Question, Fishing the upper Skagit over the last 10 years. I thought I've seen it all. However, pulling a pink plug in my favorite summer run slot we hit humpy after humpy. with no sign of steelhead . We then slid down to the next drift and started to pitch bait. Here comes a drift boat equipped with a motor. This goon slid right on top of us so he could fire off his K-16's and short hole us to boot. Everyone knows the skagit is not open for Kings . This is an obvious King lure. How do these people get away with this crap and not even feel any wrong? Am I out of line or does this act of defiance tear your heart out. Remember to explain this to your 14 year old boy and tell him these people are just plain messed up.

Rick, very ugly situation. This happens occasionally and it's not going to get any better.What now do we quit fishing or do we put up with it? It,s ugly but welcome to the "Real World"

You will also see same behavior, even by the guides, on the Humptulips this fall even though it's closed to the taking of chinook.

Guilty as charged ... this is a very interesting topic to me as it relates to something I have done from time to time in past years.

I don't know about the regs up and down the Skagit and whether or not the entire river is closed to kings, nor do I know much about the actual strength of the run or spawning territory in the river or the like, so I'm going to shift to the Hoh ... which I do know an awful lot about.

About four or five years back, the upper end of the river was closed to the taking of salmon (conservation purposes) ... yet the lower end of the river continued to be open full bore with a limit of two salmon daily. The state figured they needed to close the upper river to help out the run ... okay, fine, but why does the limit stay the same in the lower river??? You've simply put all the pressure in one area with really no change in harvest.

Now, what I have done on occasion, is to ask the fellas if they would like to fish "steelhead" in the upper end with all caught salmon caught (with tackle rigged to minimize possible harm to fish, and likely spawning grounds avoided). The results ... we catch say maybe 10 or 12 salmon on average (figure 10% mortality at most ... see UW studies on scales-set king mortality in in-river C&R fishing) ... we've harvested ONE fish ... now, on the other hand, I could fish the lower river, kill four fish for sure ... hmmm, do the math ... which has more impact on the run??? In addition, myself and whomever I'm fishing with has a nicer trip down the river without too many other boats and much nicer scenery.

A few people also learn through this experience that fishing isn't ONLY about killing fish ... although I admit that perhaps I am not setting the best of examples by skirting the rules ... the regs DO NOT say that we cannot fish these waters.

Perhaps my frustraton with the management policies of the state contribute to my feelings on this one.

Why is it that the WDFW looks at salmon fishing with one of two options: a "kill' em all" attitude when we have decent returns; and a no fishing at all when they are weaker??

Why do we continue to have a two salmon per day limit with no seasonal limit??? Why have the limits for fall fish never dropped to one fish daily? How 'bout a seasonal limit of five (preferable in my eyes) or even ten fish??? After all, on the Hoh and other coastal rivers, the quality of flesh in fall kings is far from ideal!! I see many of the fish retained by both private anglers and some of the other guides that aren't even fit for consumption, yet, they are whacked on the head only to likely be thrown in the garbage later!

Many anglers dream of the fishing opportunities here on Alaska's Kenai Peninsula ... guess what? Anglers here are limited to one fish per day (on the Kenai, you must stop fishing after you keep the one) with a seasonal limit of NO MORE than five for the entire region (some areas, such as the Kenai, no more than two annually. C&R fisheries are instituted when the numbers of kings are down ... which incidentally, has taken place at one point in the season five of the last nine years on the Kenai!

We have C&R fisheries in place for steelhead (hopefully some day, all the wild ones will have to be released) ... why do we never have them for salmon on the rivers??? Surely if the state thinks hooking mortality is okay on feeding, loose-scaled fish in the saltchuck is okay in "selective fisheries", why not on territorial-striking, set-scaled fish in the rivers???

Personally, I don't have a problem with this activity if the gear is rigged to minimize damage to a fish and there are enough fish around to allow for some mortality (such as the Hoh with full-bore season down below).

When will the WDFW have the wisdom to limit harvests and preserve angling opportunities?? This fall's season is a perfect example ... many runs are supposed to be down, so the state closed many fisheries ... it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the pressure looking to kill fish from the closed waters will shift to other nearby streams ... read this as: Grays Harbor streams anglers shifting to the northern streams (Hoh, Quillayute system) ... so what does the state do to the regs in these open streams that will likely see numbers of anglers that have never been present before ... liberalize the regs! Same limits, and, that area that I fished that was only open for "steelhead fishing" ... it is now open for a two fish daily limit!!

I agree Bob, if I have gear on that will minimize any damage to a species that is closed-along with using proper release methods-kicking fish with feet is not one of them, I am doing less harm than those that have a fishing pole in one hand and a club in the other. This fall I will do some "steelheading" as I have in the past. If I want fish for the freezer I will fish the open waters. I am amazed at the decisions the DFW makes on what waters are open and which are closed-what mehtod do they use? Throw the Yahtzee dice and lets see how it all pans out, darts, pick a number, lets screw the sportsmen method. I "steelhead" knowing that yeah I may be doing some damage to some of these fish-but I am not up fishing on the redds, I am not snagging, no bait. SBH-Single BarbLessHook-seems to be a good start, if I hook one I unbutton it at the boat fish still in water-instead of picking the fish up with my pliers and letting the fish hang and yank,yank yank, splash, flop release. In return I volunteer and work stream enhancement when needed-all the time. I fished the Skagit last week-by the way Rick it was not me, I fished the lower for "Steelhead". I had a hard time keeping the low run of pinks off my SBHhook. I guess if I as a sportsman/person had a vote or a part of the decision making to what waters are open/closed, this would not seem so outlawish, apparently, my license does not give me that right. I like some of the ideas Bob had release all wilds, yearly limit are a good start. Maybe the state should force proper c&r techniques and outlaw the boot.

[This message has been edited by Coho (edited 08-31-1999).]

I'm not sure what boat that guy you speak of was in, Rick, but one our guys up here nailed a boat up in Marblemount on Saturday with 6 kings. They took everything this "gentleman" had with him that day, including his boat and all the tackle in it, and his truck/trailer. Then they put a lean on the dickweeds house, I'm assuming to cover all the fines he racked up. I can drive by one of three houses in town and pretty much nail down who it was. All I can say, is it's about time.

Without going into much detail, I can say that I agree with Bob about the benefits of C&R fisheries versus kill fisheries. I, too, enjoy catching "steelhead" on certain rivers at particular times of the year and know that my impact is very minimal compared to the poachers that I'm usually fishing alongside. Someday the state will wake up and smell the roses, let's just hope it's soon.

Technically, you can't fish for kings in a river that's not open for them.

How the Hell do you enforce that? I've "steelhead" fished the lower Skagit in the summer with floats and eggs, surely catching more kings than steelhead, but actually fishing for steelhead. Pulling a diver and a Kwikfish with a sardine wrap is not a generally recognized steelheading technique.

I saw B'ham's local warden (if you're up there at all, you know exactly who I mean) ticket a gentleman on the Nooksack in December fishing with drift gear because he caught four straight chums and continued to cast into the same hole. This was before the North Fork Nooksack was opened to the chum fishing, about seven or eight years ago. Even using steelhead gear, this guy was fishing for salmon where it wasn't open, at least according to Mr. Woods. This seems much less egregious than pulling divers and wrapped plugs after "steelhead".

This seems like a pretty tough rule to enforce. What if you summer run fish with a spinner, or eggs, or a jig? It is only a matter of time before you run across a springer or a coho that is not to be kept at that time or in that stream.

How about if you are fishing in a river that is open to both salmon and steelhead, but catch an otherwise legal springer on a spinner with a treble hook, while at the same time the regs call for a non-buoyant lure restriction ( no treble hooks on lures that don't float when fishing for salmon). By the rules, that fish goes back, even though you were legally fishing and caught a fish that the river is open for. Try to enforce that one in the "real world"!

As with almost all of our fishing regulations, self-regulation is the only way to really enforce them. With one warden every six or seven rivers, I'm sure that 99% of game violations are never discovered. How you want to self-regulate is entirely an issue you need to discuss with yourself.

In my opinion, fishing for steelhead and catching a salmon, which is immediately, and hopefully competently, released, will happen and will be a nice bonus for a day of steelheading. Pulling divers and wrapped plugs that are six or seven inches long is fishing for salmon, and if it's not open for salmon, you're breaking the law.

On a lighter note, my Zipperlip produced a big fat zero on steelhead yesterday, but drifting naked eggs on a size four Gammie with a six foot leader of eight pound test hooked me up with a hot 13 pound springer. Besides being a strong fighter, this fish was damn near chrome, and the river was actually open for springers, too. Guess what I'm BBQ'ng tonight?

Fish on...

Todd.

At a tackle shop in Aberdeen, I was told to be very carefull of how you're fishing on the Humptulips when the river has been closed for Kings. As the last few years they have had restrictions on when/if you could keep them. I was told that they were enforcing this very closely and giving tickets to people who were obviously fishing for kings -whether or not they were releasing them. He told me if they saw you fishing with one or more of the following you had a very good chance of getting a ticket: large qwick-fish, heavier line,large hooks and/or stout pole etc. they knew what your intent was. He said they had given out quite a few tickets on one or more of these reasons and that people were really upset over it but it was obvious what they were targeting and it wasn't the 8lbs silvers that the river was open for. I have been told that they are going to be out early this year to enforce this hoping the word gets out - so be warned because they supposedly won't.

------------------

I agree with most of Bob's points, in fact, I think he hit the nail on the head on a few. But I believe it's unethical to intentionally target a closed species while saying your fishing for an open species. This is a gray area to be debated no matter what the facts are to justify it. If I remember right, I believe last summer on the Sky many anglers were fishing for "steelhead" using wrapped Kiwkfish and WDFW took some type of action. I would like to ask these "sportsmen" how much fun it was to release a big, thrashing Chinook with a large, barbed treble hook Kwikfish hanging from it's mouth. It will be too bad when more dummies who don't C&R correctly and don't use single barbless hooks decide to go "steelhead " fishing while really targeting Chinook, causing higher hooking mortality and WDFW decides to close a river. I like the idea of limiting the catch to one Chinook per day and limit the seasonal catch like Alaska. I bet you would see a lot more unfit table fare going back into the river, "it'll smoke", -right. It's also a true statement about the increased pressure the northern peninsula streams will experience this fall because of a Chinook closure on the Hump, etc. Look at the reason all the bonkers come to Forks in the spring because it's the only place left in the state where you can still legally kill a wild Steelhead. I still don't get why the WDFW won't impose the same regulations throughout the peninsula streams that Skagit, Sauk and Sky have in the spring, but that's a separate topic. The only problem I have with the seasonal catch limit idea (like the current regulation on the Hoh, which allows angler to kill 2 wild Steelhead per season) is it doesn't place any limitations on the guides who don't C&R. Each day they have new clients so the bonking of wild Steelhead to them is unlimited, anyway interesting topic. Bob, I'll be fishing the zipperlip the third week of Sept. I'll say Hi if we bump into eachother, good luck.

[This message has been edited by Rich (edited 09-02-1999).]

I believe Bob has some great ideas that he learned from Alaska. The only problem I see is the one Rich pointed out about guides who practice bonking with new clients everyday. The guides clients would be lucky to catch there fish without a guide. Its the guide who is doing the damage to the fishery not the client who bonks two a year. Bob knows the fellow guides who target the fish in the open waters day after day in the Quilayute and Hoh systems. So do the sportsmen who fish on a regular basis. (Jimmy,Gordon,Rodney,Jeff,1stH20... along with the others). That whole yearly limit on the Hoh (2 fish a year)and Quilayute( 5 fish) was backed by the Forks guide association to the benefit of the guides not the fish. People who spent thousands of dollars for there boats and equipment can keep two fish from there favorite river, while the guide can keep two everyday for the entire season. I would like to see a limit placed on the guides so they can only fish the c&r waters or keep only marked fish while fishing with a guide. Thats my two cents

smilesforu,
Now hold on just a minute. You are certainly entitled to your 2cents but I must take exception to a couple of things you said.

First, it's a mighty big assumption on your part to say that people who fish with guides wouldn't be able to get their fish without them. That's probably true of some but definately not all. I'd like to see you back that statement up with fact.

Second, the guides do not kill fish day after day. Those fish belong to the clients and are counted toward their annual limit. Sounds pretty simple but you don't seem to understand that. If we apply your logic to the guiding industry as a whole, deer hunting guides would only be able to guide one successful client per year. Same with elk guides, bear guides, etc. Gosh, someone who guides for moose, goat or sheep in this state could only have a successful client once in their lifetime. This (il)logic would extend to any fish or game for which there is an annual or seasonal limit.

The bottom line is that guiding is a business like any other. You offer a service for a price. If it's a legal service and there is a demand for that service then you have the potential for success. I certainly don't think it's right to slam someone for doing this. If you don't want to fill your annual limit then that's your choice.If someone else does and they are within the law, then that is their legal priviledge whether guided or not. Don't like that law? Change it.

I fail to understand the logic that finds it OK to target a run or species, that trained biologists have determined can't support a fishery, as long as you're going to release them. Then in the next breath attacking people who choose to bonk a fish in a fishery where bonking a fish is perfectly legal. This is elitism at it's worst.If someone breaks the law that is one thing. If they choose to exercise their legal right or priviledge who the hell are we to badmouth them for it. Don't like the law? Change it!

Mountianman, I agree with your logic, but the GUIDE should be out there setting the example for the sports fisher(wo)man and not skirting the intent of the law to give a client fun, per say. I enjoy C&R, but only legally done.

Excuse me I didn't me to paint all guides and fishermen with the same brush.
Clients do pay for results when they go fishing. It is not the guides fault for doing there job. I respect these guys they are great fishermen. The guides are doing what is perfectly legal and I realize that. Some guides do only fish the C&R waters and I applaud them. The law the way it is set up now has a huge loop hole in my opinion that favors the guide and there business. The law on the West End rivers systems was greatly influenced by the Forks Guide association "business interest".

I must disagree that some guides don't kill fish day after day remember the 10% mortality C& R also.

I would love to see a creel report that showed what the guide's boats caught out of the river systems. Those fish are targeted by the guide on a given section of stream, sure they belong to the client but the guide took them there to that spot. Most clients aren't going to float the clawaha and soleduck on there own. These are dangerous rivers with little or no bank access.


How many fish can a guide boat catch? two clients a day fishing 90 trips? 180 native fish + 10% of C&R that "belong" to the clients. Hmmm I can keep 2 from the hoh and 5 from the Quilayute plus my 10% C&R damage.

I am allowed to kill 7 for my boat each year and each guide can kill 180 ,not including the 10% mortality C&R!!! (talking natives not hatchery). Thats one guide vs average joe.

Ok do the math whos hurting the fish?
25 average Joes to do the damage of one guide boat.

Damage to fish ranks like this

#1 Indian nets 50%
#2 Guides

Guiding is not a easy way to make a living but isn't it really commercial fishing?

Mountain Man Point the way I would be happy to change that law!!!!! I know I am not politically correct in your eyes.




[This message has been edited by smilesforu (edited 09-03-1999).]

Since the Hump will start up pretty soon, I'd like to re-visit the post by HB warning that enforcement will be ticketing folks that they think are targeting kings. HB reported that enforcement will target those who use:
- large quickies
- heavy line
- large hooks
- stout rod
I'll admit, quickies are the best plug for kings, but it's amazing the number of silvers, chums, and even late summer steelhead that will hit a large quickfish. The package says that the lure is for both salmon and steelhead. Although using a quickie problably shows some intent that an angler wouldn't mind if a king hit it, I don't see how enforcement could ticket you for it. With the higher water volumes this year, you're also likely to see more mixing of the runs as well(kings, silvers, chum, & steelhead in the same water at the same time).

Whats heavy line? I usually run 20 on the hump because kings, silvers, and chums can all run this big. An 8lb silver is small for the hump; a 12-16lb silver is pretty routine. I also can't tell you how many fish have sawed my leader off with those big developing teeth. I don't think heavy line shows any intent at all as to what species your after.

Large Hooks? I run 1/0 at Stevens Creek because the stacked fish seem to want smaller presentations but use 2/0 or 3/0 everywhere else, regardless of whats in the water. And isn't there a gap limit that can't be exceeded anyway? I can't see how hook size would show any intent.

Stout Rod? Define this; a 10-20 or 10-30lb rod is reasonable for silvers on the coast and chums anywhere. How can this show intent to target kings? I use my steelhead rod for steelhead, Puget Sound silvers, and pinks. I use my salmon rods everywhere else.

If anyone else has any views or information about what will be going on this year on the hump, I'd like to know. Thanks.