To all:

I feel that this a necessary post for the future of not only the Cowlitz River but all of the rivers in this State.

As sportfisherman (ladies included in this word):

Do you believe that NMFS has done us a positive service??

Do you believe that their allocations have been fair and reasonable??

Do you believe that their meetings were to really hear what we had to say?

We have all been played hard on this page by a critical member of NMFS, SalmoG, he also posts on another site for the most part opposite information than what is posted here. He has his instrument out and is playing loud, the more he is listened to the louder he gets until he finally feels the need to post about a meeting that hasn't happened yet just so he could be first. NMFS has a quality leader in:

*************EDITED BY BOB****************

Now don't take me wrong if you think that NMFS is a great and wonderful organization that will pull off recovery of all salmon by all means let him now that...he will need the positive feedback.


Jim

Anonymous posting are ok if you are talking egg cures or where you caught some fish. But when you start talking critical information with the desire to shape thinking I want my information coming from someone that has a name and a phone number, don't know about you.

[This message has been edited by Bob (edited 08-07-2000).]

I would like to point out one thing jim, his post never said he had already been to the meeting!!! it says tonight!

Jim,

I would suggest you back the slam with the site locations and the postings you are refering to. I think you owe it to SalmoG and the others of this board to explain how we have been played. So step up to the plate. You appear to on a witch hunt.


thick

Thick,
Nope no witch hunt, sorry. I will step up to any plate any time with anyone who is willing to put their name and contact number for all to see...mine is 360-740-5934 or cellular is 360-520-1175.

I will not reveal how I obtained the information at this point in time but obviously I am confident in what I say.

So thickline and salmog and anyone else...lets put our real names forward with contact numbers and deal with this in a real manner.

Jim

Jim,
you know my number and name but here it is again 360-533-1449. Call me and let me know if there is anything that I can do for ya, and also we need to get hooked up for this up and coming September on you know what river...

Andy

Ummm...What? Do you work for the F.B.I. or something? Why would I want to give you my phone number?

SalmoG
Has provided some very enlighting information to this board. I respect him for that even if he is a covert spy like you want to believe.
Keep posting Salmo I enjoy reading your informed posts.
Tight Lines

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Marty
Steelheader.net marty@steelheader.net

Jim,

I see no reason to let you contact me or provide you with any information about who I am. I requested that as SalmoG has been very informative and respectful of others thoughts and opinions on this and other boards you should step up. You selected the medium and made the remarks in this forum. This is the forum you should validate your statements. The statement you made claimed that these statements (salmo g's) were made on BB please provide the site and posting info for me and others to form our own opinions on whether he is a fox in the hen house.

I would also ask that you direct me to a site where I might determine your agends (WAA?) I don't know anything about the group and would like to learn. If you truely are interested in the restoration of wild fish then we should have no issues.


thick

[This message has been edited by Bob (edited 08-07-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Plunker (edited 08-07-2000).]

Ok, here's my .02 in all this. First off, having knowledge and using it are two different things (I know guys who can recite a repair manual, and knows all the parts by name but couldn't change oil to save their lives). Second, which strays from the subject a little, is WHY THE HECK ARE YOU PUTTING NAMES AND NUMBERS ONLINE!!!!! I can see why Salmo G may not want to give out his/her name and number/address. You have to realize one thing here. This is the internet accessible to millions/billions of people. Out of those millions, there are a ton of crazies (and crazy people from PETA). You give out info like that so willfully and you could be asking for trouble. I've been stalked a few times from people online (some from posts, some from other places online) and it's not a fun thing at all. I'll give my first name and email (which I will admit is WAY to much info) but am somewhat trusting even after what I've dealt with. I'm pretty good at reading people, but with the whole one dimensional thing with computers it's hard to read everyone. I'm sorry to stray from subject, but I feel it ties in a bit. I'll give my number and full name to some, but not all. Just think, all it takes is some right wing psycho PETA group to be watching this web page and write down all your info that you've so willingly given. Come out one morning and have your boats/cars demolished. I guess I'm a bit harsh, but being one who's been on the other side of this makes me a bit more sympathetic why salmo may be keeping quiet. It may be because he's working for the state, but maybe because he's had to deal with someone who won't leave him alone. It's easier to keep yourself hidden, then have to change numbers, and possibly your home.

Just my thoughts....

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you haven't lived til you've rowed a cataraft. Friends don't let friends run Outcasts.

Plunker,

Header69 pretty much stated my reason for not posting my personal information. Along with the fact that I realy don't think it is anyone's on this or any other BB. By the way the BB I was refering to is VFS. I hasn't seen Salmo G post there for about 12 months. I've lurked at a couple other site and have seen you provide IP information about individuals. While we are in agreement in some area I don't think providing personal information via a who is trace is appropriate.

I will agree after reading Jim's post that it isn't a direct slam and I used a poor choice of word thanks for bringing that to my attention. I'm looking for more information to help form an opinion. Seeing as I don't live in WA. Please explain in simple terms (Plunker or Jim) want is so wrong if Salmo G is ****EDITED BY BOB****. I'm sure if I don't know others will have the same ??

thick

[This message has been edited by Bob (edited 08-07-2000).]

I do not see what the big deal is. This a registered bulletin board so we do know that Salmo g. will always be Salmon g. besides everyone has their right to privacy!!
Allthough he is not as prevelent as he used to be Salmo g. has, does and hopefully still will provide us with some of the most imformative posts on this bulletin board and others.
I will always look forward to his posts because of his vast knowledge concerning such a wide range of areas...and I ask taht you leave him be so that we may still have the pleasure to read his posts.
Thanks
Ryan
ps I do not think it is Steve F.


[This message has been edited by RPetzold (edited 08-06-2000).]

Lets let Salmog speak for himself! I agree that he does have great posts sometimes but getting all excited over a handful of native fish on a river full of dams (the cowlitz has four last I counted) seems a little premature (Read his last post)no fish ladders =very little survival. T.P.U. needs to be held accountable for the damage it has done to the fish runs on the cowlitz by blocking miles of spawning beds with the dams. The cowlitz will never have fishable numbers of natives as long as the dams are in place. I will get excited when #1 the dams are gone or T.P.U. comes up with a way, Fish ladders or whatever for anadromous fish to move freely from mouth to headwaters freely.
RAMPRAT

Since there seemingly is a good possibility that this thread may be read by people involved with the NMFS I'm going to take the opportunity, even though somewhat outside direct subject line here, to get thru to this powerful silent Federal organization. Does anyone know how to contact ******EDITED BY BOB********** via e-mail or snail mail? If you have read my post threads about the "Unfair Pair" of the NMFS and Col. Tribal Comm. you know how frustrating it is trying to get an answer out of the NMFS in regards to so wrongfully coming down on the side of the Treaty Indian allocation of Col. salmon & steelhead; seemingly so unfairly over and beyond what the Judge Belloni court decision of '68 (similar to the Judge Boldt decision, jurisdictional to Washington state) stated in giving a 50/50 share of the fish "deemed harvestable". Now that the Fed. ESA is essentially determining the fish "deemed harvestable", WHY IS THE NMFS GOING ALONG WITH TRIBAL POSITIONS THAT THEY SHOULD GET ALL OF THESE ESA FISH DEEMED HARVESTABLE, INSTEAD OF THE 50/50 DECISION handed down by Judge Beloni??? So unfair is this position that the States of Washington and Oregon had to go to court to keep the Col. R. open as usual for sportsmen this summer/fall!!! Lawsuits are still pending. The Vanc. based fisheries biologist that posted anonymously about some of what is going on behind closed doors (in my allocation post thread) is essentially very close to correct, according to an ODFW official that called me on the phone to explain some of these things (also wanting to stay anonymous). Geez, what country are we in here?!? Will someone in the know in the NMFS, and Col. Tribal Commission for that matter, please come forward and give us the proper explainations to our questions about the unfair allocations of the fish we paid for, that we have a right to know about??? - Steve Hanson (RT) ReelTruth1@aol.com (I have outside motion detectors, a dog, and guns. Recently, I'm more glad that I do for some strange reason - even though likely not that big of deal.)

[This message has been edited by Reel Truth (edited 08-07-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Bob (edited 08-07-2000).]

RT, Give me a call on my cellular, I will be away for a couple of days but can point you in the right direction.

As for stalkers....been there, done that, not that scary...driving rush hour is far worse...and my goodness, have we come so far that grown men hide behind fear of someone posiibly breaking the window of their truck?? Don't let me go to war with you please!


Call me RT.

Jim

My little .02 on this ...If you have a problem with Salmog why didn't you just email him and deal with this on a personal basis but to post his name with out his permission this is cyber terrorizim you crossed a line here and I won't play you're little game...
In my little opion this is not the way to get people interested in you're organization
I'M OUT!!!!



[This message has been edited by Osprey (edited 08-07-2000).]

Come on Jim-I agree with Osprey. You should have went about this differently. Salmo G. puts up some quality posts and refrains like too many here do not and that be confrontation. Lets talk fish. Out.

What difference does it make who SalmoG works for or what his name is?? He's a hard-core fisherman like the rest of us who also likes to discuss the many issues surrounding our sport.

And why do you ass-ume he's somehow representing NMFS in his posts and not just expressing his private opinion like the rest of us??

This is a discussion board - for *fun*. His posts are thoughtful and educated and he makes it very clear when he's expressing his "opinion" and not an objective fact. And very little that he's posted has come across like Propoganda.

And, most important, he treats other anglers with respect - both in his posts and on the river.

My .02 worth.

Brian L

Jim

Upon reading your post I used the boards profile feature to scan through many of Salmo G's previous posts. I, by no means, find his posts agenda oriented, nor do I feel he is trying to promote the views of NMFS or any other organization.

Most of his posts provide first, information that seems lacking in the particular subject matter at hand, none of which I have been able to refute. Second, he provides his opinion or his own evaluation of a situation, and clearly states it as his own. Whether I agree with him or not, I always feel I have more ammunition to make a decision. I do not feel he is trying to mold my thinking in any way, something lawyers are good at (its their job).

I completely disagree with the notion that people with important things to say should do so only if their willing to provide names and other personals. A few have done this on this thread, fine; but to demand or require it? Uh uh.

Lastly, I feel a substantial agenda in your post. You obviously disagree with him on the Cowlitz issue and disagree with NMFS, so for the express purpose of weakening any credibility he has with this board, you have exposed personal information, provided his employer, attributed an agenda, and accused him of posting only to further that agenda. I don't agree with everything NMFS does, but your post is one of the most political things I have ever read on this board.

Bob Ball requires registry to keep the board clean and free of game playing, to the benefit of all. As a result, this is the most informative forum on fishing that I have experienced. However, personal anonymity and privacy are not broached to the point of feeling exposed to anyone with a modem. To expose personal information to literally millions of people all over the world, just because you don't like the policies of an organization is about as wrong as it gets.

Sorry guys, I gotta defend Salmo G. on this one. His/her posts provide exactly the type of information that is needed - accurate, timely, and relavent to the fishery issues that we're struggling with. In my view, we should all strive to maintain our anonimity (sp). Without it, the free flow of information will get cut off - quickly. And a BB dies without good information.

You might disagree with Salmo G. on his opinions but let's not get his personal views on this BB mixed up with the official policy positions of the agency (Federal, State, Tribal) or company that he happens to work for. On the Cowlitz River, all the Federal and State agencies are struggling with the reality of trying to maintain a major fishery on a river that has been permanently changed by Mossy Rock and Mayfield dams. Tacoma might get away with grand larceny on this river but FERC makes the final decisions, not NMFS or the State of Washington. I say let's get the best deal we can during relicensing recognizing that dam removal is not going to happen (as much as many of us would like it to).

Lastly, I'm the fish biologist from Vancouver that Reel Truth mentioned in his post. I will continue to provide as much fishing and fish biology information as I can since that's the purpose of the BB. In that light - NMFS is NOT agreeing with the Tribes on the Columbia River/ESA issues. NMFS is being told by the national policy makers in Washington DC that they WILL support the Tribes on this issue, both in the Columbia River and elsewhere around the country. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service has the same orders from the same folks in DC. NMFS couldn't change their position if they wanted to since it's a national policy position. The Regional Administrator from NMFS has said many times that their biggest challenge is to protect listed salmon while also fulfilling the Tribal trust responsibilities for fishing on the Columbia River and elsewhere. Doing both ain't easy and I hope we can all begin to see why.



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MSB