Since Global Warming didn't describe what temperature readings reflected we then went to Climate Change and that apparently wasn't working so now we are on to the next phase, Climate Disruption.

I know I'd believe 2% of the scientists and 600 GOP talking heads before I'd listen to the other 98% of the scientists.

And you wonder why GOP voters are generally considered stupidasfuck.

Let me guess, Hank...now you'll be voting GOP not just for the "economy", but for climate change, too?

Fish on...

Todd

I realize that this is probably a bit long for many board members, however it does provide insight to the dilemma that the supporters of Global Warming face.

HERE

I looked it up, and Climate Disruption has been aptly defined as acute environmental changes resulting from those who believe the Global Warming farce opening their mouths and lots of hot air shooting out all at once.

Looks like FP is vying for most obnoxious poster of the year award. However, there is no award.

Global __________[ insert the blank] = monetary & population control.
It may or may not be real, but rest assured it will be used and abused. That's why so many elites and politicians are all over it like white on rice. Global __________[ insert the blank] has already been and will continue to be, easily twisted & manipulated 1 trillion ways from Sunday to suit agendas.

Remember Al Gore sold his company to Big Oil. Lifetime supply of jet fuel to fly around the world telling others how to live. It's a beautiful thing.

But hey, I ain't having kids...so fvck it.

That's why we're gearing up for WWIII. We got to get rid of a couple of billion people in order to save planet Earth.

It's just simply the right thing to do!

Well-just as long as we don't get rid of any bankers or debtors that is. But everyone else needs to go.

FP is going to have to up his obnoxious posts if he is to have a chance at that award.

Did not we have some kind of contest like that within the last couple of years?

Cliff Mass will be going to Hell along with all other SocialistAtheistFascistMericaHaters.

The Earth being flat was never...ever..."settled science"...it wasn't science at all, it was a complete denial or ignorance of anything at all like science, just like the anti-climate change whacknuts and the "Earth is 6500 years old" crowds.

Fish on...

Todd

This is the problem with trying to have any sort of actual intelligent conversation with the whacknuts who believe that stuff...they confuse "science is continually growing" with "I will ignore all science, facts, and evidence to the contrary and belive whatever I want and call it a "debate" ".

It's not a "debate"...it's scientists and thinkers on one side trying to figure out what is happening, and idiots and fools on the other trying to obfuscate and ignore everything.

Fish on...

Todd

Cliff mass is a well known liberal . His blog is fun to read and he is the first to admit that they all have trouble more than two weeks out. You can argue all you want with the man caused global warming crowd . It's more fun to watch them drive away instead of bike and talk about all the miles the log traveling for work and pleasure. The jack off gesture was invented for this class of people.

I have always enjoyed Cliff Mass' opinions on weather.

I did notice in the treatise posted above, that he mentioned a correlation of atmospheric particulate matter (coming from the burning of coal in China) with a the cessation of, Global Warming, Climate Change, Climate Disruption. In his treatise, he later said that Chinese coal consumption, (I paraphrase), could not be the solution of a global problem due to locale pollution.

Doubt me? Read it yourself

Why so much denial? Global warming is a fact.

Cliff Mass always makes a very clear the distinction between predicting weather and tracking long term climate change. Weather changes in the short term and he does say it's very difficult to predict more that two weeks out. Climate change is a long term trend that can be documented by records. Climatology and weather prediction are two SEPARATE things. A hot day in the summer or a cold day in the winter is NOT climate change. Seems obvious but for some the distinction needs pointing out.

Denial?

Is Global Warming, a fact?

It was a 'fact'.

Yes it was, 15 years ago.

In the 70's global cooling was a 'fact'.

Best documentary I watched this past year:



This one looks good, too:

Y'all won the debate with overwhelming, undeniable scientific evidence and now we all agree that Catastrophic Human caused Global Warming exists and we only have 30 years to do something about it.

Anybody here want to be the first to admit that Hitler was right all along?

And if not what should we do? How do we save the planet from human beings?

I'm sure everyone here understands global climatology well enough to know whether man's actions are causing the planet to warm.

Either that, or it's like debating whether God exists..............nobody knows, but nobody has the sack to admit it, either.

I think the preponderance of evidence suggests we're making the planet warmer, but I'm not really qualified to tell good evidence from meaningless evidence. I'm pretty sure nobody else here is, either. In fact, considering our predictive accuracy in the past at guessing the global climate 50 years down the road, I'm not sure there is anyone, anywhere, who's qualified.

I figure it will be like everything else we've done to sh!t in our own bed over the last few hundred years - we'll find a way to get by, with the wealthy barely noticing and the poor taking it on the chin.

The Earth will get by just fine. We might not, but a planet doesn't care how f'n hot it is. IMO, we've started a ball rolling we might not be able to stop - but I'm not going to wet the bed over it. If I lived in Miami, I might consider picking up a box of Depends, though.

I'm all for everyone believing in man-made global warming to do something to help the planet by killing themselves................or by killing a couple global-warming disbelievers instead.

Whichever.

Why am I not surprised? I stated facts and you call me ignorant.
The answer to my question is, I have come to expect such a lack of critical thinking from you.

I thought they reported that the ice cap actually increased from 2012 to 2013 by 500K square miles?

Thank you for that.

You might find this interesting. http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/10/22/nasa-announces-new-record-growth-of-antarctic-sea-ice-extent/

and this, http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/03/01/global-cooling-compilation/

I mostly agree with the Cliff Mass blog that was linked to above.

The jury is still out on the magnitude of the issue. We have been wrong so many times, on so many issues. It would be a supreme display of hubris to believe that we are now to be certain on this issue.

Man it poured down rain today. Warmer air can hold more moisture. But the naysayers say it isn't so.

Greenland has more ice now than when Eric the Red moved there.

And when the Siberians walked to North America they did it on dry land. We know that sea level, for example, has risen and fallen hundreds of feet just in the last 15,000 years or so.

At some point, who gives a rat's rump what the cause is. How much land is going to lost (at least for the short term) with a few foot rise? You can argue all millennium about the causes but when the water comes in the front door something needs to be done.

Anybody with functional eyes can see the decline in snow and ice cap on the Cascades and Rockies. That glacial ice is where local summer water comes from. What plans are being made for declining glacial sources of water supplies?

By being more concerned with the cause than the effect we do nothing.

J.G. Please state your source. I did a quick Google and the first 12 sites to pop up were all stated that Greenland is very rapidly losing its ice.

Of course those were by those pesky scientists not political propagandists.

Take a look at Glacier Park. Almost all of Alaska's glaciers, etc.

Believe who you want politicians or scientists. Hope its warm down there with you head under that sand.


Here's the first article to pop up. I know it's not to be trusted, because its science . . .

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/13/scienc...s-say.html?_r=0

I could cite sources all day long, but they are not to be trusted because they weren't printed in Huffpo, Mother Jones or the Rolling Stone right? I could cite sources all day long, but they are not to be trusted because they weren't printed in Foxnews, The Blaze or Breitbart right?

Maybe something Australian will suffice?

It ain't Faux News

Maybe this one?

Or this one?

Please learn something today - Ice Ages 101

The point being is that we DO NOT KNOW if its manmade or not. Or if its even happening at all. Why? Because the earth is 4 billion years old and our measureable sample size and data range is just too small to be considered accurate. Not to mention flawed models and hypotheses. All that really matters is that it can be politicized while making trillions in profit while exerting more and more control over the masses (see my previous post). Did you know that Global _______ is now a 100+ billion dollar year industry in the US alone?

No science ever is settled (see Flat Earth Society). None. That's the nature of Science...it's never 100% certain.

Both sides in this debate are acting like complete know-it-all idiots. We really, really need to teach more Science and Stats theory, because its obvious the common man cannot understand the basic principles. SCIENCE = Never 100% certain. Stats can be manipulated for mass consumption Kool-Aid drinkin'. Drink it up boys, just stay the FVCK outta my wallet (which is where this is headed next).

FYI - I'm not a denier or buyer in this case. I just know stats, models and sample sizes. The IPCC has been caught fudging the numbers which never looks good. Again, stats don't lie but statisticians do....to fit agendas.

Lastly, the 800 page Fed report that just came out does not propose ONE solution. I'll leave it up to your imagination as to why that is.

It is my understanding that Greenland was a heck of a lot more hospitable when the Vikings first settled it around 1000 CE. But, a cooling cycle destroyed the agricultural productivity of the colonies so they died out.

If you actually believe that the more than 9,500 peer reviewed studies done in more than 40 countries are all somehow skewed to fit an agenda there is absolutely no sense discussing this with you.

The refrences you listed are from a very small minority. The vast majority of studies are very clear that we are warming and that man is causing it.

Hell even GWB admitted that man is causing global warming after he met with the National Academy of Scientists. How could you conclude otherwise when you consider how much coal and oil we burn on this planet today.


Of course there is no one solution. Why would you expect there would be?



Nick: I read your links. please read this

one.http://www.wunderground.com/news/agreement-manmade-global-warming-20130516

Fair enough argument Dave. I read your link and it’s worth a look for those that have not. I'm open to all data and ideas here and I have not drawn any personal conclusions at this point (again because I am stats skeptic...not a Global _______ denier or buyer).

My only question: What were the causes for the other periods of cooling and warming that occurred before the "industrial revolution" (mass man made CO2 starting point) and why?

The Earth is a complex, living, breathing entity with natural cycles of events. To say those cycles are a result of man...well before man reached this point in evolution....is dubious at best. Again, we are framing Global _______ against a very small back drop of time (small data range) and that is an inherently dangerous game to play.

All I know is imma strikin' it rich once these glaciers melt away and reveal their booty! Gotta look for the silver lining in everything...

Flat Earthers, too...

Nick,

I'm sure you know there is already a group mining the face of several receding Alaska glaciers. Portage glacier was one you could drive right up to in 1980. Today you have to take a boat to cross a lake to see what's left of it.

Also note the arctic passage is now open a few weeks a year and many nations are arguing about right to the passage and related issues.


See what those tree hugger hippies at the DOD think.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303330204579250522717106330

Are you fookin' kidding me BU? You do understand what the "flat earth society" means right? You did pass the third grade right? It was so long ago for you, I'll give you a short refresher: It means old world Europe believed the Earth was flat until it was proven otherwise.

Science is changing all the time with new data and information. IT IS never settled. As point proven, look back to the 70's when we were all gonna die in the next ice age.

Yer' talkin' to one of the most scienty scientists on this board. I live science & engineering and conduct statistical design for experiments every. single. day.

Don't be so obtuse ya' old goat or this whipper snapper will hand you your ignorant ass on an ascot. Thanks for playin' player.

Thanks Dave. I've heard of folks starting to do this, but this is the first I've actually read up on it. PS...I'm a fellow tree hugger at heart too. We only get one Earth.

Dude! I ain't no right winger bruddah and you know this! Being that you are very old and I was born in 75', all I can remember was the great concern for next ice age. You tell me...ifin' your mush upstairs can still recall back that far.

I ain't got no time to tie these days - busy making boxes and doin' science / engineering stuff.

Here's a sample of some previously posted work. Suck it.

Creepers

Herring Tube Flies

As far as catching fish, my last two trips to the coast have been strike outs. You got me there. Of course it could just be coincidence that I didn't catch anything after shaking your filthy Liberal hand - but I doubt it.

Again, I said I'm neither a denier or buyer on Global ______. You just gonna lump a feller in ain't ya?

My filthy Independent hand has all of those fished plus Marlin, Sailfish, Wahoo, Bluefin, Blackfin, Albacore, Snappers, Groupers, Cobia and on and on and on. 2 trips doesn't concern me. Getting the stink off does!

If by skill, you mean pairing white socks with sandals....I'll pass thank you.

This is kind of a boring read
http://courses.washington.edu/pcc589/2009/readings/Dahl_Jensen.pdf

Basically says that the temperature in Greenland in 1000 ad was 1 degree kelvin (1.8 degree farenheit)warmer then it is today(2008). I'm not saying that there isn't any manmade casues that effect the climate, I just think that there is some exageration for the benefit of extracting money for studies.

Ah Nick, you have been sucked into BU's charming ways....

Trans fats are bad, no wait, maybe they aren't as bad as we thought. Science is always changing. But just to be on the safe side, we should blow up the economy and all build wind turbines in our yards.

oh this one is really good...

He is pretty charming for an ol' goat that works too much.
It's all good though...

Nice graphs Nate. It's interesting how fuzzy (random) the data gets near the end of the last graph. One thing I've heard that could cause that is Volcanic activity. Some are saying that the short, current cooling trend over the past few years is a result of upper atmosphere dust from recent eruptions. I don't know if that's true to not, but it seems plausible. Another one is Sun activity. Heavy solar blasts create a lot of radiation, so that makes sense too.

I don't know what to think (this is common for me), which is why I'm on the fence as to the cause.

Lord guys just Google something like global temperature during the Roman Empire a wealth of historical data rolls out. In fact the thing I find most amazing as recent as that is ( in earth history not human ) several Roman seaports are now miles from the sea.

For reading on the Atlantic Escalator:

http://www.geol.umd.edu/~jmerck/geol100/lectures/33.html

I blame global warming on those Italian nuns that performed an exorcism on an Italian glacier that was threatening a small mountain village. That was in the late 1700's and ended the little ice age and started global warming.

I blame the phuggin Interwebz fer turnin all you yella-bellies into phuggin geniuses

Is it possible in this day and age to not be an expert on every topic?

Well yes NOFISH, you be an example of that.

This guy sums it up better than I could.

Skeptic

ORDINARY
There are regular things, which we all pretty much understand completely. 2 + 2 = 4.

SPECIALIZED
There are complicated things, which a small % of the population truly understand, but we all believe: DNA fingerprints/sequencing is admissible for evidence

COMPLEX
Then there are things that are so complex that even the most elite folks in the field have lots of specific knowledge, but the complexities of the systems elude complete closed-form-solutions: How does the brain work? How does the climate work, and what if any changes might have ill effects? How does the economy work and what changes create jobs??

COMPLEX stuff is what we're talking about here, and as a result if your standard for decision making is perfect knowledge, then you never take any action on a brain tumor, or to fix the economy, or to fix the climate. Because NOTHING in this space is -- likely in our lifetime -- to be known in the closed-form way you hope.

If your standard is that "the jury is still out" and that it's a "supreme display of hubris" to take action based on the recommendations from the overwhelming majority of the best educated people on the subject???? Then I sure hope you never get a brain tumor, because you'll never decide to take any action about it -- because the science (and treatments) are unsettled.

Next time we have an economic upturn or downturn, I hope you don't post that you know why it happened, or what we should do to promote jobs growth, because the jury is out on that, you supremely hubristic blowhards.

In these situations, I choose to listen to the best doctors, scientists, and economists, and contribute my energy to the solutions that I think are viable... Be it surgery, pollution control, or tax policy.

Nick, what i find interesting about that last graph, is that it is holding somewhat steady.. if you look at the past history, there were giant up and downswings, never, through the last 600 million years, has there been a situation like on that graph... yes, it goes up and down, but the line is fairly flat for the duration of the time, vs the past history...

maybe that is what is screwing things up? maybe earth isnt going through its natural cycle like it has been the last 600 million years, as if something has been restricting it for the last 10? maybe that is increasing volcanic activity, and earthquakes, and screwy weather with massive storms?

maybe its something we are doing to keep the earth from its wild swings like it was used to? because for the last 10k years, which humans have obviously been around, its doing something that it has never (record wise) done before...

or maybe, it is what its designed to do, because we really know jack sh!t about planets, look at how much we know about our own earth...

Global Warming is nonsense, but that is just my opinion...

It’s ok to question Irish - particularly when Scientists or Politicians claim to be stating fact (regardless of the topic). It's ok to take mindful care when reviewing evidence before drawing conclusions. I think you understand the ramifications of not doing so.

That's why one seeks a second option in the case of a brain tumor. It's not denying that the tumor is real. Its doing due diligence to get a variety of opinions before drawing any premature conclusions as the best course of action to take. It's not hubris, its being mindfully intelligent.

Right!

A second opinion is awesome.

So if you got 1000 "second opinions" and 990 of them (which is probably conservative) said it was a tumor, and you needed to have it removed, what would you do?

IR your are wasting your breath, but of course you knew that I'm sure.

Some of these guys would ignore the 999 cancer specialist and go see the one quack that their particular political party seems to embrace at the moment.

You can take comfort knowing that thorse on the other side include Hank and Nate no matter what name he goes by today. That in itself almost assures that you are right.

Well it looks like the rubber will meet the road in the next year. Supposedly our govenor is going to propose a carbon tax on emissions that will raise the price of gas .95 to $1.17 a gallon. He wants to be the greenest state in the union. But I am sure all the believers all ready have moved to Seattle proper and use only mass transit to go fish Just backing up all the evidence with doing their part as good little citizens should.

Fair enough Irish and good point. In that case, if the evidence is quantifiable and irrefutable, then I would listen. I don't think we are there yet with man-made Global ______. I agree that something is going on, but not necessarily that it’s our fault (or within the realm that we can control through legislation).

Well now, just how did you derive that thought from this,



As far as treating a brain tumor, my oncologist suggests that I should always accept new science, and hope.

However Baracks, Death panel is about to curtail my Health Care. Evidently I am older than KK.

come on Dave, first and foremost, im not part of any political party, screw Obama, screw Romney, screw Hillary, Palin, Biden, McCain, screw ALL OF THEM..

the fact is, is that throughout recorded history, there have been multiple periods of glacial melting, and re glaciating, not just once, not just twice, but hundreds of times...

hey, heres an idea, has anyone checked the temperature of the moon the last say, 500 years? has it increased and or decreased? because, the Sun is a gas giant, and weird things happen with them, like massive heat waves and gamma bursts that could raise the temperature of planets near it...

i am a member on a page about Astronomy, and the last solar flares that have been happening, are quite interesting, they have upclose shots of the sun showing the flame plume that spreads out... that intense heat, has to hit somewhere, which it does, and we have proof from in Solar Storms that knock out power grids due to radiation exposure and whatnot...

i choose to look at all aspects of problems, not just 1 side like alot of people choose to do... historical facts, are historical facts and scientific data, you can either accept them, or ignore them, but the fact still remains, that its been going on for millions, even BILLIONS of years...

when the earth first formed, over 4 billion years ago, there were large pools of lava from meteors and asteroids slamming into the earth at extreme velocities, so what happened? why is there ice now? should we restore the planet to what it was when it started?

its in my opinion, the cycle of the earth, we just happen to be on it for the ride...

as far as the political aspect of that, the US Government cant even find a god damn airplane, bigfoot, or Elvis's ghost, so im not listening to a damn thing they have to say... its not like they do anything right in the first place...

you better watch it spreading rumors about me John, bring over your little hippy piss test kit and ill gladly pee on you for you...

and i actually read quite well if you havent noticed...

and how do you know what education i have? because GUY told you? yeah, hes someone i would trust

that right there is exactly what people do when they are confronted with things they cant explain, they resort to "fvck you, you are an idiot, blah blah blah"... they do it with religion, they do it with climate, they do it with politics...

glad you have found your niche in society bro...

ignorance is when you assume you know something, when you dont (what you are doing)

ignorance is also assuming that someone is wrong, and is something they arent, because some little slimy rat told you so...

John, you hang out with hypocrites and thieves, so i really dont care what you have to say...

go have another drink ya lush...

Ahh...so precious...a lover's quarrel. {{{ Hugs all around }}}

nobody but you can pull of senile, old, arrogant, bitch like you can John, you have that perfected...

pretty soon dipsh!ts like you are going to say that global warming starts every day when the sun rises...

oh yeah, if you didnt notice, we were having a just fine debate, no name calling, just sharing facts and opinions and whatnot, until you had to open that gaping boner holster under your nose...

like i said, go have another drink... you have drunk perfected as well, and you call me a drug addict because i smoke a half a gram of weed a night

GTFOOH with that nonsense...

and stop spreading lies, or i will...

Half a gram a night ? That's a half oz a month? Well that answers a bunch of questions. Let me guess on disability and I am paying for it too?

Stand and Deliver BU! F'n poetry...

Evo (Nate),

What you mean is, it was a good debate - until you piped in. Wherever you go, your baggage follows you. Your baggage = no job, not looking for a job, no intent to ever have a job, no education, no skills, leech off your mother and girlfriend (for whom I do have pity; she must believe you're a fixer-upper), but you do have a working computer, an internet connection, and a knowledge base consisting of Google and Wikipedia. Yet you expect to be taken seriously about anything?

Hint: fix your baggage and everything else will take care of itself.

i FIX computers Einstein...

i have plenty of education, and plenty of skills, why do you think that my uncle has to spread rumors about me to people like John?

because hes intimidated, and jealous

i could make 5 dollars a week, 500 a week, 500000000 a week, and it still wouldnt matter, YOU will still always think you are better than me, smarter than me, that im an idiot, that i know nothing, call me names, say this, say that, whatever...

dont be intimidated Salmo, im just one of the guys, that likes to BS with the rest of the guys, and until either of you show me a PHD in Climatology, you can keep your BS statements about my education on the subject to yourself...

oh, and no reading books either, because thats the same as reading Google, reading is reading... if you are going to be smart, you must will yourself to all knowledge like God himself...

That's not true. How many hours a week do you spend fixing computers RH, Nate, Evo? Show me a paycheck stub, prove that you don't leach off your mother and girlfriend, and my respect for you will skyrocket. Minimum wage would suffice cuz I have zero respect for leeches.

I don't think anybody here, I sure as hell don't, care what your uncle says about you to KK. I doubt KK does either. You've established a reputation here as someone who doesn't work, doesn't want to work - even when offered a car to help you get to work - and wouldn't take a job if offered one, who lives with his mom and lets his student GF, who actually has a job, support him. I didn't invent this. I got it all from your posts.

Show us that you're not a worthless bum and discover what it's like to be respected as a man. It's that simple.

Sg

well then you are a complete buffoon Steve, how can my girlfriend work if she leaves here at 5am every morning and doesnt show up till NOW because she is in class and rides the bus to Seattle every day?

and if noone cared, noone would say SH!T about it, you know what, fvck it, bring it up again, and ill call him myself and John can deal with the mess he started by opening his fat mouth about something he knows nothing about...

and noone offered me a car, so again, your WRONG..

ive also been working plenty doing quite a bit of stuff for people the last few weeks, still gotta fish tho ya know?

and as far as a paycheck stub?

show me your 1099's from the last 10 years..

show me your weekly pay checks from the agency you work for..

tell me when the last time your wife was on the rag...

show me all of your receipts for your cost of living...

or dont, because its none of my business in the first place... you think im going to be upset with what you think of me? well sorry to inform you, but i have plenty of friends that think otherwise, and plenty more i told to fvck off because they dont click with what im trying to do...

again, gotta get ready for fishing, later...

NASA reported today that the Great Red Spot on Jupiter is now the smallest ever observed. In the 1800's When it was first measured three Earths could fit in the storm but now it's only the size of one Earth. Scientists think this is due to unknown atmospheric changes.

I'm pretty sure if we take the best and brightest atmospheric scientists, give them several billion dollars, they can figure out how it's due to human beings and why only democrats can fix it.

We've been constantly fleeced by a far lower grade of rulers, and bureaucrats, and scientist's, than our "best and brightest" that it has become a mockery of intelligence.

However I am sure that if we deliver the cash they will deliver an answer.

Or we can listen to a Republican discuss how similar the atmosphere of a gas giant like Jupiter is to Earth's............for free.

WARNING! WARNING!

Straw man alert!

Naw the Republicans would just give Wall Street the billions to fix it.

SRAW MAN ALERT!

Naw , your claims are farcical.

Consider that your adolescent in office is constant in perjury, and has feed billions of taxpayers dollars to his slop funds, in hopes of reelecting his supporters, not to mention malfeasance in office while he pours billions into the troughs of the pigs.

yay! bby's first thesaurus

Every person is entitled to an opinion.

god bless america

cycle of the Earth...

so now with this scientific evidence, is it pollution and humans causing "Global Warming", or is it possibly infact these very things releasing the massive amounts of heat out into the atmosphere? you put a heater in a room, after a while, that room is gonna get hot.. you put multiple heaters, well, you get the point...

Global Warming

http://dailycaller.com/2014/06/11/study-...global-warming/

edit: heres a few more on the subject...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/a...ly-thought.html

http://phys.org/news/2014-06-major-west-antarctic-glacier-geothermal.html

Facts have a funny way of destroying a Good story. I can attest to this type of scenario with lots of personal recent experience....

I like what this data means to our summertime river levels, in general.

http://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2014/07/melt-out-day-in-paradise.html