Ok I presently really dislike Slade, but when I drove though forks the other day I saw signs supporting him in the local tackle store and some businesses. Being of the open mind sort that I am...Tell me why I should vote for him over the opposition.

Tight Lines



------------------
Marty
Steelheader.net marty@steelheader.net

marty,
I am finally to the legal voting age and I am very excited to put my vote in against him. Well, I thought I would tell you my opinion.

Chris

Marty,

If you read the comments section of the WDFW Proposed Rule Changes, you'll see that the Forks locals love to rank on Bob (or Robert Ball, as they refer to him) for his support of C&R regs on the Forks area rivers. So it's no surprise to me that they'd love a guy like Slade Gorton. You hate for your state to lose seniority (power, in other words) in the US congress, but Slade is one guy I'd love to see take a vacation from office.

The question is, are his opponents also net-lovers, but from the liberal side of politics? In that case, I'll have to consider my vote VERY carefully. Oh, hell, who am I kidding, I'd vote for a chimpanzee before I could bring myself to vote for Slade "I never met a dam I didn't like" Gorton. Just my $.02


Fish on........

The dams have to go and so does Slade!!!!

------------------
Tight Lines!!

Dan S. There it goes again the stated sentiment that nets are the big problem! Get it straight will you its pollution, dams, and riparian zone degradation, not nessecarily in that order that have brought the fisheries resources of this state to the sorry situation that exisist.
Slade Gortons opposition to meaningful changes in forest practices and agricultural and grazing rights curtailment are easy to read about. He is always voting with the western block of big development oriented legislators for additional funding of water projects that continue the decline in fish populations.
His stead fast support of riders on appropriations bills is killing the taxpayers as a whole, I could go on for days about ths jerk. Lets end it with the thought do you really want to have as your senior Senator the former Attorney General of Washington State that lost the Boldt Decesion.
Now this ia a RANT!

You are right about the other three, but I would still put NETS at the top of the list. Anyway, Slade must go he is a crook.

The Sierra club is on a mission to educate the public about slade. I have heard of his "ack room deals" and hope to vote him out of office. Anyone know who we could vote for?
In response to the net comment: It is very easy to lay blame on nets. Blame is why nothing gets done. Everyone wants to say that "I have no affect on fish" but when it comes down to it we all do. Yes even us fisherfolk!
Also when you make a statement like "nets are the only problem" You immediately put some people on the offensive. Those people will then quit listening to what you say.

VOTE THIS BUM OUT! Cant say it any clearer. Example: I asked him about the dams on the Elwha (spelling?), and he said "I dont see any real need to remove them", (I.E. benifit). If you pay attention to what goes on in the newspaper from time to time, you will see a trend with this guy. Supports mining companys with no environmental monitoring, see's no bendfit to dam removal, wants increased logging with no restrictions, not around, not seen on high seas drift nets, just today in the paper he opposes money for parks, and on and on and on. Get rid of him now!

Native Boy,
This is just a friendly question: do you think that nets don't do anything to the fish population. The only thing that effecteds the fish are ripariam zone degradation, dams and pollution, in your opionin.

Addict: To answer your question on alternatives to Slade, there are two Dems in the running -- Maria Cantwell (former Congressperson) and Deborah Senn (current state insurance commissioner). The primary will decide which one goes against Gorton, but either would be an improvement!

Native Son,

The dams in question are of questionable economic value. The case made to keep them intact is not strong enough to outweigh the damage they do to the fish, in my opinion. And the Elwha dam issue is laughable. Yeah, let's throw up a dam to power a pulp mill and wipe out a run of some of the largest Chinook in N. America. And once the fish are on the brink of extinction, let's refuse to admit our mistake, for fear that someone might accuse us of being an "environmentalist" GASP!!! Sorry if you don't see it that way, but I do. Tell you what, why don't you just head to the polls and cancel out my vote for whomever or whatever is running against Slade? That's how it's done, so we'll see in November.

And as for the nets, here's my opinion for you. The Native comercial harvest is provided in the treaties and isn't even a factor here. Every returning fish has already survived the dams, habitat degradation, ocean conditions, bids, etc. Now it's a question of how much of the pie goes to sports anglers and non-Tribal commercial netters. In the past and in this case the netters pay least and take most. I want sport fishing to get more at the expense of NON-TRIBAL COMMERCIAL NETS. Is that clear enough? Nets, dams, anglers, habitat all have something to do with it. I'm addressing just two of the issues here. They just happen to be the two issues that are easiest to address. Unless, Native Son, you have a proposal to regulate: urban growth and devlopment, water usage, high seas dumping of chemical waste, bird predation, transportation, nuclear waste storage, logging, road building, farming, and everything else facing these fish runs.

Fish on........

[This message has been edited by Dan S. (edited 07-19-2000).]

Chris, I personaly find the use of gillnets and for the most part siene nets to be under regulated in the State of Washington. The use of a gear type in the prosecution of a fishery is only good if it is done with effective monitoring and enforcement by competent managers and adequate enforcement personel. I am getting a pretty clear picture that we might be lacking here in Washington in this regard. As to which is worse on fish, nets, or all the other problems facing salmon in the northwest one only has to look up north to Alaska where annuual harvest by the various users is measured in millions of fish and then walk the streams after all those netfishers trollers and sport fishers have been fishing and look at the millions of salmon that are choking the unlogged undamned unpolluted streams.
To many times people in general tend to look at the other guy, the other tribe if you will to give up the little of what is left so he she they or I can have the little thats left. This whole thing about attacking everybody else to get the last fish will get us just that "The Last Fish"

Steelhead Addict, maybe you would like to explain to us why the Sierra Club didn't support the "Ban All Nets" initiative.

Native,

You can not directly compare the returns to alaska with those of WA. I agree that Dams, logging, riperian disturction (grazing), siltation, and netting are some of the couses of the reduced escapement number. Elimination of netting is simple going to be the quickest way to begin enhancement of returns. For cutlural reasons dip nets should work in most regions with a little open communication.

thick

Salmontackler, I'll answer that on the skinny that I have. The Enviromental movement although late to the party when it comes to fisheries has recently been effective in working with fisheries organizations in Alaska. Tongass and Chugach National forest reform,riverine protection, oil tanker safety, offshore drilling regulations, and even the Marine Mamal Protection Act, are all partly the result of various groups working together.
After having worked with groups who represent commercial fishing intrest it is not really Kosher to jump on the band wagon of an initative (with no chance of succes), that is stated to kill the jobs of the same people you just won with on all the other issues.
Also in the recent past, early 90's ,the organization S.E.A.C.O.P.S. was started funded and staffed almost entirely by commercial fishers. The sole purpose of the organization was to provide information on the high seas interception of North American Salmon by Asian Driftnetters on the high seas. In that goal the organization was quite successful and alliances were informaly created once again between fishing organizations across the spectrum with many of the enviromental organizations.
Shortly after the United States, Soviet Union, and Japan, got the United Natons ban on highseas driftnetting passed as a law of the sea sport fishing groups siezed upon the concept of painting small scale domestic gillnetters with the same brush. This relly pissed off the gillnetters and sieners and they demanded that the enviros back off on any support for a ban on small scale domestic commercial fishing.
Then there is also the view held by many that the whole net ban disscusion is a "Red Herring" and well meaning folks are being duped into supporting it in lieu of getting focused on the real problem dams, logging, mineing,(sic) and agriculture.
Once again I really hope to make this issue clear and my only purpose in these post is to try and get information out there. I read this board for along time before I started posting and I must say the majority of the members appear to have the fishes intrest at heart but if you don't have all the information it makes it difficult to tell fact from fiction.

Just to add on to Native's post:
I voted for the initiative, but I regret it now ( even though it didn't pass)> The idea was to get rid of nets, but the initiative on the ballot was to stop all commercial fishing, both net and trawl. This in my opinion is why the initiative didn't pass

What the heck? Maria Cant-do anything-well or Deborah Senn? I don't want to get off on a rant here but if you folks think that a couple of nanny state socialists will in any way improve life or fishing in this state you're all licking frogs. Who has appointed the last few WDFW chiefs? Liberal democrats. Who has run this state into the ground financially, morally, educationally? Liberal democrats! Deborah Senn is personally responsible for the cost of health insurance in this state doubling over the last 6 years (ask your boss!) and the number of insurers going from over thirty to TWO. Yeh, that is freedom of choice. Liberal democrats have cost this state over thirty million dollars is DSHS settlements this year alone!!!!!! How much fishing opportunity could that buy??????? Slade is no saint I admit, but he is a far cry better than someone who thinks they know better what kind of car you should drive (a public bus), how you should raise you kids(on ridlan in a failing public school unable to read)If you think you can raise your kids, just swat one on the behind at a mall and see how long it takes CPS to visit your home, how much of your money you should be able to keep(inflation 2.5% property tax increase 20% in 2000, 13% in 1999)What you can eat(recently introduced "fat tax" to discourage meat eating), how much fuel you can buy($0.43 PER GALLON gas tax), how free you can be(2 sheriffs for 720 square miles in graham with 40 mph roads, that means a one hour response time and Maria and Deborah don't think we can be trusted with weapons to defend our families, in an area with the highest concentration of meth labs in the state!!!!!!) What you can own(if you think you own your home, truck, boat just stop paying your lease payments to the gov't(TAXES,FEES,TABS) Hell, us peasants can't even fish for pleasure without PAYING FOR THE PRIVELEGE(paying for certain, unalienable rights) If you guys want to be single issue voters, go right ahead. If you really want to make this a better country for EVERYONE (not just me,me,me) vote for MORE freedom, LOWER taxes, LESS gov't intrusion in our lives. If you don't like Slade, vote for a conservative libertarian. Remember, those dams were there for a long time BEFORE the fish runs went to hell. Idaho steelhead travel over 8 dams and they still have good runs most years. (yes I know they also have the largest hatchery)

When looking back at Slade Gorton's track record, I do not know how anybody who is somewhat concerned not only about having fish to fish for but also about the air that their children breathe and the water their children drink can vote for Gorton.
I would rather have a femi-nazi women telling what to do then have no fish to fish for, not have clean water to drink, not have clean air to breathe, not have parks to walk in, not have forests to hike through etc. etc. etc. ...you get my point.
wit45cal: Swallow your redneck pride and put the fish first, I do not honestly believe the democrat forerunners are bust into your house and take away your kids for spanking them nor are they going to take away your cars and make you ride the bus especially considering that Wa. State DSHS cant manage to protect parents from killing their kids let alone spanking them.

--Ryan

Slade must go anybody who supports fishing with nets and keeping useless dams that block hundreds of miles of spawning ground does not care about the fish. enough said
RAMPRAT

Thanks for the responses. I must admit I did like one of slades proposed intiatives. He wanted to make it legal to sue the tribes. Presently we have no legal recourse if we disagree with the tribes. But of course he switched his position on that one too after some back door deal. The native americans are putting a all out assault against him this coming election. Ever wonder why? Guess he should have followed though with his initiatives instead of switching at the last minute. Thanks again for your insights.

------------------
Marty
Steelheader.net marty@steelheader.net

Please don't try to tell me about clean water and air. As one of the people in the forefront of environmental protection I do know a little about it. I spent 4 years owning a business that was required to clean up the lead and chrome ridden water of the City of Tacoma. It is private businesses that are making improvements to the water and air.(with help and constant urging from the DOE) All of the significant advances in environmental protection have come from private business. You conviently forget that the biggest reason we have the lowest power rates in the US is exactly because of the columbia dams. You also forget to disagree or disprove any of my points but rather resort to name calling. If you think the nanny state is a good thing, name one time in history that it has worked.

Native son, I really appreciate all your knowledgeable, and intelligent input on this website, help me out here, the Hoh is pretty much unpolluted,undammed, undeveloped, and the headwaters exist in a never logged national forest. Why then is the king run going downhill so fast, if it's not the nets in the river, what is it.???

wit45,

Have you checked the power production numbers from the Snake river dams in question? You might be surprised at how little they contribute to the area's economy, power-wise. Private enterprise is leading the cleanup of the messes that other private enterprises have produced. Just curious....who left behind the lead and chromium you were cleaning up? I agree that our gov't reps. have done a sorry job as stewards of our lands, but you're not really claiming that private enterprise is guilt-free regarding the degradation of our natural resources, are you? In any case, I'll be at the polls in Nov. voting against Slade, so if you want to cancel out my vote, be my guest. I think his track record sucks, and I'm going to let my vote speak for me. As a voter, that's all I can do.


Fish on.........

I did not mean to resort to name calling but the one thing that drives me crazy about Gorton supporters is that his efforts to undermine enviromental law are so blatant. Browse through the headlines or the local news section of the Seattle Times over the past year and its very obvious, look back over Gorton's long tenure and its sad to see where we could be right now.
If you think I am some kind of liberal tree hugger and that is why I am denouncing Gorton and supporting him being voted out of the senate that is not the case. Anybody that really knows me or has had any sort of political discussion with me knows that I am about as conservative as they come; many a occasions I have been called a conservative *******.
I still can not understand why anyone who enjoys the outdoors in this state would vote for him...it just makes no sense to me.
--
Ryan

ps wit45cal: are you one of those "sportsman" that bonks a wild steelie on the head and then blames their demise totally and completely on the indians?
just wondering

Dan O, I will try to answer it is pretty complex though. Starting in about 1982 there has been a repetitive and extremely damaging series of heavy rainfall and early snow melts resulting in catastrophic Riparian zone shifts and gravel recruitment. This has been accelerating and if you fish the Hoh much you have seen the evidence of these floods. The worst damage is in the areas that have been logged but by no means is the areas in the park immune to these events.
River course changes of the magnitude that are occuring on the Hoh are devastating to all spieces. In a lot of cases the water just simply moves away from where fish have spawned before the eggs get out of the gravel. In other instances the rearing areas for the fry and parr are filled in with the excessive sand and gravel thereby limiting the carrying capacity of the stream.
In a lot of the Hoh there is a lack of the larger woody debris that forms log jams which create stability to the banks and the course of the river. Too the log jams are important to the fry and parr in diferent stages of there various life historys.
I'm sure that you know all these things but its a pretty short list compared to all that is wrong with the Hoh.
I'm quite certain that the Hoh needs to be managed very carefuly by all the managers involved Native Tribe, National Park, Timber companys, the State, and us as individuals.
Hope that helps Dan O, I am headed out the door to do a bit of angling.

Sorry but I haven't killed a fish in almost two years, of any kind. I have been having terrible luck(?!?!?) hunting steelies as of late but I really don't expect to bonk even a hatchery fish. Part of the reason we have fewer fish is the indian nets and the lack of policing same. The dams also contribute, as do sporties, commercials,(as an aside, I notice that guides are not classified as commercials. With very few exceptions,most notably Bob, they get paid to produce dead fish for customers) industry and all the rest. I am opposed to the redistribution of wealth, mine and yours, and the encroachment on freedom that the dems will bring.(patty murray ring a bell) Slade is no saint, and I have disagreed with him many times. My point is that we should elect someone who will enhance our freedom not attack it. The word fish is nowhere in the constitution and these jokers are there to uphold the constitution, the whole thing. Everyone complains about SPECIAL INTEREST making the rules until it is their own special interest. Like it or not we are a special interest. As for the water I was cleaning up, it was the drinking water that the CITY had already treated. The Lead and Chrome levels coming into my plant were above the permissable discharge levels allowed by law. This meant that I had to pay to clean the water before I could discharge it to the sewer. This is the reason that I will not drink city water anywhere (watch for the bleach smell) Slade is certainly not the best choice we could find, I simply believe he will be the best choice available in Nov.

I seem to be older then most of the post on this topic. I can remember back when good old slade gordon use to do commentary on KIRO. Before he got elected to the state office's he has held.
I did not like his commentary then i i do not like his attitude now. He has not changed his demeanor or attitude. He always acts like is so much better than everyone else, and his [Bleeeeep!] does not stink.

Well folk's, believe it or not i'll bet my pay check that i would not follow him into a bathroom stall when he is done.

He has been a bad seed, but now he is the senior bad seed for Washington State. And yes, it is important to have senior members in congress. But why could he be more like old Magneson or a couple of others we have had over the years. Yes some of them have been demcrats, but we had a few good republics also. People whom actually looked out for Washington's people not just their own or their special interest groups. Yes old salde has his share of special interest groups and they pay alot of money to keep him in office. No secret, it has been listed by some individuals of all the national congress-people. Whom, when and where the monies, trips and so on comes from.

It might hurt haveing rookie congree people in office, but hopefully they will listen for a couple of years before they get all caught up in the pork barrel politics and do something right.

elmtree (woody)

[This message has been edited by elmtree (edited 07-20-2000).]

Before you vote against Slade, consider the options, and the big picture.
1. Slade does not support PETA or the other animal rights people. Note: PETA wants to ban all fishing, especially C&R,since they consider it torture. (Slade's opponent is a Liberal Democrat, financially supported by the animal rights groups).

2. The Dams in Eastern WA, support the mainstay of the Eastern WA economy, agriculture. The Dams also are also the financial support for the majority of the fish hatcheries on the Columbia. Remove one, you remove many of the other.

3. Slade and the Republicans support local, and state solutions to the fish problems. The opposition (Democrats)prefers Federal solutions. If you doubt that, just look at what they just did to Hanford Reach. Hopefully they won't screw that up, or eliminate access.

Slade certainly isn't perfect, but I think he is a heck of a lot better that the alternative. I can't bear the thought of a Patty Murray twin!

Just remember Slade = no fish. If you are O.K. with that than vote for him. I really think that some of you need to look up the word Liberal in the dictionary!!! Maybe it isn't a dirty word.

First off I want the readers to know the I support what Huntar and 45cal. said about the alternatives... YOU guys are flippin nuts if you think for one minute that one of those liberal demos. are going to make your fishing any better. DanS you can already consider your vote as cancelled, because however bad slade may be the alternative is slow death....I wish you readers could look past acouple of issues an see the big picture.. REMOVING THE DAMS WILL NOT BRING BACK THE FISH AS FAST AS THE REMOVEL OF ALL NETS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Try one first then go for the other.. Lastly, Slade is one of the few politicians that has ever stood his ground(momentarily) against the indian issues.. Do you think for a minute that one of those liberal demos will try that. Think not!!!

Pro-Gortonians :
How would reelecting Gorton better the state our our native salmonids in this state than electing a Democrat???

--
Ryan

edit, message deleted.

[This message has been edited by salmontackler (edited 07-22-2000).]

Lets stick to the subject at hand. The "Dam Question" I asked Slate about, were the Elwha dams. His response was "I don't see any real good in removing them" . And lets not get tied up in liberal vs. conservative. Vote for the person who will do the best job. And if you have kept up on events, you would see that Slate Gorton has done a lousy job. At least from a fishermans point of view. If you care about what goes on with this states fisheries, than vote this guy out!

Now that this has deteriorated into a political debate, I'll bow out now. Let's just say that "conservative" means opposed to change. Like things the way they are? Then vote GOP. After all, they're so worried about our personal freedoms that they want to be in our homes and bedrooms and doctors' offices to show us how to lead our "free" lives.

Fish on......

Salmontackler, you said that Slade is as close as we can come to removing the dams. Are you serious??? Slade never saw a dam he didn't like. Ever!!! At least demos, those crazy environmentalists, know that dams are bad for the environment.

I don't think I am going to change any minds here, especially since no one has even bothered to prove any of my points wrong. Quite typical of democrats. I certainly don't intend to make any enemies here which is often done when discussing politics. Suffice it to say that the last time we even had close to conservative (not necessarily GOP) control in WA was when Dixie was the Gov. What has been tried in this state for the last 25 years certainly has not worked and I for one am tired of hearing that the only reason it hasn't is that I'm not contributing enough of my money. Slade is NOT a good choice for senator, he is just a lot better than the alternatives. Please do not get bogged down with being a single issue voter, it shows a pathetic lack of citizenship. It is the me, me, me attitude that got us into this mess. I suggest you ask your boss to let you sit in on a few interviews(it quickly proves the sorry state of education here), review the tax liability of the firm, add up all of the taxes that you can see that you pay(don't forget about the 7.5% SSI your boss pays for you)See what it takes to get a building permit, etc., etc. You will quickly see that we are losing freedoms daily and it's costing us more and more to do it. (boston tea party happened over a 2.5% tax) I will repeat, The nanny state has failed EVERY time it has been tried, for the last five thousand years. Hard work, perserverence, patriotism and individual freedom have WORKED every single time it has been tried for the last five thousand years. Vote for freedom and the rest will fall into place, and do not under any circumstances be willing to trade freedom for security or comfort (or fish). The small pricetag today will expand exponentially and the program will still fail. (social security ring a bell?) Question, does anyone on this board under age 45 think that SSI will provide enough for them to live on at retirement? Does anyone under 35 think they will get back anything at all? Just one example of a great sounding idea, very well intentioned, run by literally thousands of true believers over the years and it is still failing. I will now go back to discourse on fishing and leave you all to make your own decisions politically. Anyone need a boat on the Cowlitz Sat. 7-21??? am planning to launch around 0500. Dems are welcome!!!

Voters and fishermen:

I am just left of center politically and vote as an independant. As a fisherman and outdoorsman I wouldn't even consider voting for Slade Gorton. As a citizen concerned for fairness and well being for the majority of people I also wouldn't vote for Gorton. Almost nuff said. Except I can't help but to reply to the far right edge blinded thinking of the "Gun Man" (wit45cal). You have completely over exagerated the negative controlling affects on society as a whole by the liberal demos! I don't like things that don't belong forced down my throat or up my a** either. The key words are "that don't belong there". Most of what they propose for policy and laws do belong there so the animalistic side of human nature doesn't ferociously feed upon itself to eventual destruction. The members of society that don't want them there are those that want freedoms to hurt people in various ways for self gain or want built-in unfair advantages to oppress the middle and lower classes. This is simply a FACT! You must be an ignorant redneck that doesn't even know why you are a self-described peasant. It's because of the the fraudulant oppressive conservative wealthy class that you so blindly vote for. Those are the ones that aren't satisfied with just 3 huge houses, 5 expensive cars, boats, and planes, etc., etc., etc. They want the middle and lower classes to provide them with labor and money and then turnaround and pay the taxes too, due to their extreme greed and the grandeur illusion that they are above the masses in intrinsic value and privilage. One of the great sicknesses of the human race. Just as rediculous and ugly is that their big money can buy "sellout" conservative republicans election victories and thus gain essentially paid for political advantage favors. Why? Because the masses still allow these big money "pull the wool over the dummies eyes" lying compaigns to keep working. Why? Because they are dumb. You too "Wit". There are many ways they pull this off. Let me enlighten you with their easiest and most effective. During their bigger money compaigns they promise you a tax cut (read their lips). Even if they do come thru with this tiny carrot for the needy, the biggest tax cut in dollars per capita are overwhelmingly for the wealthy. And then the carrot goes right back to wealthy anyway in the form of windfall profits enabled by their system. But because God didn't gift the "peasants" with as much intelligence, or even greed, does not mean that they deserve to be so utterly oppressed by wealthy power! And the smarter greedy people aren't as smart as they think because all of their ugliness will eventually lead to enough destruction that it will prevent them from enjoying the spoils of their power. Now this is from a guy who honestly isn't even a far left wing person. I just tell it like it really is!

[This message has been edited by Fishtick (edited 07-23-2000).]

Fishtick, Wow except for the reference to individuals described as being "dumb" ( I would substitute ignorant) I couldn't agree with you more.
I am writing this response as one who has a closet full of guns and the same lackluster educatinoal background decryed in a previous post! I have spent a lifetime in the school of hard knocks and I am fully aware of the problems of excessive liberal programs but they pale in comparison to the excesses of global enviromental destruction caused by big moneyed intrest.
True campaign finance reform is the only single issue that rings my bell until that transpires all the rhetoric about freedom will ring pretty hollow in my ears.

wit45, Fishtick, Native Son and others,

What we have here is a simple political diagreement. Now if we all go to the polls, or mail in our ballots, we'll be doing all we can do to make our point. It's the non-voting complainers that crack me up. They take no part in the process but continue to lament how the process works.

Just vote in November and let the chips fall where they may. wit45, that was very open-minded of you to invite even a Dem. to fish with you.......you weren't just going to dump them overboard downstream were you? Ha Ha. Talk to you guys later.........


Fish on...........

Dan S, if you think this country is changing for the better, I think I can see why you are a liberal.
Fishtick, I have one word for you "luxury tax". Just my "blind voting, ignorant redneck" opinion. If you don't like being controlled you should re-think liberalism, and I thimk you are a little further to the left than you think. I don't think Gordon is the best choice, but I would rather not have liberal representation. Guess I am between a rock and a hard head.

I did go fishing Sat. and hooked 4 nice steelhead. I also managed to lose all four. Two of the losses I will promptly blame on those of you who did not take me up on the offer. (they were lost while one handing the net)

Fishtick, stop with the name calling, it clouds (at the very least) your argument. Since 5% of earners pay over 90% of taxes and 50% of earners pay NO income tax at all, tax cuts by definition must benefit the wealthier people.(especially when WEALTHY has been defined down to--anyone with a job) Class envy will only work for so long then the truth will out. The problem with dems (apart from being wrong) is that they cannot bring themselves to argue the facts, which I guess forces me to discuss?? things their way.

The last time that the WEALTHY were attacked happened this way. Their money was seized, their businesses stolen, their homes, possesions, everything gone forever. They weren't even really wealthy, but the president and other politicians convinced the citizens that they were, primarily through class envy. They were then made to work to pay back society for their sin of being wealthy and different, thinking they were better than the rest of the people. Some people even said that they thought they were genetically superior to the serfs.

Eventually, SIX MILLION WERE EXTERMINATED.

I think you're probably a good person and I would gladly have you as a neighbor, friend or fishing buddy. Two things just need to be addressed, one, I am not far right, just right. Two, you my friend are not right at all. Lets get back to fishing!!!!!!

Back to the original question on this post, slade's family is very much financialy involved in the commercial fishing industry. Anyone ever heard of Gorton Seafoods?? How can we expect anyone, much less a politician with slade's track record, to vote for what is beneficial to salmon, when he and his right-wing cohorts can continue to stuff their pockets with dirty salmon dollars?? VOTE HIM OUT ASAP!!!

Please pardon my poor choice of references Native Son. Instead of refering to the under-privilaged oppressed of the middle and lower classes as "dumb", I should have refered to those in that situation that continue to buy the con. RW fraud, and vote in their republican cohorts, as being "grossly misinformed". They just lack the means to understand how it really works against them. It's a little more of a challenge to come up with an appropriate reference to "ignorant redneck gun man". How about "wooly brows"? No, that's name calling. Maybe "actually thinks he's right ~ roflmao". It's voters like him that have unfortunately helped divide this country into 4 classes ~ Small minority of powerful oppressors that have everything and want more. The struggling middle class. The low wage slaves that have little or no opportunity to get by any other way than this sub-poverty level of life. And finally the homeless people that were pushed out of jobs they worked hard at for years, and did well at, by the powerful upper echelon bottom line money guys in control. That's class envy?? Hey, I guess I am a little further left than I thought. But not far left, just the proper side of right on . BTW 45 Caliber, this thread has turned appropriately political, and an occasional one that has connections to fishing in addition to everyday life has got to be OK. The far greater number of posts within this thread seems to confirm that. If you find it bothersome then you can get back to fishing by clicking on just those topics. I also will mention reading psychology literature of studies that have proven that the larger the caliber of a man's gun the smaller his penis is extremely likely to be. Bone up on your politics 45 cal.

[This message has been edited by Fishtick (edited 07-24-2000).]

Fishstick, guess we should bring down that small minority of powerful oppressors that already pay 90% of the taxes. Then when they are forced to pay even more taxes they won't be wanting any of those 5 extra houses,8 cars, 3 boats, and 10 G loomis rods. With no one to work for, I wonder how many of the next 2 classes will be joining the last one?
That should make you happy though, more gov. dependants.

[This message has been edited by corky (edited 07-23-2000).]

Fishtick,I think it is you instead of "gunman" that needs to read alittle history.. Ya you are right about the rich getting richer and the poorer staying where they are at. But, you show me anywhere in history where society functioned with everybody as an equal?!?! It will not and cannot happen.. There is always going to be someone who is smarter, more driven, luckier, etc....and these are the ones that will prevail and create jobs for the rest..Should we punish these people for having created jobs and opportunities for the rest?? I think not!!!!!!!!!! You demos, that blame your lack of success on the rich Reps. are the ones that are stupid..Everyone of us has the same oppurtunities to succeed and that is the great advantage of living here.. Fishtick, you might want to quite blaming the govt. for your short comings because it would appear to me that someone with your attitude has some real SHORT COMINGS.. Lets give up on the impossible(agreeing on a political issue) and go fishing..

Fishtick,I think it is you instead of "gunman" that needs to read alittle history.. Ya you are right about the rich getting richer and the poorer staying where they are at. But, you show me anywhere in history where society functioned with everybody as an equal?!?! It will not and cannot happen.. There is always going to be someone who is smarter, more driven, luckier, etc....and these are the ones that will prevail and create jobs for the rest..Should we punish these people for having created jobs and opportunities for the rest?? I think not!!!!!!!!!! You demos, that blame your lack of success on the rich Reps. are the ones that are stupid..Everyone of us has the same oppurtunities to succeed and that is the great advantage of living here.. Fishtick, you might want to quite blaming the govt. for your short comings because it would appear to me that someone with your attitude has some real SHORT COMINGS.. Lets give up on the impossible(agreeing on a political issue) and go fishing..

Steelyhorn: You had the "same opportunities to succeed" as Slade? And Bubba-Dubya Bush?? You were born with a silver spoon in your mouth and a family ties pass into the National Guard (versus Vietnam)?? I doubt it!
"Slade works for you??" Sure, if you're a billionare with lots of campaign money.
I fish & I vote (anyone but Gorton!)

Scaly,Did you vote for Wild Bill???? He's certainly not up for any war medals.. Your right about the silver spoon, I was fed with your standard silverware..

I didn't read all of this thread because frankly you only have to skim to get the gist.
Slade Gorton is not his own man. You want to know exactly how Slade will vote on each and every issue you just need to follow the money. This man is a puppet of big business and big dollars nothing else. I do not believe, after all these years, that he actually has a thought of his own any more. It should not matter whether you are a Dem or Rep since this guy doesn't represent you either way unless you are lining his pockets with big coin.
On a side note...what other politician, Dem or Rep, openly admits to being anti-environmental? Normally you'd think that would mean the end of your political career. Amazing he's been around this long.

Steelyhorn: I appreciate your answer, and owe you one back. Yes, I did vote for Clinton - twice - and I'll be glad to give you my thoughts on his "draft dodging."
Y'see, I went to Vietnam, as part of my 23 year military career (and came home to a very unwelcome U.S.). Some of my friends protested that so-called war, and after being over there, I had great admiration for them. If you went to "Nam," you should know what a farce it was, being more over U.S. oil interests than democracy. Then, our government wouldn't even let us win. I don't know a single VN vet who is proud of his/her part in that Big Mistake (the only "war" this country ever lost!) I could go on and on, but you get my drift.
Bottom line: I have more respect for VN protestors than rich dudes like Dan Quayle and G.W. who dodged by getting into the Guard through "special channels."
Tight lines.

Scaly, Ditto and roger that. When I got home I told my buddys to go to B.C. on a fishing trip and stay until the Navy painted all its boats gray again.

Interesting, not only does it sound as if you regret fighting for your country, you have also given up on continuing the fight. To answer a few questions posed earlier, yes I did have the same opportunities for success as G.W., Bill Clinton, Dan Quayle and the rest. You see, the constitution guarantees me that opportunity along with life, liberty and the PURSUIT of happiness. These rights are endowed upon all of us by our creator and cannot be usurped by anyone. At the most, one can only be prevented by force from exercising them. I also believe that liberals (of the modern definition) can be and are a serious threat to our way of life and our DISTINCT American culture. The ideas and programs they advocate have never been proved to survive for any significant period of time. The proposal of collectivists is that we should all be equal in OUTCOME and I for one despise that thought. I work much harder at my job than some of you and not near as hard as others and I don't deserve to be in the same lot as any of you. What I do deserve is what I am willing to work for at the market value of said work at the time of service. No more and no less. The fact that 56 men signed their own death warrants 225 years ago does not fall lightly on my shoulders. I am proud just to tell people I am American. I am doubly proud of the men in my family who have fought and died in every major american conflict since 1813, irrespective of the reason behind the war or the president at the time. These 56 men knew full well that by signing the Declaration of Independence that they were inviting any british subject to kill not only them but their families. An opportunity the british looked forward to with great anticipation. They would lose any fortunes they may have amassed and sacrifice what little freedom they did have. They had the courage and foresight to do it anyway so that we might enjoy the rights and priveledges that were rightfully ours. They had the courage to tell the world exactly who to blame for this unheard of act of rebellion. We are the ONLY society in history to be founded on an IDEA and to this point it is still working, thanks to the inspired thought of those 56 men.

If you fellas have such an affinity for the socialist ways of Canada that you felt it necessary to encourage friends to go there, I have but one question for you. Why did you not pack up and move there upon your return to the states. Your countrymen were ungrateful, your President put you through hell for a few gallons of oil and no matter what you might have done, no matter how hard you worked, studied, toiled and sweat you were never gonna amount to anything close to G.W. or Bubba for lack of nothing more than a silver spoon. Heck, after that you might be packing now huh??? I doubt it. The reason you stayed boils down to one word..........FREEDOM. The freedom to stay, the freedom to complain, the freedom to express your displeasure and most of all the freedom to succeed or fail on your own merits. If you don't catch any fish one day do you blame all of the wealthy fishermen around you with their fancy sleds and expensive motors and 5 GLoomis rods, ten Curado reels and 20 lbs of eggs for controlling all of the fishing, no you don't.(unless your really a pansy) You blame yourself and your fishing prowess. Succeed or fail on your own merits. Society and economics are not a zero sum game, in that just because I gain, you do not necessarily lose. If you would care for an in depth lesson in economics and the truth about free markets I would be happy to oblige.

I pity you both who cannot find pride in defending the security of the greatest nation ever conceived. And yes, I do consider beating back communism at every turn fighting for the security of America, it has always been a threat and it always will be.

Huh? The rich pay 90% of the countries taxes? lol Countless large corporations don't pay taxes because the "rich" dudes in power hold the government hostage by threatening to take their offices, plants, and JOBS to other places that won't tax them. The individual rich have many loopholes and write-offs to minimize their taxes. And reading thru these posts I didn't see anyone suggest that we should all be equals with equal OUTCOMES, as a couple rightwings wrongly implied. Only suggestions for a more fair progressive system of distribution. I admire your passionate patriotic stance 45 but your right wing economic fundamentals don't work quite as you describe in the real world. Women and minorities not only get paid less than the upper class white males for the SAME work, but they are also unfairly discriminated from equal opportunity! Proven facts!

Wit45cal, Wow this is heavy thought provoking stuff! Back in 1968 I don't think to many young kids like my self actually knew that Canada had a Liberal Socialist government to run to. Some did though know that the other side of the border was safe from being sent to Viet Nam and that was the reason to go.
As to why not go there after I returned, thats an amazing question to ask somebody who paid with blood sweat and tears the price of his DISTINCT FREEDOM. I didn't have to go, as a matter of fact during the last 30 plus years one thought has always helped me through the rough spots in my personal role as an activist in differing agendas. When faced with an unpopular outcome or a hostile group I always think in regard to the negative outcome or response so what are they going to do send me to Nam. The whole idea being that regardless what is done from now on nothing can be done to me that is more horriffic than that which was done to me and many like myself by the powers that be. So mate dont get to lofty with your Philosophy eloquent as it is it just don't quite ring true.

Wit45cal: Up yours, "civilian" (if your head isn't still in the way)! You've got colossal nerve jumping on two VN vets about patriotism. Are you some kind of sheep who would march into something you knew was wrong?? And never question your government?
Native Son and I went over, remember? And killed some commies (and God knows who else, since the enemy didn't wear uniforms). That make you happy? I then put another 15 years in the service before "retiring," still ready to fight for your freedoms if a legitimate conflict had arisen during those volatile "cold war" years. In fact, I'm still ready now, since military retirement means a "standby" status. My uniforms are still in the closet (with my guns), in case I again have to defend your freedom to twist the truth!
You like American history? Why don't you bone up on the Vietnam era, and try to understand how that "war" was nothing like the others we've fought, and why it tore this country apart. Or visit a psych ward at a VA hospital and ask those poor VN vets what they think of their sacrifices, and whether they'd do it again.
And then tell us about your combat record. Surely you've been in uniform too, right?? If not, then stick to a subject you know about!
Sincerely, "7.62mm"

Getting back to Slade: How can anyone, especially a hunter or a fisherman, justify voting for Slade Gorton? The guy is a one-man environmental disaster. Take a look at his voting record, he has consistently voted in favor of the rape of our natural resources. Be it mining, logging, or his opposition to breaching the Lower Snake River dams in contradiction of the overwhelming majority of scientific opinion, not to mention his dilatory tactics that have held up removal of the Elwha dams for years now. I suspect that the balance of his support among sportsmen comes from NRA members and supporters who are concerned with the loss of his vote on gun control issues. I'm an NRA member myself, and believe that the Second Amendment is as much a bulwark of our freedoms as is the First Amendment, but I draw the line at Slade! I'm sorry, Charlton and Wayne, but the price that we would have to pay to retain Slade Gorton is just too high.

Getting back to the topic, FISHING. Wit45Cal said to go ahead and vote against Slade if you are a one issue voter. What do you think this is? This is a fishing message board, not a political debate. The question is wether Slade is bad for the sport fisherman, and I think we have answered that.

hammerhead, you better know what you are talking about before you "lol". 5% of the population pays almost 90% of the taxes. Your credability is pretty low when you shoot you mouth off without knowing what your talking about.

No offense to Hammerhead or Corky or anyone, really, but when you make such profound statements like that you are sort of "shooting your mouths off" if you don't back your ultra partisan claims with creditable and verifiable evidence. Excuse my venting a bit here because any heated political discussion I've ever heard turns to seemingly questionable self-serving claims and often baseless discrediting of others who are of the opposite political persuation. Geez, how about something real on here instead of slinging partisan bullsh*t like the political candidates do? The only thing I've read here in 57 posts I can put some real faith in is that Slade should fade.

Hey Reeltruth it is an election year and the point is well taken but realisticly don't you think this disscussion has been good for the folks who want a little exposure to the views of some anglers who actually think about who and why they will vote. I dont doubt for a minute that some one with ties to the Gorton campaign has shown this to someone in the political planning group for some action during the campaign this fall. I doubt it will have much impact on dear old Slade other than to have him focus briefly on a press release proudly announcing how he almost single handed got the nessecary funding for the removal of the Lower Elwha Dam and additional funding to study the restoration project (translated Delay tactic)
But your right the chatter did range away from traditional fish guy prattle and I for one think it was good.
Preston hows the Yakima fishing.

RT, here is your facts.(http://www.allegromedia.com/sugi/taxes/#Head-3.htm). They actualy have it around 80/20 with the bottom 20% in the minus bracket. I am sorry for bringing politics to this fishing board, but some people, especialy young new voters like chris get their info from from like minded people (fisherman) like hammerhead and fishstick, who say things that are not accurate. I know when I was young I used to listen to what ever anyone on MTV said, and make a fool out of myself in political conversations. I will drop this conversation and try to stick to fishing. Although I am an obvious right winger, I have no intention on voting for Slade, so please don't take my arguement as a plug for him. He is obviously full of s**t, and does not care about the environment. Again I am sorry for getting away from fishing.

Here's another that has it at the top 25% paying 80% (http://www.reagan.com/HotTopics.main/HotMike/document-7.29.1997.1.html) but interesting, the top 1% of wage earners pay 30%. OK i'll quit.

[This message has been edited by corky (edited 07-28-2000).]

Thanks for the posts guys. Lots of interesting heated political debate and history. Not really what I was looking to stir up though. I already knew I didn't like him just didn't understand the support I saw while driving though forks. Has he done some good work for the logging community, since the fishing store is in a logging town?

I've never been able to understand where Gorton's support among sportsmen comes from. He came into office, many years ago, on a promise to do something about tribal fishing rights, which most of us dismissed as unlikely or impossible even then. As I said above, he has been a reliable vote against gun control measures, which appeals to some. I suspect that his support in a logging community like Forks comes largely from his steadfast opposition to nearly all conservation measures and his repeated efforts to gut the Endangered Species Act (remember the spotted owl?). At the Puyallup gun show in July, I noticed a "Sportsmen for Gorton" booth which, fortunately (in my opinion), didn't seem to be doing much business.

Ok, we have wasted enough time and space to this thread to knoe we are not going to change opinions from either the right or left.
Our only goal now is to wait till November and see what happens. Maybe the right will out vote the left or maybe not enough votes will be tallied to make any changes at all, who knows.
Let us get back to more important things like lieing to all the other memebers on this bb about all the fish we landed on 3 pound test in 2 mintues each.

elmtree (woody)

Native Son- Thank you for at least being honest. I admire you for not only protecting my freedom but also for having the courage to go. I believe that my "why not go" point was made by your succint explanation. I for one am glad that you stayed. Thank you for your service sir.

Scaly- While it is not my first name on that wall in DC, it certainly is my last name. My family has also, like yours, paid the price of freedom in war. With that said, lets get back to my main points. Regardless of whose numbers you trust, the top wage earners in this country pay the overwhelming majority of the tax dollars. The two women running to face slade (non-caps intended) are both liberal socialists at heart and voting for them is a guarantee that all of us will take a step closer to the type of government you dutifully faught against. My attitude toward freedom, capitalism and America will not change and I am DA*N glad that people like you, native son and my father and uncle had the opportunity to kill commies. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. I will probably vote for slade only because there will be no better option for me. I respect your right to vote otherwise and would gladly take up arms to insure your opportunity to do so.

I am glad that you too decided to stay in the US after the war. This country is better off with capable soldiers at the ready.

PS- I have not only talked to but hired many VN vets and will continue to do so as long as they are willing and able to work for a living. As far as visiting a VA hospitals, my friends and relatives weren't lucky enough to get to the hospitals. I will continue to visit them at the cemetaries (including Arlington) of this great country sir.

Hammerhead- Well my friend, I could go on for hours proving to you that your ideas about the economy are completely wrong but I fear it would all fall on deaf ears. One must first have the courage to hear and believe the truth. I could just remind you that white males have over 150 years head start on women and minorities in the work force (in large numbers) and that women tend to be somewhat fluid in the workforce due to the occasional sojourn into motherhood.

Rather than attack me personally or raise points with no basis in reality you might try to cite for all our benefit any time in history when socialism has succeeded or when capitalism has failed. You might also try to disprove (with facts not rhetoric) any of the points I have made. While none of us like slade much, if at all, the platform upon which he runs is a step up from the alternative. If we could just get him to stick to that platform after he's elected we'd all be better off. Oh, to dream.

A final thought for all of us. Let us all vote our conscience and may the best man (person?) win. Until then....let's catch and release fish.

Wit: I appreciate both your listening and your feedback. I'm truly sorry to hear about your father, uncle and friends, and hope you know I consider their sacrifices to be as supreme as can be, wherever they served.
Peace and tight lines.
p.s. Native Son just left for Canada... but only for some fishing.

Getting back to the original question. Nobody has proved why we shouldn't vote against Slade Gorton. I think we all know where Slade stands on fishing issues. This discussion seems to have degenerated into a bunch of political rhetoric. I don't think there are any politicians that support sports fishing.

Fellas!!!

This is the single most important election of your LIVES....You better clue to in to the reality now!! Slade is the best thing you got going fellas!..His opponents are democrats and demos are supported by the netters and the HOOPS!!(indians that is)..Regardless of his opinion on dams..he is a republican and a conservative...therefore if you want to keep your freedoms(fishing and hunting) you support SLADE...BOTTOM LINE FELLAS!!!no options whatsoever!!..Now back to the DAMS!..if the Dams were the problem we would have **** piles of fish in every other river that doesnt have a dam!!!...HMMMM..so where are those rivers that are so stuffed with steelies because they dont have dams!!

What Rivers are you talking about that don't have dams? There aren't that many, and the ones that I fish do have the best fishing.

Jake...

Name a river without a dam that DOESNT have or hasnt had a problem...Columbia doesnt seem to have had a springer problem this year did?...wasnt it a record number?...hmmm..and the dams are still there...go figure

Hey bowers,

Feel free to vote for your freedom-loving Repubs. from Ohio. I'll take my chances with the Dem running against Slade. And Wit45, stop trying to make it sound like you have some factual economic reason to vote GOP. You may have an economics-based OPINION as to why you'll vote GOP, but let's not confuse opinion with fact. Sure, the richest 10% of the population pays the vast majority of taxes, but that's how it should be. You pay according to your ability to pay. Gee, you think I feel sorry for a guy who has to pay a 36% rate when he makes 100 million dollars a year. No, I don't. Poor guy, now he only has 64 million to spend this year. And anyone who isn't naive knows that the more money you make, the more ways you have to shelter your income, so there aren't many millionaires paying in at 36%. However, the poor slobs like me who make 30-50K/year have a hard time "hiding" income. So, who's your friend, GOP or Dem? Guess that's just a matter of OPINION.

And don't start with me on the personal freedom issue, either. Sure, the GOP will fight for you to keep your guns, but what are they doing in MY bedroom and doctor's office. And why do they insist on using the Bible to justify these intrusions, when the church-state separation required by the Constitution is crystal-clear? And why does the GOP feel the Second Ammendment is written in stone, but the First Amendment isn't? These are personal freedom issues the GOP doesn't want to talk about, because their hypocrisy is illuminated.

Are the Dems without errs in judgment or hypocrisy? Not at all, just look at the theives in the S&L scandal years ago that cost us taxpayers billions. Slimy Repubs AND Dems alike, caught with their hand in the cookie jar. And in case you memory has wavered, Neil Bush was one of the main players in that scandal. Funny how Neil is hardly spoken of now.

One other thought. You do realize that being a veteran doesn't make you any more or less of an American than anyone else, don't you? You speak as if your vote is more important, or carries more weight, than mine because you're a vet. and I'm not. Well, I'll say this: You and other vets, especiallly those who served during times of war, are brave beyond description, and should be respected by ALL Americans. But your vote is no more meaningful than mine, and your opinion is no more meaningful than mine. That being said, I thank you for your service to our country.

I'm voting AGAINST Slade, simple as that. I don't care if his opponent wears a hammer and sickle patch on his/her jacket, since they, too, can be voted out of office. I'm far more leery of someone who rants about freedom, while special-interest money flows into his pockets, than I am of a communist insurgence into US politics. Just my OPINION, and I won't claim it's a fact. But I WILL VOTE in November, and I'll be voting against Slade Gorton.

Fish on........

Bowers,
They must be in Cinnci, because they sure are`nt here.
By the way, thanks for taking the whiner Ken G jr. off our hands..*L*

First off I must extend my sincere gratitude to "Bowers" for taking that whining little ballplayer out of Seattle, it almost certaintly gave us a chance at winning the big one!!!!! Secondly, to Jake Dogfish, I fish both sides alot. I personally keep very close records of my fishing trips.. You don't have any kind of arguement at all saying that there is better fishing on the rivers without dams!!! You most certatintly haven't fished very much on any of the tribs. on the Columbia.. My overall best fishing hrs/fish is definately not off a coastal rivers andI fish the Peninsula rivers several times a year.. Great place to fish but there are not nearly the numbers there should be!! Thats not my opinion, that comes from years of records and keeping track of the pure numbers of hours per hook-up!!! So don't splash any of that B.S. that the non-dammed rivers have superior runs than the dammed rivers... Face it both types of river systems are pathetically low in comparison to there historical levels!!!!

Well said *****!!

Well said Dan

Bowers, if you want to vote for Slade, move about 2,000 miles west. But if your an angler, and angling is a voting issue, you won't be voting for him. For those true and true GOPers, by all means vote Gorton, its your right as an American. I hardly vote for candidates solely on how I believe they will treat us sporties. There are a lot of other things that bear considering when voting for our State senator.

However, there is no mistaking Slade Gortons abyssmal environmental record that includes taking positions that are very unfriendly to salmon. He is pro-dams, pro-industry, and pro-commercial fisheries. Bowers, where do get this stuff about demos being pro-netting? Most are anti-commercial netting and pro-treaty netting. This bothers some, but is it any worse than pro-dams, pro-commercials, pro-pollution, anti-treaty Slade? Or maybe its just the "hoops" that you don't like--rather derogatory term by the way, please don't repeat it here.

And as for the Columbia....pre-dam and pre- commercial numbers of salmon numbered in the 10s of millions. A couple of hundred thousand spring chinook is reason for hope, but no reason to celebrate. Its sad when a 10 year record is an order of magnitude less than historical numbers. And read some of the posts more carefully, this big return is because of several consecutive high water years, which increases downstream survival over said dams, and good ocean conditions. Slade or anyone else can't control the weather.

Bottom line, if you want to support Slade, by all means do your civic duty, but don't connect your admiration for him or the GOP with sport fishing issues.



[This message has been edited by obsessed (edited 08-01-2000).]

Obsessed, Please answer a big question for me? could you tell me what the historical levels for the Kalama,Elochaman,Hoh, Bogy, SolDuc etc.. where?? These rivers have pathetic returns and its only a long slingshot throw from the headwaters to the salt!!!!!!! Maybe you need some help dicovering the problems, NETS, and habitat...Lets try and get rid of the nets first, than we might see a few more fish in the systems!!Oh thats right it is their ceremonial right to net a river when it cannot even sustain a sportfishery!!

Hey steelyhorn, I never said that Rivers without dams have superior runs, so don't put words in my mouth. I don't fish the coast very much either so I can't compare with those Rivers. I am mainly talking about Puget Sound. My Point is, that I doubt someone from Cincinnati even knows what Rivers have dams and what ones don't. He obviously has a partisan agenda that has nothing to do with fishing in our state. Or wait, am I talking about Slade??? hmmm.

Fact: The top 10% of earners pay most taxes
Fact: I have, over the course of the last 5 years, entered into the top 10% bracket.(editorial note here...I had no idea that the threshold for making the top 10% was so low. You 30-50K folks are VERY close!!)
Fact: Tax rate increases reduce treasury income.
Fact: Tax rate decreases increase treasury income. (please refer to OMB or GAO reports 1960 - 1998)
Fact: The current tax code is written for social engineering and special treatment for political sweethearts of both parties not revenue generation.(see "sin tax" and "methanol subsidies")
Fact: The second ammendment is meant to protect us from an oppressive or tyrannical government.(see "federalist papers" or "constitution of the United States of America")
Fact: The constitution does not SEPARATE church and state.(it merely prohibits establishment of a particular religion by the state)
Fact: "People should pay according to their ability to pay" is one of the tenets of Marxism, the basis for modern socialism.
Fact: The fairest tax system is a flat tax.(everyone pays the same RATE)
Fact: The western states dams are not the only cause of poor fish runs.(perhaps not even the primary cause)
Fact: Slade Gorton will have more power to make positive change regarding fish should a concise, fact based answer to the problem arise.
Fact: I have made a comprehensive case for voting for a conservative senator in WA state.
Fact: No one has made a comprehensive argument against a conservative senator based in fact.
Fact: Every state that has leaned in the conservative direction in the last ten years has seen dramatic improvements in areas social and economic.(John Engler, Tommy Thompson, Christie Whitman, George Bush, Jeb Bush, Frank Keating etc.)
Fact: Economic prosperity leads to social prosperity in a free marketplace.
Fact: There is no better fish on the planet than steelhead.(stretching the definition of fact on that one)
Fact: Patty Murray has been voted #1 dimmest bulb in DC every year for the last three.(do we want more of this?)


Fact: I'm done with this thread

Well Marty I think you should get some kinda of a reward for creating the post with most replys ever in the history of this famed bulletin board.


--
Ryan

Great take Dan S.! You too Obsessed. You guys wrote the real truth. - One thing with me though is I am strongly anti-netting; either by commercials or Indians (but not necessarily anti-treaty otherwise). - wit45, while I admire some of the things you have done for our country and some of the things you stand for I must take strong exception to many of the things you claim as Facts in your above post. First and foremost, the fairest system of taxation can NEVER be a flat tax until we have a fair system of distribution of compensation and wealth, based on actual contribution value to society! There is no such thing as actual "fair" market value systems for compensation because they are much too strongly based on unfair power position advantage. There is THE Fact! Secondly, Slade Gorton will NOT have more power to make postive changes regarding fish because he is complexly hogtied by his wealthy constituents! He has already PROVEN this, so pull your head out of the sand on that one. Third, I think it's quite self-serving for you to make claims giving conservatives credit for some state's improved economic recovery without mentioning the bigger picture. And that is under the previous 3 Republican Presidential terms in office the overall economy of this country went into the toilet when voters were hoodwinked into buying the "less and no new taxes" false promises and the BS "trickle down effect" pitch of helping the rich get richer; which in reality broadened the gap between the "haves & have nots" more than ever before! The current 2 Demo terms in Presidetial office has turned that around into one of the strongest economies this country has ever seen, while at the same time bringing down the crippling immense federal deficit created by the previous Repubican regimes. Undeniable Facts! Here is another fact. During this election year the Republicans will do 2 things above all else: attempt to falsely claim credit for the above mentioned economic turnaround, and make more false promises of large tax cuts trying to buy votes from the "unaware". Here is a prediction: just like the last 2 Presidential elections, I think the "unaware" have had the wool scraped off of their eyes and will keep the Demos in the Whitehouse. And if the majority of Republican senators can ever be pressured into fair campaign finance reform to eliminate the big advantage for the wealthy in all elections we wouldn't even have to debate the Facts. Or ...... maybe I'm just all wrong. I'm sure you're going to let me know. - RT




[This message has been edited by Reel Truth (edited 08-02-2000).]

Mr Reel truth...you are the normal "mainstream" press informed taxpayer...that is made to believe that all prosperity comes from Bill Clinton...I think he invented microsoft and the internet didnt he?...or so they would have you believe..The prosperity you are experiencing now is from 12 yrs of REAGAN!!!...The economy doesnt turn around on a dime..it takes a long time for trends to happen..And of course there was huge deficit...it was called DEFENSE SPENDING...due to DEMOCRATS AND LIBERALS...or Communists as they are really known...Voting for a democrat is voting against freedom....its voting against ever being able to carry a gun if you so choose..and its voting for SOCIALISM>>MORE GOV...less independence...QUIT LISTENING to NBC and inform yourself...Damn right Slade is pro industry...hell...WHO pays your damn salary!!..I may live in Cincy now but as SteelyHORN can attest there is not too manypeople that spent more time on the rivers of Washington...Every commercial fishiong org...supports the demos in all elections...as well as the Sierra Club...PAWS...PETA>>>every rabbit hugging org int he country supports demos...the very same people that want to take away the things you LOVE to do..SO CLUE IN>>>

Jakedog,Your exact words were " the rivers without dams have the best fishing" Out of that comment I figured "best" also could mean superior fishing!!!!! Next time I will just quote you verbatum!! In defense of Bowers, boys you should know that he is a friend of mine and that in the last decade fished more than most full time guides!!! So ya, he is just alittle bit familier with how our system is being run..The reason he had to move was because he was fishing to much and not making enough money to get into that extreme tax bracket!!! I think everytyhing is fine now that he cannot fish anymore!! Enough about him!! R.T., I have enjoyed your wisdom and experience you have brought to this board, but I want to ask you one question.You don't personally have to answer hopefully there will be someone out there that can answer for all of us. In comparison, at what percentage is the Kalama R. returning Salmon and Steelys today versus 50 yrs ago. Compare this in percentage against the mighty Columbia 50 yrs ago.. Everyone wants to blame the dams as the immediate savior of our fish runs, I think the immediate savior is to eliminate ALL indiscriminating netting first then lets see how we do. ONE STEP AT A TIME, LETS TAKE THE OBVIOUS FIRST!!!! maybe a better example would be the Hoh or the Bogy, these rivers have zero Columbia influence..Please somebody post these numbers!!I be looking them up myself also..

REAGAN??? See what I mean. Put on your boots for more guys. ------- Steelyhorn, I agree with you wholeheartedly about getting rid of the nets, as I mentioned in my above post. But nobody can deny the detrimental effects on salmon and steelhead runs that the dams have had! Comparing dammed river's run downturns to non-dammed rivers downturns is comparing apples to oranges (too many other factors, such as the timber industry); it's not a crditable arguement for the dams within fish issues. However, I'm not sure I'm for breaching them because of the immense costs and uncertainties of the outcomes. Better to improve technology to transport fish around the dams. And of course there are many more factors that need to be addressed than just those 2 issues (habitat degredation, water usage, fishing pressure, and on and on). We are now going to be forced by federal decree to imporve these situations. I wonder if the wealthy influential interests will find ways to "slide" (or is it "Slade") around the new fish protective laws while the rest of us conform? - Steve

Guys,

This is what our elected politico's love; us arguing with each other, putting heat on each other, rather than putting heat on our elcted officials. The more we argue with each other, the less time there is to realize that ALL politicians at the Congressional level are as crooked as a dog's hind leg. If you're not crooked, you'll never get elected to Congress. But hey, I'm game for a little dispute.

The Reagan years; what I bright spot in American politics. Tax cuts and increased defense spending (i.e. Star Wars Defense System), which changed us from a creditor nation into a nation packing a 5 trillion dollar debt. Thanks Ron, what better to leave your kids with than a mountain of debt to pay off? My folks, and some of you Reagan lovers, were the first generation IN HISTORY to hand a lower standard of living off to their children than they enjoy/enjoyed. How proud they must be. If I can't hand MY kids a higher standard of living than I enjoy, then at least I can do my part to hand them an environment that's better than the one I lived in. That's why Slade won't get my vote. What good is a fat wallet if you have to spend your income in a world decimated by the industries that own our politicians?

Don't like BIG government, huh? Then check out Slade's voting record regarding Federal wiretaps, and Federal ID cards. Want the Feds to know where you are and what you're up to all the time? Then, by all means, vote for Slade. I figure, as long as I pay my taxes, the Feds don't need to know what I'm doing in my spare time and they sure as h*ll don't need to know what I'm saying on my phone or via email.

I'll just vote my conscience in November....and my conscience says "VOTE AGAINST SLADE GORTON". We'll see what the vote tallies say, and then whine at each other again after the elections.

Fish on........

RT, I can't beleive you man. After your post on 7/28, I backed off the politics, only to have more liberal BS be spouted not only to have your support, but to have you do exactly what you complained about on your post. Well you did a good job trying to make Clinton a hero but the reality is, there is a congress and a senate that is not run by billy's boys. Also the republican presidents you say caused havoc brought down communism, so Clinton had no extra defense spending except when he needed some distractions for his own follies. Yes here it is, repubs trying to take away the great and powerful clintons glory. Sorry man but I can't beleive you just turned around and did exactly what you complained about. Guess I gave you more respect than you deserved.

[This message has been edited by corky (edited 08-02-2000).]

corky,

Calm yourself, man. You're letting this political disagreement get the best of you. Regardless of RT's political views, I get the feeling he's a pretty nice guy, likely to give you the shirt off his back. That's why I'm going to the Nisqually on Thurs. I'll bet you'll see liberals and conservatives having a good time trading stories and barbs without getting all worked up about it.

Maybe you just haven't been fishing enough lately. My recommendation is to catch two steelhead, and call back in the morning.

Fish on........

I am going to set the record straight as far as my stance on the Dams. I am not a dam lover by any means. We have created a problem with them that cannot be denied.. However, my stance is that why can't we TRY(awefully big word)to let them coexist with todays modern era.. There has to be better ways for the fish to navigate pass these cement monsters. I just get alittle defensive when people rip on the Columbia River system and there lack of fish and blame it mainly on the Dams.. As I've mentioned before I've fished the majority of the Salmon and Steelhead Rivers inthis State and cannot believe it when I fish rivers that are so close to salt that I can smell it and you struggle to get hook-ups or worse yet they have an emergency closure do to lack of fish returning?!?! This is why I am so defensive towards many of you on this subject.. As far as politics goes there will never be much common ground amongst us. After following this post I've decided that the majority of you guys are definatly on the Demos. side. That is fine, But as DanS said, ALL politicians are crooked!!No truer words can be said! I hope you guys someday realize that those raging liberals will do less for you in the long run than ole sladeee..I not saying sladeee is worth a sh**t but the flip side might be much worse. Oh well, lets see what happens over the next 10 yrs.. DanS I am not sure if you are cancelling my vote or I will be cancelling yours.. I vote absentee so maybe you'll cancell mine..Oh well. Also, I am also done posting about politics for awhile, have to get onto another topic my blood pressure can't take it. I am gonna half to crack me a cold brew and take a break. See ya

DanS, I realy do think RT is the great guy you think he is. I have conversed with him a couple of times via e-mail. I guess I just let my politics get the best of me, but he did say in an earlier post that I shouldn't be posting patisan political views, and then tuned around and patted you an the back, and threw in his own. I wouldn't hold you guys' political veiws against you, but that seemed a bit hypacritical. I think I will try your suggestion, tomorrow I am working in Forks and I'm going an hour and a half early to throw some spinners on the Duc. I feel better already.

Hey steelyhorn, you miss quoted me once again. I only wrote two sentences, I would think you could get that right. scroll up next time.

ENOUGH ALREADY!!!!

Lets all of us get back to some we can talk and if you want to debate the issue's go find a polictical debate board. I am sure this year there are far more of them then there is room on here.
Please stop and desist from straying so far off what this board is about.
WE ARE NOT GOING TO CHANGE EACH INDIVIDUALS MIND HERE AND NOW. LET US VOTE OUR MINDS IN NOVEMBER, NOT HERE.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH

sorry for yelling, but this has gotten out of hand. I keep my politic's inside and do not discuss amoung others, so as not to stir up such a mess as this thread has become.


elmtree (woody)

Well Corky you are right. I re-read my earlier post which I had hoped might difuse too much partisanship on here, so we could stay within Marty's subject of Slade Gorton and his probable affects on state fisheries and the environment. I followed this thread with interest, until I let wit 45 get under my skin with his "Facts" post. I just couldn't resist pointing out the ones I believe don't hold water, and why. Sorry about the seeming hypocracy; which I do detest! I will be more careful in the future before suggesting avoidance of anything I might not be able to avoid myself. - BTW, why don't you come on down to the Nis? And only to fish and talk fish I hope (no politics?) . - RT - Edit: BTW, I only expressed a left wing view of macro economics. I don't agree with all of the other left wing agenda either! For example, I don't relish the idea of only criminals having hidden guns while us law abiding citizens should have to give up our right to bear arms! Others too, but I think 'nuff said?



[This message has been edited by Reel Truth (edited 08-02-2000).]

RT, politics does get under ones skin doesn't it. I should have realized that when i started ranting. The Nis is a long drive for a day of fishing, but don't be suprised if work and family and peak seasons come together and you receive an e-mail. No politics while fishing.(It defeats the purpose)

Don't let it stop just yet. We have only a few posts to go over 100. Never seen that on here. I wish I could think of something more to say. Dam. Slade. Ickshnay.

Friends don't let friends vote Republican!

Hey Steelhead boy, I probably wouldn't like you even if I knew you!!! Go back to your Union Job....O.K. now I'm REALLY done posting about politics. Sorry I just couldn't resist alittle retaliation...Pres. BUSH 2000

[This message has been edited by steelyhorn hunter (edited 08-03-2000).]

Can't resist when this close to 100 posts

Reeltruth- I too have enjoyed our banter. I do pity you however for being so misinformed. Your arguments are terrifically emotional but sadly incorrect. I supplied source material wherever I could on all of my above "Facts" and will complete and/or enhance them for your benefit if needed. If you have a disagreement with any of them feel free to cite, chapter and verse, your supporting documentation. If you would like more specific supporting documentation on any subject from me, just ask and I will be happy to oblige. As you have probably surmised by now, I enjoy a good debate. I just insist on using facts when possible.
Regarding the booming economy of the nineties. Outside the hiccup between 1990 and 1994 most economists agree(most notably Alan Greenspan) that the nineties are a continuation of the eighties and the policies enacted by Reagan in 81 and 82.(there's that dirty "R" word again) Regarding the spiraling deficits, treasury receipts from 1981 to 1989 DOUBLED while congressional spending TRIPLED.(see GAO or OMB records 1980-1989 on receipts and congressional record or omnibus spending bills of same period for spending numbers) Please note that the congress was controlled by demo's all but two of those years. While the lack of defense spending has accounted for some of the reduced deficits of late, much can be attributed to refinancing the long term govt debt to short term low rate debt, thus lowering the overall debt owed when including interest. Please note here that defense spending as a percentage of GDP is now the lowest since the 1930's and readiness and morale is the lowest in modern history.(we have thousands of servicemen on FOODSTAMPS for petes sake!!!!) We also finished paying off the S and L debacle (a problem of both parties) in 1992 which had an annual cost roughly equal to the current annual defense budget. Add to this the lowering of some minor taxes (since the 94 elections and not a second before) and the subsequent trickle down effect of that freed-up capital (creating jobs and taxpayers) and the still booming economy and treasury receipts are projected to go up dramatically for the forseeable future. According to some reputable albeit right leaning research institutes, had congress just frozen spending in 1989 not only the deficits but the national debt would now be nearly gone. (personally, I don't believe that the deficits are really gone since the SSI trust fund dollars must be used to make it happen) A little piece of sobering reality about the power of politicians and their appetite for our money.

In your earlier post, you stated that "there could never be a fair flat tax until there is a more fair and equitable system of compensation and wealth distribution according to societal benefit" or something close to that. I humbly request that you expound on that theory and how it would benefit any of us or all of us. Please include how much would be enough compensation and who would decide "societal benefit". Also please tell me if the compensation and wealth distribution would be equal for all and if not, who would decide who gets what. If, in fact, you propose that all of us get the same amount, why not just have the govt supply all things and eliminate compensation altogether?

This theory is not often proposed in western cultures and you have piqued my interest. I will give you advance notice that this request is an attempt to force you embarrass yourself trying to explain it and your predictable discomfort will not last long. You may respond in an email if you would prefer not to fill up this thread with your response.

As I'm sure you've noticed, I pay particular attention to such matters. If you insist on trying to dispute the facts I present, please come prepared. If I may be so bold, may I suggest that you get and read The wealth of nations written by Adam Smith. First published in 1776 it is a virtual textbook on the American economy as it was designed.

As for Slade.....I will gladly open my mind and wallet to any CONSERVATIVE candidate who wishes to oppose him. Until then I will be forced to support him while holding my nose. (or continue the write in campaign for myself)

Can't wait to see the magic 100 posts happen on this uncomfortable yet needed thread.

Good day,
L

[This message has been edited by wit45cal (edited 08-03-2000).]

Huh? ..... UNCLE

?

Please pardon, but I just couldn't help smiling the previous 2 posts because I knew that I was going to be the guy that made "THE" 100th post! - RT