENT ANY MORE IS WHAT IT SOUNDS LIKE IM HEARING. THAT SUCKS, IT IS SAD. AND FOR YOU GUYS WHO WANT BOB IN OLY, ONCE AGAIN, GO FOR IT, BOB WILL GET CHEWED UP QUICKER THAN A SALMON BY A BEAR. HE FLOODED THE PAGE WITH INCORRECT INFORMATION, RESEARCH BIOLOGISTS (MOST OF THEM) WORK REALLY HARD TO STUDY THE FISH AND WOULD BE OFFENDED BY THE SIMPLISTIC VIEW OF GUIDES LIKE BOB WHO THINK THAT THE QUALITATIVE DATA THEY PICK UP DURING FISHING TRIPS CORRELATES TO ACTUAL TRUTHS OR COHESIVE PHILOSOPHIES/THEORIES. THROWING OUT DATA JUST TO REFUTE SOMEONE IS GOING TO GET US NOWHERE, IF YOU ARE OFFENDED JUST SAY SO, IM NOT HERE TO MAKE YOU SMILE, JUST A ROCK IN YOUR PILLOW TO WAKE YOU UP. LOOK AROUND, THE POPULATIONS WE HAVE DO NOT EVEN SHOW A FRACTION OF THE DIVERSITY FOUND IN RUSSIA, SET THE POLES ASIDE BOYS, AND BEGIN TO TAKE CLIENTS DOWN THE RIVER TO SHOW THEM THE NATURAL WORLD, EXPLAIN WHO THE RIVER FUNCTIONS AND THE CONNECTION BETWEEN ALL THE FLORA AND FAUNA FOUND IN THE DRAINAGE VALLEYS. GOOD LUCK AND I HOPE THIS MESSAGE IS LUCID ENOUGH TO UNDERSTAND

You sound like a hypocritical angry child who dosent care for Bob too much, see you on the river! Chuck

Good Night Waldo. For a minute, I thought I was back in college studying marine biology. The bottom line is that the cash to take "care" of these fish comes from liscences. Cold but true. I don't really give a rip about all the technical, biologocal, technocrap. The fact is you have a bunch of guys on the site that love to fish, and are willing to not "intentionally" kill a fish. They have chosen to release them once they are caught. Shut down fishing, I'm sure nobody will be slipping down to the river and bonking fish, because there are so many wardens to patrol. I,m sure you'll spend the time to float the river to be part of a citizen patrol. Surely no one would ever poach. Perhaps if they did, we would be fortunate to have them do this on a day that it would have the least psychological impact on the fish that witnessed the crime. I have conducted a 24 year comprehensive study on steelheads in the Midwest, Ontario, Idaho, Klickitat River, and Deschutes. My data shows that when fish have their skulls clubbed, their guts dropped out, and iced in a cooler that they don't spawn. Fish that are released properly have a much better survival rate than those who are gutted. WHOOODA THUNK IT. As for the cultural spirit of some Natives, I have seen a huge affection with the Great Casino Bear. When I lived in Washington, the Indians netted fish, put them in the trunk of their car, and tried to sell them to the first guy that showed up on the river. What part of spirituality is this? You're going to have a hard time telling me that the runs on the Klickitat have diminished because of Catch and release.

We need new laws, because we are doing such a bang up job of following and enforcing the ones that are already in the books. Shut everything down, what the hell, they outlawed alcohol during prohibition, and that worked. Open your eyes, the ban on teen smoking is working wonders too. Our President sets a great example for us all.

Since when did Russia become an example for the world to follow. If they had the population center near those "genetically pure" steelheads you allude to, they would have trawlers out there in a second. There country is in a shambles. They rape the landscape as bad or worse than has occured in this country. Have you been there?

TV is proven to have a negative impact, and people can be influenced by it. I think between GreenPeace conventions, visits to the Dahli Llama, a hike to the summit of Everest, Xen Buddhism, surviving the Titanic, and 100 re-runs of "A River Runs Through It", you have floated to the outer edge of society. Dances with Wolves is a great flick, but those days are done. Oops, the alarm went off, time to wake up to the real world.

If you want to crank on guys who are trying to make the best of a not so great situation, I think you landed in the wrong nest. I do know several drones that walk the Root and Oak Creek with nets, treble hooks, and stringers that you could deliver a sermon to.

I was interested at first but between the insults and the long windedness I gave up. By the way, posting in all caps is considered rude.

Just a few quick notes ...

Busted??? Wild Steelhead & Atlantic Salmon Magazine ... maybe on the bottom of the birdcage ... The 1994 Joint U.S.-Russia Kamchatka Steelhead Expedition final report to U.S. National Marine Fisheries Service prepared by Barry A.Berejikian and Katherine W. Myers in 1996 found that the predomineant age-group 'samples were 3.3 (33% of the total), 2.3 (22%), and 3.4 (16%)' the remaining age-group classes pushed the 3/x fish to over 50% ... boy, last time I checked, over 50% was a majority! That is TEN times what was found in either the Green (1940-41), the Hoh (1949-50), the Chehalis (1948), and the Cowlitz (1947-48) ... 'BEFORE THE MASS DESTRUCTION THAT IS.'

You've changed your story Waldo ... in your first post, you say that 'up to 50% of the steelhead return to spawn 3 times' ... in this post you've changed that to '75% OF THEIR STEELHEAD ARE ON THEIR RETURN TRIP TO SPAWN FOR A 3RD TIME' ... the cited study also addresses third-time spawners ... 22%!!! Who's busting who???

Throw out all the mumbo-jumbo big words and facts and figures on both sides and answer this for me Waldo ... by your own admittance, you say that the sport fishery '... was closed in the 1980's because of a decline in the fish population.' The study cited above also makes mention of the 'endangered status of steelhead populations in Kamchatka' ... why do we want to be like Russia anyhow??

And since I am so 'simplistic' ... here's a simple image of the Hoh Indian Tribe's idea of 'THEIR CULTURE AND PART OF THEIR SPIRITUALITY' ... I'm glad our forefathers had the sense to protect this sort of waste ...

I had to actually force myself to read the last 7/8 of that post. It's not the CAPS that makes it hard to read, nor the obscure language. That must take you hours to type. I sincerely do hope you keep your promise and make that your last post. I think most of our problems can be summed up in one word - nets. Don't even waste your breath Bob.

So the fish are listed and now we have to wait till "fall or early winter" to find out how it actually impacts our days streamside? Here's a quote from the paper this morning from a local resident concerning the endangered fish: "I don't care if they all die. I think everyone in this state makes too much of it." Pretty scary huh?

So Ralph, do you by any chance belong to the Wildcat Fishing Club? Just curious.

HEY RALPH-

BLAHH...BLAHH....BLAHH...


An intelligent reply is'nt deserved after such a rude delivery. But let me share something you may not know, to debate a topic reguardless of content can be grand and the best data will still fall on deaf ears with a poor delivery. You seem very talented in the latter. I, for one, have had enough "rocks in my pillow" here and hope you now stick to that promise. Time now for you to go, so you can pursue your drawing carreer.

Ralph,
JTD said it Blahh...Blahh...Blahh...
You sure do have a lot of time on your hands.You have nothing better to do than BASH (note the caps)one of the few,if not only guides on the coast that actually,strictly practices catch and release on wild steelhead.You come on to his website and talk smack about one of the best guides in Washington.Who are you?Some self righteous hypocrite who says you only fish when your least affecting the resource,limited to only a few days a year.Then come back and say you fish 300 days a year.Fill us in Ralph because you sure seem to have found a lot of days when you are not affecting anything.You are the best self proclaimed biologist in the world(your world)aren't you?You are barking up the wrong tree here.These are dedicated fisherman who use this forum,people who are very concerned about the future of wild steelhead,people who would do nothing to harm wild steelhead,and that's a hell of a lot better than the average bonk em on the head fishkiller.95% better (I gave you your 5% hooking mortality rate)DO THE MATH(again note the caps)Your preaching to the choir here.You should take your soapbox to the Pay n Save in Forks on a Saturday morning and we'll see how long you are standing.Bob is not part of the problem,if all the nate killin guides in Forks were like Bob there would be no problem,except for your spiritual keepers of the Earth and their fancy monofilament gilldeaths.If you love Russian fish and their superior genetics so much you should head over there and check out some of the flaura and the fauna and maybe we'll get lucky and some bear will chew you up like a salmon.Good luck fishing Ralph.I hope this message was lucid enough for you to understand.JACKASS.
Kent Alger

Dear Ralph,

Kiss My Ass!

Love Robbo

I think we've all wasted enough on this guy. I hope he has an ergonomic keyboard so he doesn't carpal tunnel from all that typing. I imagine it would be your fault, anyway, Bob, for making him do it. You'll likely get the bill.
WALDO, GO ON WITH YOUR BAD SELF.
There are lots of problems with our native fish, and the money generated by C&R fishing, licenses, gear, food, lodging, gas, guide licenses and insurance, etc., some of which makes its way into fish protection, makes C&R if not part of the solution, at least not part of the problem.
As noted above, we're doing our best with a situation that is not so good.

I hope that was lucid enough.
Fish on...
Todd.

Bottom line!!!!....Ralph is way to smart for his own good...I dont know about you people but I dont have the patience to read all that crap. Flippin drives me nuts. We are a B.A.N. away from not even having to worry. The next step will be to go after tribal nets. BABY STEPS BOYS!...It will happen.

Ralphie, yo big ole mouth didn't get you any further here than it did on the senate floor. You got busted here and your bill went down in flames there!

Wow. If your going to bash people let me suggest three things 1) Quote them accurately (I did not say cladistics was old news) 2) Remember what you said before (too bad you didn't) and 3) Put down the thesaurus. I too have met Stephen Gould, and many other well published workers in the field of geology, paleontology and biology (some were teachers some just friends). Your condescending tone reveals your limitless ego and frail self esteem. I do hope though that you keep your promise never to return (you have memory problem). Everybody has an opinion, but you have moved far from the point of this BB. Not a surprise, I suspect this is not the first BB you have graced with you intentionally obtuse drivel. Good god man go away.

BTW cladistics is a system of classification that exists (in it's pure form) without any correlation to time.

Now that that's said...FISH ON!!!

Ralphie, Get a freaking life.