In light of what reportedly happened to TM near Hoodsport, similar reports around Washinton, and the Columbia R. Indian fish allocation fiasco, there has been a strong backlash expressed in the form of anger toward illegal and unethical Indain fishing activity (see "WHAT CAN BE DONE"). TM brought the same subject up on our BB and it drew similar outrage. I had an e-mail from a reader that questioned whether our responses to improper Indian activities were racist. I will also post the answer here, and encourage knowledgable Indians such as Letty Potter and others to respond to these thoughts and ideals. Here is my reply to the Q (along with other's opinions): Author Topic: Is Being Critical Of Indian Fishing Activity Racist?
RT
The only Reel Truth Moderator
Posts: 723
From:Cedar Mill , OR
Registered: Apr 2000
posted 08-27-2000 06:08 PM
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I got an e-mail from one of our BB members expressing that some of our posted complaints about Indian fishing activity borders on ehthnic group racist bashing; even though in agreement with much of what was said in principle. Since I have been one of the most critical of many of the unfairnesses and abuses of Indian fishing activity I gave it some thought and replied back. (BTW, I had a Native American that I've been corresponding with say that it is OK to refer to them as Indians). I will post my reply here and welcome feedback from anyone regarding thoughts on the subject. - My reply: After reading your e-mail letter I can see that we think much alike. I don't accept pure racism. But at the same time I am resigned to the fact that many issues are defined by race; such as Northwest Indian fishing issues. So we can't help but address the wrongs within those issues by expressing that they involve Indians. We can't say that some "people" came into Hood's Canal with nets and told sportfishers to get the heck out of here while we illegally net. "What people?!?" is the legitimate big Q that would follow and have to be answered. And, as I mentioned, those people being Indian was definitely a central factor in why it happened; not because Indians are bad (that is both racist and wrong), but because they were Indians with misguided beliefs that they deserve special fishing rights even outside Treaty and lawful provisions; and those particular ones were very disrespectful of the fishers already rightfully fishing there by the time they arrived! It's the same principle with the Col. Tribal Commission's attitudes (demanding that the NMFS give them all of the ESA fish allocations and none to the sportfishers; resulting in the NW state's lawsuit). I'm glad you see that's not racism; at least not on our part. It's realism. - RT

[This message has been edited by RT (edited 08-27-2000).]

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tshickam
Chromer
Posts: 10
From:St Helens,OR,USA
Registered: Aug 2000
posted 08-27-2000 07:22 PM
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Excellent! Your a very well spoken individual and you make excellent points. I've read through the posts and I agree that the color of the offending individuals skin has no bearing on the posts. They could have been white or any other color and that wouldn't have made it any better for those people to stomp all over the rights of Timberman. My great grandmother was a full-blooded Cherokee and we always used the term "Indian" to describe our family heritage. That, in no shape or form, is a racist word. What makes me spitting mad is again that a U.S. citizen following the posted laws, is walked all over by anyone and is told by goverment workers that "Our hands are tied". These Indians are law breakers and they are doing their tribes a disservice by operating this way. I agree with RT 100%, he hit the nail on the head!
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Sandybar
Chromer
Posts: 19
From:Yamhill Oregon
Registered: Jul 2000
posted 08-27-2000 07:22 PM
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RT Racism or not? No I don't think so, Indians have the right to fish how they like within the treaty set by law. However if we abuse our rights we loose our privileges, such as a D.U.I and our rights to drive are waived. If the Indians are above the law set by the treaties then they should loose there privileges.
What we need to do as fisherman, is to determine if they are indeed within the law.
I couldn't tell you if they are within the law or not, I don't understand it. But as sportmen's we need to find out.

RT I have a good friend whom I fish with that is an indian and yes he fishes with a fishing pole! Onced asked him why he did not fish with his tribe, and his reply was my tribe does not fish within the treaty and I'm embarassed to be a part of my people.
I could go on but I might sound like a racist which is what were trying not to do.

Yes I'm mad as heck about the Hoods Canal incident, and also what seems to be alot of salmon that are netted on the Columbia. Lets see if they within the law set by the treaties . Then we can act responsibly as sportsmans to the cause.


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Sandybar

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dawhunt
Chromer
Posts: 104
From:Washougal,WA. USA
Registered: Apr 2000
posted 08-27-2000 08:29 PM
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HI RT,I don't believe that,I'm a racist,I'm
just tired of hearing about there treaty rights,then they go out and do what they did at Hoods Canal,I've got pictures of that slaughter of thousands of salmon(bucks)all they wanted were the hens for eggs to sell to the japanese.I sent the pictures to fishing & hunting news they puplished them along with others that people sent in,I then had a lawyer send me a letter asking for copies to use in court in olympia,so I sent
him some copies.They did this JUST BECAUSE THEY COULD,and knew there was nothing that would be done to them for it.THEN I've got an aunt and uncle ( by marriage) that live in morton wa.,that used to have elk in there yard on a daily basis,that is untill the indians slaughtered them too,they told me they would shoot them and if they didn't die near the road they would leave them there to rot JUST BECAUSE THEY COULD !!! and dared us to do something about it cus they got treaty rights !!!.Well when those treatys were signed they didn't have high powered rifles and they didn't have snowmobiles and they didn't have gillnets so maybe they should be forced to hunt and fish the old way !!!
Now I'm not blameing all the indians for what a few bad apples do but why don't they prosacute(spelling again)them,themselves,but the indian cops see no evil and hear no evil.
I have no use for Sen Gordon,but I think he had the right idea to take away the treatys and make them citizens of the USA,then they have to live by our rules and regulations just like we do.We have bad apples in our race too,the differance is when there caught they PAY for it.How much longer are we going to be forced to pay for something that happened 100 yrs ago.If our government had any b--'s they would have said OK,you want gambleing halls to provide income for your people then you give up your fishing rights and live by our laws on hunting and fishing.Seeing as how they only fish to feed themselves right,with all the money there rakeing in with the gambleing there makeing a good enough liveing to support the tribe and don't need those fishing and hunting rights anymore.Just hunt when we do by law !!!,Now there going to have there own business makeing tax free smokes,WHENDOES IT END,If this makes me a rasict,then I guess I am.

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Bob Dawson

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RT
The only Reel Truth Moderator
Posts: 723
From:Cedar Mill , OR
Registered: Apr 2000
posted 08-27-2000 10:04 PM
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Thanks for the supportive posts here. And Bob, when you pointed out the truth that all races of people have both good people and then some "bad apples", with that genuine attitude I don't see it as racist when you are plaintive about some of the bad apple activities of some Indians; hoping to expose wrongs and have them corrected. -- While on this subject I would like to address what can be considered wrongful racism against me and many other caucasion people. That is when some members of minorities include me within group blame against "white" people for the wrongs against and plights of miniorities; such as Indians, Blacks, and Hispanics. It's becoming very annoying to hear Indian, and some non-Indian, people use phrases such as "we" stole Indian land and "we" killed off most of the Columbia fish runs by building dams. "I" am not part of "we" just because me and my ancestor's are of Euro caucasion descent! My ancestor's did not come to America (from Norway and Sweden) until the very late 1800's. So they came AFTER the Indian battles and treaties were over. My ancestors did not participate in the building of dams in the Northwest or anywhere else. They lived and raised my father and mother in a couple of small Montana ranching towns. They did not use electricity until well into the 1900's, after some northwest Indians had already begun to use it in some of their villages. My point is that many of us "whites" had nothing to do with any of the 2 major Indian issues! Yet we are racially discriminated against and BLAMED wrongly for things that were done by other's ancestors that are long gone now. Yet we pay an unfair price for it!! And the ones whose ancestors did participate in wrongful, but normal, history should not be held unfairly responsible for the actions that occured before they even existed. My questions to Indians, and their leaders, is why can't we all live together in the NOW under current national conditions; while still being afforded enough opportunity to practice some cultural customs in a manner that doesn't cause such major upset of the rest of us?- RT

I'm sure that there should be more people heard on this profound subject, from both sides of the issue! - Steve

I agree with all the fine dialogue about this subject.When ever you give a certain group of people special priveledges they will abuse them.This is a matter of history in any civilization.The Indians should have been given very specific and fair access to "some" fish for religeous and/or pesonal subsistance.Not for resale of any or all of the fish or it's parts.The million-dollar question is what to do about it.Good Info guys,lester

I agree Lester, to the fine dialog, and posts preceding ours. but not long until the hoodsport chums come in, and the wasteful slaughter, and egg taking starts all over again. not to mention the rest of the rivers that are netted now for the eggs alone, and the meat left to rot on the bank. there was none of this when I was a kid, they atleast took the carcasses.

What wee need are lots of pictures and video catching them in the act of wasting the fish for their eggs. Then send them to the news people, news paper and magazines people and bee persistent do what ever we can to get exposures on the problem. We need to tarnish their “feel sorry for me” image. The internet is a monster tool lets use it.

well rt, i finally got someone to say something like i posted many months back. After i got started on this bb i made an a#* of myself, i relized that bashing anyone was wrong, so i stated that why are we traating the native american indians as a souveriegn people when we have to support all their needs, ie:
Welfare, fishing for now native U.S. citizen paid for, not only Washington State paid for hatchey fish, Cigarette's firework's?
If they are a nation onto themselves, then they need to establish their own welfare system and not relay on the one i and everyother american has to support.
Now this is a little heavy handed, and i know will never fly in the face of reality, but if this was put in front of the independent nations as an option of either [Bleeeeep!] or get off the nets and start supporting thier people in a manner not to leave them in moral or physical danger's.
Either except the world as it is today and join with the rest of us American's as a diverse mixed culture of people whom reserve the right to celibrate as our ancester's, but not to a point where we infringe on other's rights for similar needs.
No, iam not a racist, i do not condemn the native's for fishing, just for over use of something just because. The native's slaughter elk just inside Mt. St Helen's viewing area a couple of years ago just to get the head's, no fur, no meat nothing else. Left them there to be seen by anyone viewing the mountain from then the new observation area. This is not what the treaties said or meant. This is just shear excess, for celemonial purpose's, BULL [Bleeeeep!]!!!

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elmtree (woody)

RT we first met at the locks to try to get in on the springers. I know how hard it is to get folks together for the cause. I have no bad feelings against the Indians. I would only hope that people would be able to see the truth as it is now. We all need to work together. If it done right we can all enjoy the fishing. I was raised over seas the race thing is something I grew up with. I do not think this is a race thing. We all just what things to be =. Let me know how I can help out .
Keep the Rivers Clean!!!

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dank

Everyone,
I have an idea! Now this is not a solution to the problem in any means but hear me out. I have never seen what you guys have as far as taking fish for the eggs, but I read an article in STS not too long ago that focused in on carcasses in the rivers. I also broodstock a few local rivers and we deposit the carcasses back into the rivers for the smolts to feed on. Yeah we could sell them to the cat food industry but we don't. I guess what I am saying is, why not take the fish carcasses left by the indians and photograph or video tape everything so in case some jerk of a warden stops you with 100+ fish in your old chevy you have some proof of what is going on. Then take these fish and deposit them in your local stream or river, god knows we don't have enough carcasses per mile, so why not help out while still making a point? Also take all of the video footage and photos and get news crews and who ever else down there to see this kind of garbage. Trust me they will get tired of all of the publicity and either clean up their ways or get the heck out! I have been raised to go about things somewhat nicely, so I guess being a jerk yourself is not really the greatest answer but sometimes the only way to fight fire is with fire. Just my .02

Thanks,
Andy Matthews

Good take and great idea Andy!

I've seen the negitive posts here and tossed a few in myself. I'll stick to my guns and say bull crap. I don't like the idea that traditional ways aren't used. These gill nets are going to kill our "indian & sport fishermens" native stock someday. The indians are NOT the only KILLERS. Declining buffer zones One bad bad killer. Clear cutting adds its body count too surface run-off makes a muddy river bed. Dams cut the orginal flow and cause obstructions, it doesn't matter if there are latters if the native stock is dead from decades of obstruction. I could go on but I don't want to beat the dead horse. Someone said "WE NEED TO CLEAN OUR OWN BACK YARDS FIRST" wise man! We as the civilized people as the settlers said have done more damage than our native friends. Both parties need to pull together and create a plan before its too late. The goverment isn't going to do anything. Any case we are the working body that makes this nation run, they just reep the benifits of our labor anyhow. J.C.B

[This message has been edited by J.C.B (edited 08-29-2000).]

I like your thoughts Andy!!


I would like to see the Indians doing a better job of policing themselves. All this bad PR can’t be good for them. I hope they see that and take a stand of their own. I’m sure, like everything else, it’s a few bad apples that really spoil the batch..


Peace out…..

The non response here from any Native Americans seems to speak volumes. What do they have to say about these types of situations? Do they care to propose any solution thoughts? - RT

RT, what is your BB address?

RT, Sorry about the lack of a quick response. I was trying to confirm the "illegal" tribal activity in Hoodsport. From Jim Bain's post it seems that it was a planned, legal tribal fishery. Problem was no communication to sporties. Is that the tribal cops job? I think WDFW. I had also received a different report then what was described as far as numbers of fish caught.

I don't feel the reports/responses to improper Indian activity are racist unless the Indian activities are NOT improper. Then to report them as improper could be considered racist.
Looks to me like the Hoodsport fishery was a legal tribal fishery. I think the Columbia River fishery was also legal but I don't know very much about it as far as the politics go.

I also don't mind being called an Indian. Does not matter to me personally. I can do without the adjectives in front of the word however. Since I've been registered on Bob's board, I've read posts with terms such as stupid Indians, slimy Indians, punch your squaw card, and featherheads. There is definite racism in those posts. Having said that, I also have met many great people off this board and read posts from even more that I have enjoyed.

I've already proposed simple my 3-part plan to improve the situation we are in on another post, but will do again here.

1-Accurate info to anyone concerned
2- More enforcement that gets the job done
3- Continue to improve and test the fisheries science.

If a tribal cop has no authority off the reservation, then he is nothing but a thug when he threatens people. I hope the next time this happens real cops are called to report a thug with a gun is making threats.


Peace

Thanks for your reply Potter. I agree with your 3 part plan. I would add a 4th: a forum for Indian fishermen and non-Indian fishermen to better get to know each other's cultures and hopefully to come together on common proper fish and fishing GOALS. Can you get some of the Indian fishermen, knowledgable of all the issues as yourself, to become involved here on this BB and ours? (We are discussing the same issues on ours too. - For the above request of our net address, access www.ifish.net , then access the Bulletin Board). As for your plan for better and more reliable information I will say this; it will be challenging but is possible and important! A good example just occured. It is very possible that all of what Timberman reported at Hood's Canal occured. However, when Jim Bain pushed him for info clarification he backstepped a bit by saying that some of his info was second hand. More and better trained enforcement personel afield would help a lot with that. - As for the racist adjectives let me say that the offenders usually are unwittingly describing themselves. Empty words from closed intolerant minds. - If we do get good discussions going between Indian and non-Indian fishers on the 2 net BB's, I'm sure that both Bob and myself won't tolerate racist or undue inflamatory posts. They can be deleted, and if necessary can be banned for a cool off period. Thanks again Letty. I'm looking forward to more of your thoughts. (If I don't reply right away, I'll be up fishing in NW B.C. starting this Sunday for about a week or so). - RT

[This message has been edited by Reel Truth (edited 08-31-2000).]