Having the rec fishery go to C&R might not have saved any fish at all. First, the C&R fishery would/should have been structured to encounter enough fish to cover the share. So, that number dies. IF the modeled kill was lower the Tribes could/would claim foregone opportunity and those fish would die.

Going to C&R would have sent the message that conservation was the most important factor. I agree with Doc that Forks made a decision, in the face of good science, that killing those fish was the most important factor. They get to live with that decision.

But, how many of the folks who made that decision are still in office in Forks? How many have to deal with the fallout?

Except the 10% figure for C&R mortality isn't anywhere close to 10%.

Therefore, the X hundred fish the C&R guys "killed" didn't really die - but were counted as if they did. That means fish on gravel.

I'm pretty sure the X hundred fish that got whacked in their heads DID actually die. That means fish in human turds.

You do the math.

I feel bad about any negative impacts Forks has to endure going forward - but they did kinda lean into the punch.

C&R is not 100% survival. Some die. Regardless of the % used, the tribal half died and some fraction of the rec half died. If survival was better than 90% then some of the fish thought to be dead did make it to the redds. And, if the Tribes figured out the number was lower they would go after the live fish.

Finally, the part we don't know about steelhead but do know about Atlantic Salmon is that released females produce fewer smolts than fish not C&R'd. If the is true for steelies, the a C&R fishery requires a higher EG to reduce the same number of smolts as a kill fishery.

Note that BC went to C&R, without many of the net fisheries, and steelhead did not respond.

I feel for the folks affected by situations like this, the same exact thing happened in Aberdeen with logging. People waited until the very last mill closed and then acted surprised. With logging, the writing had been on the wall for years, and some of them did nothing to prepare, they just waited until it was done and then they were in a bad spot. Similar situation.

How would the tribes "figure out" that the state and they assumed 10 of 100 caught and released died, when in reality only 2 died? You're just being ridiculous now.

Smolt mortality of a hen caught and killed is 100%. Is smolt mortality of a hen caught and released a couple times less than 100%?

Is there some reason you're trying to peddle the idea that there isn't any difference between C&R fisheries and C&K fisheries?

Brood stock fish obviously experienced a lot more handling stress, but here's the data from one of the district bio's.

Mortality data from the now defunct Snider Creek program shows 11.4% loss of males and 31.7% loss of females. (Michael Gross, WDFW - 2012)

Actions and words have consequences, some are short term, some are long term. The Forks Mayor sealed her town's fate.

I would imagine the handling process of a broodstock fish is alot more extensive than a rec cnr fish, considering the 31% mortality vs 11%. A broodstock fish is caught by hook and line, put in a tube, transported to a holding facility, and held captive until ripe enough to remove eggs? Quit the process if I am correct. The numbers Eyefish posted does raise some concern on female reproduction from the rec cnr side. Rec cnr mortality may be half of the Snider Creek mortality, 15% females and 5% male? Interesting......

A dead fish is dead, regardless of how it dies. As to the question on smolt numbers, they counted fewer smolts produced under C&R on Atlantics. Plus, the point that in BC C&R did not seem to work. There are three options. C&R, C&K, and closed.

C&R obviously works on resident trout. Where the track record is weak is on the recovery of depressed steelhead.

Duh me, I must have missed something.....was there a "news event" or a new change in the OP fishing rules, that got "lostboy" to write the opening post?????

I haven't fished any of the rivers North of the Humptulips since 1987....reason I remember that year....bought, 6/30/87, a new Chevrolet 3/4 ton, 4 x4, that I used to pull drift boat to Allen Bar....made the floats G & L and Nolan Creek. We caught fish.....never saw any nets in those areas, at that time.

Did trailer to Allen Bar in mid 90's......nets were in the river at Allen Bar at that time......I've not been back to that area....

A few flashbacks of where we were in this discussion about wild steelhead release (WSR) 15 yrs ago...

Just how BAD is it?
http://www.piscatorialpursuits.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/189397/1.html

The DEBATE begins:
http://www.piscatorialpursuits.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/222359/2.html

Escapement goals and WSR:
http://www.piscatorialpursuits.com/forum...html#Post226642

The Call to Arms:
http://www.piscatorialpursuits.com/forum...html#Post228079

The DECISION and ensuing BACKLASH:
http://www.piscatorialpursuits.com/forum...html#Post231323

The plea to STAY THE COURSE:
http://www.piscatorialpursuits.com/forum...html#Post253249
http://www.piscatorialpursuits.com/forum...html#Post250473

The REVERSAL:
http://www.chronline.com/news/wild-steel...dfeeda8e75.html

Doc:

I remember all the press at that time................but was there something recent that set lostboy off. A meeting in Forks????? A new article in the Forks paper?????

or was it just that lostboy wanted to get something "off his chest"????

I have not heard anything in the local news, He probably came out here and saw the pressure that's being put on the rivers out here and [Bleeeeep!] himself.

paguy

Thanks...

Having broodstocked salmon and tracked steelies I can say this with certainty, females can be a problem. It is about when, where, and how you catch them. It is a simple problem to figure out and is this. Females pour everything they have into egg development and as Harry taught me they do not rebound well from capture. Energy level is low and many just can not get themselves back to where they were naturally. It is best to get them above holding and staging areas as they are pretty resilient by then and hook and line is not a safe capture method if you do not avoid these two things. One can reduce holding mortality but it is always about stress and the solution is mostly going to be site specific. Most state facilities are designed for making the process manageable for the workers which usually 100% in conflict with the needs of the fish.

Mortality is not the "only" problem. C&R on gravid female sturgeon may/does cause them to not spawn at all that year. We really have no idea the effect that C&R has on the eggs and resulting to adulthood prognosis for the fry. Certainly better than simply killing them but there is much we need to know.

My bad on mortality. For me mortality is not just dead fish but eggs. The fish can live but the eggs will not be viable. In the Chehalis Chinook the first 10% of run will have about 15% of the hens ending up sour. Sour is when you pick up the hen the ovarian fluid will have a odor that is not normal and when you smell it you separate it into a separate bucket. Prior to doing that we ended up with trays ( incubator ) with a huge % of blank eggs. So we we learned to simply discard those fish or separate them and identify them so we could kinda track it. Thing is anything that adds stress or physically impacts the body of the female will be detrimental to the eggs that she will produce. Fact is everything that the female experiences after leaving the ocean will effect the viability of spawning. No pluses only minuses from any encounter be it nature ( critters ) or human.

Thanks Rivrguy. WDFW needs to document, in the literature, that very thing. If it happens to a brood stocked fish, what happens to the selectively-released wild female? On the Kenai, for example?

Crickets.

Man just cannot help but fish on runs that he shouldn't.

The Kenai is the perfect example.

The tug is addicting and the fish are the ones that suffer by man's addiction.

I will use my stupid as a example. Captured by 8 in mesh ( tangle ), custom boats, net pens to place tubes in, 500 gallon tanker oxygen & aerator equipped capable of holding 9 tubes. Loaded up 9 fish into the tubes to a net pen in the middle of the river and allowed them to stay for six hours. After transport when we dumped them from the tubes into the pond all 4 hens were dead. Tried twice more same results and stopped dead. It was Harry Senn that instantly knew the question and answer and it was stress so we went back to basics. The solution? We had to wait until the water temp dropped and the fish started move and problem mostly gone. It required fine tuning but we solved it. Harry described it as egg development under stress took the fishes clock way down and simply could not get themselves back to OK. The closest he could come to something human was how shock can kill a human. C&R is a tool not a silver bullet and to think it solves the question is more than a little reach. It can be successful and a total failure just depends on circumstance.