I just read thru the Spinning Reel post thread here on the BB and linked to the Shimano and Cabella Catalog net sites from there. I hadn't noticed the prices for some upper echalon reels and rods for some time until today. In that thread someone mentioned the Shimano Symetry at about $80 being a great reel, and a couple others that were a little nicer but more expensive. I was astounded to see Cabellas prices on those other spinning reels; first I see one for $299 and then their newest one, the Shimano Stella, at about $600 !! Does anybody actually buy these and why? I'm tempted to say maybe the guys that buy needless Rolex watches, but that would sound flipant.- I used to buy Sage casting rods years ago before they went fly oriented and later the better G Loomis rods, both well over $200, wrongly thinking it would help my guiding business. After losing a few in various ways I have in the last few years bought $100 dollar rods such as Lamiglass' on sale. And I have continued to get better at hooking fish with these reasonable rods. Now the best steelhead/salmon casting rods are $400 to $500 ! I honestly don't think I would hook any more fish with those overpriced rods than with a good $100 to $150 dollar rod. Obviously guys are paying those prices or they would not have gotten so high. Why?? A big plus with a $125 rod is that you can relax about taking it fishing; while catching just as many fish! I just don't get the point of fishing with a $1,000.00 dollar rod/reel combo.- And the best large OB motors with jetpumps are now over $10,000.00 ! Because guys are willing to pay that when they shouldn't be? A good motorcycle (Yamaha makes both OB's & motorcycles) with the highest tech 4 valve per cylinder, electronic fuel injected motor plus all the other expensive to manufacture parts (frame, gears, drivechain/driveshaft, axels, mag-wheels, tires, disc brakes, fantsy shocks, lights, gauges, etc.) sell for less than an OB with a prop! Because the motorcycle demographics won't/can't pay as high of prices for them as the OB/fishing tackle demographics can & think they have to. The hardcore flyfishing demographics have driven fly rods/reels even higher than casting/spinning gear. It's the same pricipal as with women's vs men's clothes and cosmetics. Women's are more expensive because they feel forced to pay high prices due to vanity. Men won't pay it so aren't charged as much. More complex than simple supply & demand, but don't know what it is. However, my point here is that maybe if all us fishermen only purchased the "catch just as many fish & don't worry about scratchin' it" $125 rods & reels for a couple years, the $450 rods would come down to a reasonably fair $225. That's the reel truth! What do you think Gary? Anyone?

[This message has been edited by Reel Truth (edited 05-07-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Reel Truth (edited 05-07-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Reel Truth (edited 05-07-2000).]

Reel Truth,
With you on this subject all the way. I not only won't buy, but can't afford to buy, this grossly expensive equipment. While this high priced stuff may be wonderful to fish with ( I wouldn't know ), it will not make one a better fisherman. Do all my steelheading with a 100.00 dollar lamiglass and ambassadeur reels, and seem to do just fine.

Reel
I enjoy high quality blanks and feel their sensitivity is very important to someones fishing sucess. I also realize there are lots of factors that help someone catch fish... one being a rods sensitivity. My way of cutting costs on the fishing rods is to make them myself. I can get my parts for around 50-60 bucks and have a rod that is more sensitive than many rods in the prebuilt gloomis line. In fact I even started a business selling the rod kits since I felt there was a need for high quality low price products. I charge cost plus ten for the blank. For compents I package them at cost and add ten bucks. I do that just to cover my costs of running around and time spent ordering the stuff. At the prices I offer them at they beat most every company on the market by a wide margin. So far I have only sold them to my friends and family.
I guess people don't trust me online...yet. Or don't like prepaying. I could always change my name and raise the prices and they will sell like hot cakes..



------------------
Marty
www.steelheader.net
marty@steelheader.net

Smiles- I like very much the idea of custom built rods that perform with the best on market at much less cost. Keep it up. I wish there were more guys doing that.- However, while I agree that rod sensativety is a factor in steelie/king fishing, I know that the tiny bit of difference of sensativety between a $125 Lamiglass Graphite on sale and that of a $400+ G Loomis GL... is not going to make a difference in hookup rate. If a guy can't feel the bite with the former he is not likely to feel it with the latter! If you know what a soft bite/pickup feels like you can very EASILY detect it with rods like the Lami. Years of rod manufacturing company advertising and hype have fostered the belief among many fishermen that the extra big bucks will make your day, and it is not the truth. Consumer Reports mag. has exposed so many ad created myths about a variety of products that I would like to see them have a dozen good unbiased fishermen blindfold test the rods to prove my point.- Steve

[This message has been edited by Reel Truth (edited 05-07-2000).]

I'm going to wade in here in defense of spending as much as you can afford on a good rod and reel (not to mention line and hooks):

1. Unless you are an expert (some of the Board members can catch fish with a stick, string and a bent pin), the better equipment helps the same (average) angler catch more fish. The better the fisherman you are, the less a difference good equipment makes to that fisherman's success rate. (And if you're a beginner or just plain bad, high end equipment probably won't help as much as if you're at least average.)

Case in point: where I fish for steelhead in Alaska the best results come from throwing light drift gear that is splitshot weighted (vs. slinkies or pencil lead) and glided back downstream. Last year I used my trusty Cabela's $85 10-20lb spinning rod. Trouble was, I couldn't feel all the takes (I also broke the rod on a fish on the last day, too). Using advice from Hawk, I called a rod builder in Fridley, Minnesota and ordered a chuck n' duck rod (Sage fly blank w/ Fuji spinning guides). This year I was doing a whole lot better due to a change in technique and that sensitive blank. I raised the hook-up rate at least 50%. What's another 4 hook-ups a day worth to you . . . ? For me this rod has already paid for itself.

Does this mean everyone should run out and spend several hundred dollars on more sensitive rods? NO. It means that an average fisherman using better than average equipment is going to catch more than he would using below average equipment.

2. Fishing is already an expensive sport. Figure out some place else to save money but don't skimp on things that connect you to the fish. What most people don't figure in the cost equation is that their spare time -- the time we fish -- is worth a whole lot, too. Skimping on equipment costs diminishes the vale you get out of spending a day on the river (or with your kids at the ball diamond for that matter).

3. I gain more satisfaction from fishing with good tackle than so-so tackle. You can cast a little farther (not that this helps catch more fish), the retrieve is smoother, the rods are less fatiguing to use and the drags work better (a big plus). Another example. One morning last week in Alaska I was drift fishing with spinning gear for the only time on the trip. Hooked a 35" bright steelhead while anchored up and underestimated the fish's fight. I was waist deep in the river (having hopped out for a beaching) and working the fish to the boat when he went nuts and swam in a circle around the anchor rope. I ended up freeing the line by dunking the rod and reel combo (and my arm) into the water completely, doing the quick handoff and whipping the combination down the length of the boat. Finally leadered the sucker, but it took another 5 minutes and I was waiting the whole time for the drag to start going bad. The reel I was using was a Shimano Sustain, the $230 spinning reel Reel Truth wonders if anyone buys. The reel performed perfectly even after taking the prolonged dunking. If the reel had seized up and I'd have lost the fish, I'd have been very pissed off. I lose enough on my own. I don't need any help from equipment failure, too. I guess I don't catch more using good gear, but I probably lose fewer fish by not using cheap(er) gear.

When I took the Sustain apart later I found that ZERO water had gone inside the gear case AND the drag system was sealed as well, and required no maintenance. I was impressed. (The one shortcoming of the Sustain is that you end up with tremendous line twist after fighting a single good fish. The obvious solution -- cut off, strip line off and let it dangle in the current -- works well, but must be repeated each time.)

4. Finally, I'm all in favor of buying the best equipment at the best price. I'm not out to impress my friends (and believe me, few people in Singapore or even Australia give two hoots what you're fishing with). That doesn't necessarily mean always buying Loomis and Shimano (though I own several of both, but Singapore may be the cheapest place in the world to buy a Shimano reel, too -- about 60% of Cabela's or Bass Pro's prices).

One thing that really drives me crazy is the high price of fly reels. There's nothing IN them, so why so expensive? I am a very satisfied customer of the Tioga Reel (#10), which is the less expensive ($140) version of the award winning Teton fly reel ($220 or so). Excellent drag, though a little heavy.

I'm certain that there's $30 of advertising in the retail price of each Loomis. If anyone fishes GL3 quality rods made by other manufacturers then I'd be a willing convert. What I've done to date is have TH Custom Rods (active on this Board) build a couple of Loomis blanks up to factory specs for around $50 under retail. That helps some. Searching the Internet and buying mail order also cuts down on the costs.

Why bother with fussing about how much money other people spend on reels and poles? No one is being forced to buy the expensive gear and there is plenty of low budget gear out there. It's their money and who cares what they do with it? Looking back, I probably would have saved money if I would have bought the $200. reel and the$330.pole to begin with instead of starting cheap and working up through many upgrades. I am a good example of spending a buck to save a dime.

Snagly- This is a fun topic to debate because it's not a big deal; thus we can keep it in lighthearted perspective. So, nothing personal within the following.- Gotta take some exception to some of your points. First, my rod comparison to a GL3 was not so-so or below average, but rather the $150 range Lamiglass IM6/IMX's that are so commonly on sale for $125. And in that given comparison there is barely the tiniest of perceptable sensativity differences that will NOT help you catch more fish (I am an expert that has used both). So I stand by my claim that spending an extra $300 for a GL3 doesn't make sense to me. You mentioned that the more expensive rods won't help experts or begginers, but will help average fishermen catch more fish. That doesn't make much sense to me either and I disagree; again, in comparison to good graphite rods like the aforementioned Lami. (I never did make comparison to a $39 Shakespear Fiberglass rod, which would make some difference in catch rate). I think spending the $300 difference on upgrading the contents of the tackle & bait boxes is far greater bang for the buck (I have a very strong hunch that your 50% better success was due to the change in technique, not a more expensive rod)!- Same thing with the spinning reels. I just don't think you will get much more enjoyment from the $230 Shimano Sustain over an $80 Shimano Symetry (especially if you didn't have the prices in your mind while using them). I know you wouldn't catch anymore fish or get 3 times the longevity with the Sustain! Shimano makes it, and the absurd $599 Stella, for people that just want something a litte fantsier and are willing to pay big bucks for it. As for that $230 reel taking a dunking; I used the ABU "Cardinal 4" steelhead spinning reels throughout much of the 70's and thru many dunkings without a wimper, they just kept on working great for years. They cost $35 (equivelant to about $65 now?). And they never had a major flaw like your overpriced Sustain (bad line twisting)! Your comments about not understanding the very expensive prices of the "nothing inside them" flyreels exemplifies my whole point. The manufacturers prey upon the combo of fishermen's passion and self-image conscientousness to charge and get too much for their most expensive products. Again, if we all bought the quality $125 products, the overpriced items would come down dramatically- with no manufacturing cost cutting neccesary because the markup is already stratospheric.- My opinion. Most of those that have already bought the GL3 & Sustain caliber stuff will tend to talk themsevles into believing the ad hype; or they risk losing the image of what they think they've paid for. - Steve

I am going to pre-empt the likely comeback (in a crazy mood this week recovering & using Vicodans).-- Hey RT, you pompous, over-opinionated, condescending, rain-on-the-parade downer! If all that opinionated stuff is "the reel truth", why ruin people's fun by bringing it up? --- Well, I'm not sure. I guess I always have adverse feelings toward any kind of oppression by the wealthy- even when we have choices. Deep down I feel that 1 Mercedes, 1 Porche, 1 Range Rover, 1 $35k sled, 1 $750,000 mansion, & 1 vacation house are enough for anybody! They don't need to milk us for unfair amounts of our average incomes so they can have 2 Mercedes, 1 Ferrari, 1 Porche, RR/sled, $1,500,000 water front estate (removing the water from public access), & 3 vacation houses. I'm only a little left of center, despite those beliefs. And I don't mind sticking up for average income people despite the risk of the GL3 buyers disdaining the messenger instead of heeding the message. - Steve (on 2 Vicodans)

Steve,
Your comments about rich sportsmen buying the most expensive toys don't explain the popularity of high-end equipment. Sure, a lot of it is hype by the manufacturers (how else to you explain $600 fly rods, $150 tennis shoes, $40,000 jet sleds, $600 golf clubs, $3,000 shotguns, etc. etc.?), but there aren't enough rich guys around to keep all the equipment companies in business. I think there are plenty of people around that appreciate the engineering and esthetics of the expensive stuff, and are willing to pay the price that goes with owning the best, knowing that it won't make a noticeable difference in numbers of fish caught, golf scores, or whatever. These guys are willing to adjust their budgets in other places so they enjoy owning a fine piece of sporting gear. Life's a compromise, and some guys' priorities are to cast a GLoomis and swing a Biggest Big Bertha. Of course, they might then live in a shipping container and drive a Rambler, but that's just a reflection of their priorities. <g>
Personally, I love well made, high-tech equipment but I'm happy enough with my Lamiglas rod. Of course, Lami now has that Titanium stuff, and it is SO COOL I may be eating beans and rice for a while....

MikeT

Reel Truth:
Great topic! While drooling over those beautiful $$$$ rod & reel combos, I've personally dropped the tailgate, stepped on, thrown in the river, etc., enough of the $50-$100 combo's that I know better than to purchase one of them outfits that, if something bad happened to it, I'd kill myself!!

Mike- Good take on the subject. Ya, there is something that just feels good about owning the best toys. If someone wants to sacrifice in other areas to have an upper eachalon rod & reel combo there's nothing wrong with that. I just think the guys making them gouge our over-indulgence too much. That's my main gripe. It's funny that the last couple years I have gone thru half a dozen expensive titanium golf drivers trying to "buy" a better tee shot. Unlike the rods though, the clubs do make a big difference in the upper price range with better performance. I won't do the same for the rods & reels for the mentioned reasons. But I don't really mean to dis those that do.-- & No.- That's one of the beauties of the $125 rod compared to the $400+ rod; that you can use it w/o sweating out the first scratch and then the possible breaks, and just concentrate on the fishing. But to each his own. Right?

Just three points. I stand by the statement that really good equipment isn't going to help beginners or klutzes as much as average fishermen. Beginners don't know what they're doing: it's a technique flaw that even the best equipment can't fix. Experts have such good technique that they can overcome average equipment. For everyone else, every little bit helps. (Whether or not it's value-for-money is personal call.)

The most important contributor to my catching more fish wasn't a better rod but the improved technique that came from actually SEEING a lot of the fish. I finally upgraded my shades to Smith Action Optics and this was an even better investment than the new rod. Until you see the line enter the water and then see the drift bobber trailing (a lot farther back than you might expect) then you'll never be visualizing properly. Even when I wasn't actually sight fishing, I was casting in slightly different positions to get the best drift in the area where I thought the fish would hold. I felt like I had X-ray vision out there, and highly recommend good shades.

Finally, I paid $220-$250 from TH for my GL3's. I may have got the sums wrong, but if you're paying $150 for a good Lami that's not a $300 difference.

* * * * *

You're right about this not being a BFD. People should do what pleases them. I think paying $500 for a spinning reel is insane, but $135 (what I paid for the Sustain and the Chronarchs) strikes me as value-for-money. As for that Cardinal 4 spinning reel, along with the Mitchell 301 (I'm a lefty) it has to be the all-time great entry level reel.

I find it hard to justify costs like described above,I own 2 lamniglas yet my drift rod is a Berkley series 1 and I love it for 99 bucks it's a deal I fish a Calcuta also ,but for my buck I pick reel over rod ,in my early years I caught a ton of fish on an old fenwick with a dam quick 220 spinning reel,then switched to an Ambassaduer baitcaster and so on,but I do need a new pair of fishing glasses though any suggestion here guys ...I'm not gonna spend a 100 bucks...Thanks my .02

------------------
Tight Lines
FISH ON ------<*)>><
Men are like fish we get into trouble when we open our mouths to much!!

Hey Snagly, I hope we didn't horse you up by sore mouthin those fish with C & D. We lit them up on Sunday. I'll e-mail you with numbers, but it was retarded.

All I can say is that the nicer rods give you a little better feel, but there is no substitute for "time and experience". Don't think many of us could tell the difference between a $200 rod and a $600 rod. If they are that much better, I don't want them, because my hands are still recovering form those babies. You just can't drift enough. You'll get better at sortin out the botoom, current, and settin up your drifts by spending time on the river. We all look for the magic pill, but the bottom line is we learn most of our stuff from really great or really bad experiences. Seeing fish helps, because it allows you to visually figure out how to set up your drift and have confidence you are drifting to the fish. Personally, I would rather not see them, because it's way too easy to "accidentally" leader drag them in the mouth. Most of the time, I'll turn my head and go "Stevie Wonder" style, so I can only feel them.

I have a 25 year old Fenwick fiberglass fly rod that is converted for North Shore chuckin, that I'll pull out this fall for a trip down memory lane. Odds are, I'll be able to hose as many fish with this old warhorse. Like I said earlier, I've learned a lot about drift fishing in the last 25 years, and that old Mamma will still spank em.

Hey Reel Truth, I'm out of my "Me catch lots of Fish coma" severe sinus infection, and sleep deprivation. I'm almost mainstreamed in to civilization again. Glad to hear your surgery went well. Will e-mail you this week, and shoot the breeze.

Lot of truth to what you say Reel. I'll add that those ugly upper prices are even more rediculous when you consider the declining salmon and steelhead runs and the Feds and states taking away more of our fishing opportunity all of the time. Snag, those prices you quote must be over in Sing., NOT here. And your Sustain dropped from a described $230 to $135 ? In the not too distant future some guys may have some real nice $450 wallhangings if they aren't allowed to use their GL 3's anymore. ..shtick

Hawk, you definitely had a better Sunday than we did as we spent most of the day giving Bob fishing lessons and retrieving Mike, who fell out twice in his urge to bite boatside fish. (Board: 'Mike' is a dog, and not one of my extra peculiar fishing friends.) My highlight of that day was Slick going to slip the anchor and handing me his rod after his fly had swung out. I had my rod in the left hand and his in the right when BANG! I got a 'take down' on the right. Slick goes 'Gimme back my rod!' I said '#&^% you, Jack! I hooked it and I'll play it.' About a 32" chrome hen. Helluva fight. Slick was ranting and Fraker was laughing his nodules off.

I quoted $230 for the Sustain because that's what Cabela's quotes (p. 17 Spring 2000 Master Catalog). When I got some heat from RT re amounts of money spent on fishing, then I reverted to what I pay which varies according to the S$ and Yen exchange rates and the Japanese economy. But in general $135 is about right (I actually paid $125 but that was last year). This is a gray market 'dumping rate' that in the US would result in a lawsuit. In Asia it's one of the very few perks you get for living in a freshwater fishing desert. (By the way, the bargains are limited to Shimano and Daiwa reels and supply can be spotty.)

PS Hawk, you are excluded from the discussion of whether equipment can make you a better fisherman. I saw Chuck and you flicking with machine gun precision and realized that you guys had reduced your 'dead water drifting' to virtually nil as you whipped the fly back into the slot till you hooked up. I doubt one Board member in 20 can do that. (And as I recall you didn't have a K-Mark rod in your hand, either.)

With all these Companies selling top price rods and reels hooks etc... Are they donating to the cause by helping with steelhead and salmon recovery in our state? With prices going higher all the time, you would like to think they are making contributions to programs like Reiter Ponds and other fisheries needing support.

Griz- Actually there is some help from the tackle industry. Although it is self serving in that their goals & efforts have been to lobby the Fed./State Agencies to keep fishing seasons open as much as possible; so as to protect their tackle sales potential. And we should appreciate that. They are the National Sportfishing Industry Association (NSIA). I have not heard anything about their finances being put directly into fishery enhancing projects- but they may. One of the most active participants is Buzz Ramsey of Lure Jensen out of Hood River, OR.- I've got an idea; how about attaching a luxury tax on any rod or reel over $200 and on any lure priced over $5 that will go directly into fish habitat restoration & other fishery enhancing projects. Costs not to be passed on to the consumer (ya right). Now that would go over real well with the right wing. Not! - Steve

Maybe this will make sense to those who want to skimp on $$ for their rod & reel combos. If we are fisherman of equal skill and experience AND I am using a Shimano "Calias and an IMX 1084c and you are using a berkeley IM6 and a Zebco reel, I WILL OUTFISH YOU!! With no doubt!

I know I am not skimping on quality, in fact I have improved mine. How many of you use a one piece pole for steelhead? Many folks don't realize that a ferrule dampens the rod sensitivity. Is a little convience that important

------------------
Marty
www.steelheader.net
marty@steelheader.net