I have learned a lot about unfair Indian netting & other abuses in your region in a short time from this BB. It is disturbing to say the least. I know, like any group of people, that there are those that are abusive of rights & the resorces; & there are those that behave ethically among Indian & all groups. However, I see credence in the tales of abusive overharvest by many of the Oly. Penn Indians, in that I have seen for myself, as well as heard from reliable sources, of the same type of abusive overharvest cheating on the Columbia R. by many of the Treaty Tribe members in our region. Local sportfishing groups such as ANWS & NSIA have done much to reduce these abuses in our area. - A few Q's & suggestions: How do the Oly. Penn Indians escape the Federal Endangered Species Act? This is a very powerful peice of national legislation that has stopped the strong timber lobbyists in their tracks over the Spotted Owl. It has turned the Columbia R. sport & net fisheries (including Columbia region Indian tribes) upside down with restrictions & closures. Why not up there?? - What if anything has been done lately in attempt to overturn the infamous Judge Boldt decision alotting 50% of harvestable fish to these Indians (based on rediculously outdated principals)?- Read the Buzz Ramsey article in the Feb./Mar. issue of Salmon Trout Steelheader magazine- "How Politics Affect Your Fishing and My Job", page 24. It explains how affective the Norhtwest Sportfishing Industry Association (NSIA) has become in protecting sportsfishermen's rights. They have almost single handedly kept the Gov. from futher Columbia R. sportfishing closures. The NSIA in combination with an organized NW Wash. sportfishing alliance could be a powerful combined force to persuade state politicians to enact legislation to overturn the Boldt decision (call them at 503-631-8859 for help). Sportfishing lawyers could help out (any of them into pro-bono for the cause?) by enacting a sportfishermen,s class action suit against at least the abuses mentioned on this board by creating a combo Government/citizen watchdog group to oversee Indian netting & selling activity- & perhaps contribute to new challenges to the Boldt decision also. BUT, this will take a lot of effort by a lot of influential sportfishermen from your region in an ORGANIZED ASSOCIATION format to get results ( made up from such as guides associations, Assoc. of NW Steelheaders, &... ALL OF YOU).- Bob, or everyone on here, could printout copies of the most meaningful posts off this bulletin board, concerning this subject, to send to state legislators, the proper politicions, & newspaper columnists to stimulate positive action. Use camcorders, long range camera lenses, & affidavits of evidence of abuses! Many of you have complained. If this were happening in my water I wouldn't just complain- I would fight tooth & nail for proper rights for all sportfishing & against special group abuses!!! Get off your butts & get after it! - Steve Hanson

[This message has been edited by Backbouncer1 (edited 03-07-2000).]

Believe me there is NOTHING anyone can do!!! Alls we can do is work with each other to get rid of the bad seeds from both sides. The goverment is not going to amend ANY part of the TREATIES!!!!!!!!!!

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Tight Lines!!

Dick- Your post sounds awfully pesimistic to me. It could be just my own naivety about what's gone on with efforts to change the status quo up there. Or not. Are you a tribal member attempting to put out a cynder? If not, can you give a substantive basis for your claims? It would be greatly appreciated- if it's as hopeless as you state, then people should concentrate on ridding the "bad seeds" as you say; which I addressed with suggestions for an organized watchdog group to minimize illegal & unethical wasteful abuses. Thanks much, Steve ---------------- P.S.- BTW, how much longer do I have to be labeled a "Smolt"? Is there a graduation process such as becoming a Big Smolt, Super Smolt, Releasable Smolt or Jack Salmon or anything before becoming a "Returning Adult"? Or becoming "Spawned Out"?(jk)

[This message has been edited by Backbouncer1 (edited 03-07-2000).]

Heres my reply to backbouncer1.
Iam a commercial fisherman in alaska and russia. We do not harvest salmon or steelhead but I think my explaination might clear some things up with you and others, maybe. Bottom line on this whole Endanger Species act is a joke. Because it excludes a lot of commercial fleets that fish here and in alaska and abroad. I have posted befor what some of the trawlers are capable of doing that would make the indians net a joke but i wont get in to that again. You have to realize that the ESA(endangered species act) was supported by most of the large commercial fleets that are based here in washington.And also many of the commercial fishermen have helped passed that law in a different way . Reason for that is it benifits the commercial industry in more ways then you will know. What you dont know is that the NMFS and NOAA have heavily monitered the commercial industry in alaska, as best as they can which isn't always the best. With the threat of the commercial industry being shut down and more regulations passed signing and agreeing to the ESA actually was a help in a sense it kept the trawlers and seiner etc. in bussiness. it goes a lot deeper then what you see on the surface. Basically it is a way to help the endangerd species and that includes the commercial fleets. Dick in a sense is also right that there is nothing you can do.
Example was i696, sorry to say it will never pass in this state as long money talks. I heard on this board at one time how that i696 should pass and that the economy will not be hurt because sportfishermen bring in more money(tourism,guides,equipment, etc.)then commercial any way, I forgot who said this but show me proof, Lets talk straight facts not something we think. I can show you a sample breakdown of what a fishing company will produce for the economy here in wa. ak. or. id. and ca. I know how frustrating it is to be on a river and not be able to catch fish due to low returns . There are souloutions to this but there has to be cooperation among sport fishermen/women. yet to be seen. Also NSIA may be powerful but I see it as a little pup in a wolf pack. my opinion. You see , every one here appeals to sport fishermen/women to help pass these laws and to bitch and moan and throw good ideas, why not appeal to the moral majority. everybody. Dont wine rather explain and throw out facts and good ideas not anger and heat of the moment crap that no one believes.
look at bob here he appeals to all of his clients and he is very popular on this web(granted its his) he gets hes messege in a way every one agrees to and people defend him when one attacks him, you need to be able to do that to the general public before you can get support for your causes and mine and everybody elses.

divers- with all due respect, I take a little exception to parts of your post, which is addressed back to me. I hope the last sentence of your 2nd paragraph is pointed toward other complaints-"Don't whine, rather....good ideas..."- & not my post. My whole post was one big idea to do something about a wrong situation! You also dis the throwing around of "facts", which you did quite a bit of w/o any reliable supporting evidence. That's why I suggested such as camcorders, long range lense cams, & wittness' legal affidavits for verifiable evidense on Treaty issue violations. Also, my Q back to Dick, & to you or anyone, still stands- why do you see no hope for change? I'm sure more BB readers than just me would like to hear a credible basis for that attitude (not saying you're wrong- just want to know the "facts").- Steve - P.S.- While I do have genuine care about the unfortunate situation for the sportfishermen of the Oly. Penn, thus my attempts to help out, I also have another motive in wanting credibale info. about this status quo- There are rumblings that Oregon's Siletz Indian Tribe will again attempt to gain exclusive Oregon coastal fishing rights with Treaties as their leverage. The sportfishermen in our area might benefit from your experiences up there in a potential fight for our rights. We could all help each other! Tight lines.

[This message has been edited by Backbouncer1 (edited 03-08-2000).]

I have been with this since before the BOLT decision. I have seen this talk for ALOT of years. The tribes have the best federal law attorneys the goverment has. If it came down to the last steehead and salmon the tibes would get them beleive me. The only thing we can do is try to stop the abuse on BOTH sides. I AM NOT A TRIBAL MEMBER.

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Tight Lines!!

Backbouncer 1

If you want more information regarding treaty fisheries in WA, start with browsing recent posts by a very knowledgeable and articulate individual who calls himself "Salmo G". He has a recent topic posting called 'more about treaties', and has posted on other related topics; browse his posts using the 'profile' feature. Whether you agree or disagree with him, you'll come away with a lot more information to base a decision on.

As for ESA and the Olympic Peninsula; thats an easy one - there are no ESA species currently listed for peninsula streams except for sockeye (Lk. Ozette? Lk Crescent?). ESA listings are for specific stocks of salmon/steelhead. Presently, Puget Sound chinook, Hood Canal chum, several Columbia R. stocks, and Snake R. stocks are listed.

Bottom line, it is highly unlikely that the Treaties with WA State Tribes will be overturned or amended in any way without the consent or substantial negotiation with those tribes, and that is not likely.

Backbouncer 1, Sounds like you got it all figured out. Your post sounds sincere but I believe you're getting peoples hopes up. To put it into the real world your idea doesn't have a chance. You're not going to be able to change anything and that is reality. I believe that you do have the right to your own opinion but I don't agree with it. It doesn't mean that your opinion should not be considered though. If you're fighting a opponet and lost 1000 rounds what makes you think the 1001 round is going to be differant? This is not the correct answer, working together is. Jim Marquis

The reason I696 didn't pass, and the reason none of this will ever change, is that sportsman as a group can't organize themselves enough to speak in a powerful voice. Money talks, [Bleeeeep!] walks. The commercial fishing lobby has lots of the former. The tribes have lots of it too, regardless of their unemployment rates. All we as sportsman have is the latter. Their are some fishing groups out their that are headed the right direction, but they are still small, as is their voice and pocketbooks. Would someone please take Gates or Allen out and get them into fishing!! UnfortuNETly, another problem with organizing fishermen is that there is a lot of us (not on this board) that don't abide by the rules. The same goes for hunting. Hunting as a recreation is slowly dieing all over the country because sportsman can't organize enough to make their voice heard. To tell you the truth, the stuff I see people do in the woods every year make me wonder who exactly I'm fighting for. Am I fighting for the guys who have four 2 point bucks hanging in camp opening day in a 3 point minimum area? Am I fighting for the guy spreading cracked corn all over the week before turkey opener(seen'em both)? Am I fighting for the guys jigging for fall chinook in the Columbia, snagging 70% of their fish? Am I fighting for the guy that clubs 2 steelhead in a closed area during salmon season(seen this, too)? This is why the cause IS HOPELESS.

[This message has been edited by backlash2 (edited 03-08-2000).]

Backlash & others- I'm beginning to understand your cynisism & feelings of hopelessness in regards to changing Treaty staus quos. Sad. But I don't see all as hopeless. I had other suggestions for reducing illegal overharvest & wastefulness. But it takes effort & organization as I mentioned. I sense both apathy & complacency based on the posts I've read here. This is the sportfishermen's collective Achilles Heel! Scroll back to a post on 2/28 - "Fishermen's Alliance Meeting" by Beezer (Marc Marcantonio). His call to gather for efforts toward a sportfishermen's alliance to look out for your interests had not one reply! Nada! "O". With this kind of complacency not much will get done for our causes. Fortunately, there are some people & organizations that help, such as the mentioned NW Steelheaders Assoc. & NSIA. Anyone out there have any upbeat responses to my suggetions? -- Backlash, I see Paul Allen at Blazer games. He's definitely into hoops & Jimmy Hendrix; so he can't be all bad for a billionaire. Seems like he could get into fishing (he runs his Big Boat around Cabo & behind the Baha Penn.- I figure he must do some fishng there). But Gates? I don't think so; wonder if he even knows there's fish out in front of his Lk. Wash. fortress?. (BTW- What the heck is Wally Walker doing to the Sonics?)- Steve

[This message has been edited by Backbouncer1 (edited 03-08-2000).]

Give me Paul's number, I'll call him.
P.S. We're on the wrong BB for this, but I agree, off with Wally's head!!

Backbouncer, sorry no it was not posted to your comments rather in general.
but backlash is so right, money does talk. you are living in a city where fishing is a lage indusrty. not just fishing but every thing that goes with it, freighters, rail,trucks and jobs. Yes microsoft and boeing produce jobs but so does the commercial industry. the commercial fishing has something that sport fishermen will never have is the money and the support. How many people can sportfishing provide jobs for and still donate realisticlly. Money is where it all lies. when was the last time you heard a sport fishing foundation giving money for colleges new bulidings and providing jobs for the people of washington and the rest of the west coast and east coast totaling more then 100 million dollars at once. Fact and proof. call uOfw fisheries school, the waterfront pier, especially the new bell street pier.and dozens of othre local and national bussiness. the sport industry does contribute but it can nop mach the dollar amount of the commercial industry. Fact, during the voting of I696 , supporters were telling the state how california, florida etc. had banned nets and now their runs are thrieving. true but with more states banning nets it gives the commercial industry a more of a reason not to net, its call demand. People all over the us want fresh fish, and it comes from here and alaska. more bans, more nets for the future. It is a good cause that people want to stop the nets, I see the positive in a lot of ways too. but it is a dream, for now. the best way to deal with this is to educate. It is not only nets doing the damage. Population has not helped one bit, logging new construction, the list goes on. I understand the anger but I feel you will lose every battle when it comes to banning the nets here in washington and alaska. BB1 your more then welcome to tour any vessel and watch footage and learn about the commercial netting any time in april after the "a" season is over.

just a thought i had, with the native americans being sole nations unto themselves, then why in the world do we as white/black/yellow americans support them in our welfare state system.
we as americans do not support any other sole nationality in our welfare system, why do we do the indians.
they recieve pitance's from the b. of indian affairs, from alihol and tabacco sales, gambling on reservation and even fireworks sales. why in the heck do we have to support the soverengn poeple of the american indain nations with welfare too?
if the indaina nations are working to better themselves, good for them, i i heard where the nation of a tribe outside of washington actually built an large home and farm for a big player in the tribes affairs and all the money came out of the profits. but the rest of the tribes people are in such poor finances that the can not meet low income standards, ie: welfare!!! an guess whom pays for it buddy, you me and every sucker on the water and or sitting in a duck blaind or on a hot deer trail.

thnaks so much for my time to speak; here me now.
if they are a soverengn nation, then let the goverment loan them money and they will have to repay, just like any other world nation.

elmtree; ie: woody

White man invented guns?? Guns eliminate overharvest!!! Get the drift!! Fish ON!!

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WE DON'T NEED A WAR, WE NEED TO GET THE SOVERENGN NATIONS TO FEND FOR THEMSELVES. THEN IF THEY WANT TO TRADE FOR RIGHTS AS CITIZEN AND GET BACK ON OUR WELFARE SYSTEM THEN, MAYBE THEY CAN, WELL LIKE STOP OR SLOW DOWN THE HARVEST OF UNNEED FISH AND ANIMALS EXCEPT FOR CEREMONIAL REASON'S.
I MEAN THIS IS A FAIR AN EVEN, THEY ARE NOT GAUARNTEED WELFARE WITH THEIR NATIVE RIGHTS ACCORDING TO ANY TREATY SIGNED OR NOT.
LET ME BE BLUNT. BE OF THE PEOPLE AND FOR THE PEOPLE OF THESE UNITED STATES, NOT OF THESE UNITED STATES AND SORENGN IDIAN NATIONS!!!!!!

In response to the inital post questioning how tribes "escape" the Federal ESA:

The US government's response to the ESA and Tribes can be summed up in a Secretarial order issued on June 5, 1997 by the secretaries of Commerce and Interior defining the special relationship between treaty-Indian tribes, the federal government and the Endangered Species Act.

The secretarial order says the government "shall give deference to tribal conservation and management plans for tribal trust resources that govern activities on Indian lands and address the conservation needs of the listed species."

It also states that, “Indian lands are not federal public lands or part of the public domain, and are not subject to federal public land laws. They were retained by tribes or were set aside for tribal use pursuant to treaties, statutes, judicial decisions, executive orders or agreements. These lands are managed by Indian tribes in accordance with tribal goals and objectives.”

- Therefore, it is clear how the US federal government treats the issue. (Amazing what you can learn when writing a term paper).

Hope this was hopeful.

Jersey Fresh


[This message has been edited by Jersey Fresh (edited 03-15-2000).]

I have to say that the nets in the river suck, they are in your face after tough days with out alot of fish around. But the non native fishery is taking alot of the fish, I see dead natives every day at the ramps on the west end. I hear Oh I just wanted one for dinner alot. On any given day hundreds of "ones for dinner" are dead at the ramp. I think we should work on the non native fishery first, The whole state should be catch and relese wild fish period, the only way we are going to get the nets out of the rivers is if we stop killing wild fish ourselves.

How many fish do you catch each year that dont have net marks on them? I am hard pressed to catch a clean fish, be it nets or seals.

i posted this idea awhile back.your answer to the indian fishing rights could be impacted by the kenniwick man!. since he was here first any decendedts that he might of had i.e-which race. would determine do the natives have there same rights if they were not the first people here?