Quite the sh!t show breaking out between MAGA populists and Trump's DOGE crony billionaires. Anti-immigration MAGA cult members ain't taking kindly to Musk and Ramiswanny's desire for HI-B visa tech workers.

The tech industry claims there aren't enough skilled tech workers to meet needs in the US. So they're demanding that Trump allow more HI-B immigrants be allowed into the US, juxtaposed against Tump and MAGA's clamor for deporting immigrants (legal and illegal). Trump cut the number of HI-B visas during his first term, but now says he likes HI-B visas and has many of such workers employed at Mar a Lago. Trump loyalist Steve Bannon leveled a barrage of MAGA hate against HI-Bs and Elon Musk in his hate meets greed video. The drama is the best entertainment of the week.

Musk is the kind of billionaire Trump would like to be, so of course he's gonna' cater to Musk. And Musk, like Putin, learned that the admiration of an insecure chump like Trump can be had by flattering him. So Musk showered Trump with a $250 million campaign donation, and now Musk owns Trump. So far Musk got useful payback in Trump mandated legislation to drop self-driving auto accident reporting and restrictions on investing in China, where Musk has his largest Tesla factory and is breaking ground on the world's largest auto battery factory. Musk will likely make back his entire investment in Trump even before inauguration day.

Trump has already backpedaled his campaign promises to lower the cost of groceries and gas. It's gonna' be interesting to watch how MAGA reacts to being stabbed in the back by their cult leader Trump.

Good roll on that bait Salmo. Should get bites. Like a fat kid on a donut

CFS=Tacoma Power Greed

I’ll bite.

I can’t speak for the cultists, but my guess is they are primarily against illegal immigration, not people coming legally with work visas. The majority of us non-cultists who voted Trump only because he was the lesser of the evils, also believe this.

Nice strawman, Salmo.


Streamer

Lots of US citizen techies were laid off various companies in the past year or so. Why doesn't Musk and Ramaswany hire them? Could it be that the Hi-Bs will work for less than the US citizens? And have no power in the workplace because if they are laid off then they have to leave the US? In which case the MAGAs are correct that immigrants are taking jobs from US citizens.

Do you have information to corroborate the claim that there is all these unemployed techies that haven’t returned to gainful employment? Or is it also possible that citizens aren’t filling the demands in the job market?

Many people in the tech field are overpaid anyway, so maybe they should be willing to work less if they risk not getting a position. Also, maybe all these tech layoffs would suggest a decreasing demand in the tech sector, so then where would the incentive be for the “Hi-Bs” to come for work? Maybe all this is not as big of an issue as you’re making it out to be.

You often talk out of your a$$ and don’t know what the fukk you are talking about. You are so deranged from your unjustified hatred for Trump that you can’t even evaluate a situation in an objective manner. You risk being inaccurate on a topic for the sake of getting a jab in on Republicans and Trump. Man TDS must really suck. I’d hate to be you.


Streamer

Really? I read news articles about tech industry layoffs. Are they wrong? I don't work in that industry and am not familiar with details, only the news I read. The thing of it is, neither you nor I appear to know with certainty what the domestic work force supply is compared to demand. Companies say they need more HI-Bs. Workers in the industry say that is because companies are trying to suppress wages. Logic suggests that HI-Bs will work for less and be more compliant. My information comes from what I read in the news. What have you got?

BTW, I have zero hatred for Trump. Hate requires energy, and I don't care to waste mine. I simply think Trump is a despicable piece of sh!t for reasons I've explained. I contend that TDS is what Trump supporters have. How else to explain defending such human excrement?

Salmo,

You didn’t answer my question. We agree that there have been layoffs, but I asked for evidence showing they haven’t returned to gainful employment. The tech sector evolves rapidly and there is constant change. Techies are also overpaid relative to other fields that require the same or more training or education. You are quick to defend and assume techies are being screwed. Logic actually suggests that companies might also be correct in needing “Hi-Bs” in order to either fill positions or minimum bring down costs in an overpaid sector.

If you admit to not know what the domestic work force is or the demand, then maybe you shouldn’t be so quick to assign blame to Republicans. Clearly you are out of touch on this topic. But keep trying. It’s very amusing to see your TDS in action.


Streamer

Streamer,

If I had the answer to your question I would have posted it. On the flip side, do you have evidence showing that the tech workers have returned to gainful employment? Also, kind of judgemental to claim that an occupational sector is over paid. It's more likely that they are paid according to supply and demand, supported by the corporate request for more HI-Bs to provide relatively cheap labor. I don't seem to be any more out of touch than you on this. Glad to amuse you. We should get together for a beer and talk and laugh.

Salmo,


I wasn’t necessarily looking for the answer, more merely shedding light on the fact that you are drawing inferences without evidence that are speculative at best. The alternatives I suggested are also highly possible, but you didn’t mention those as it would take away from your ability to throw a jab at Trump or Republicans. This demonstrates how hijacked your mind is to your ideology at the expense of logic and objectivity.

We agree that they are in fact paid according to supply and demand, but is some Bachelor’s level schmuck worth twice YOUR salary with your Master’s degree? Maybe your degree is one of those worthless ones (I don’t think at least) but if a bunch of Hi-Bs can come in and undercut wages in a sector that has high demand and low inventory, then what’s the issue? You scared of a little competition, bruh?

I like beer and entertainment!


Streamer

Talk about minds hijacked by ideology at the expense of logic and objectivity, we currently have hate meeting opportunity. Trump, Vance, and a number of Congressional Republicans have seen fit to blame "poor governace by Democrats" for the LA wildfires. Some R members of Congress want to tie aid to CA to the adoption of "Republican" policies. Gentlemen, I give you: idiots talking out their azz.

Protecting the delta smelt in the lower Sacramento River and delta area are completely and totally unrelated to the delta smelt. Water is diverted from the lower Sac via the Central CA water project that sends water to CA's Central Valley. That water is not piped to LA because it isn't and never was meant to go to LA. LA gets its water via the Owens River water project that starts in the SE Sierra Mountains (and the people of the Owens River Valley would say that LA steals the water, but that's a different topic.) Fire hydrants went dry that were located at or near the ends of water mains that were feeding "upstream" fire hoses. Since Republicans don't believe in science, they would never study enough hydrology to understand that there is a maximum limit to the amount of water that can be sent through a pipe. The pipes are sized to serve neighborhoods, including fire fighting water. But no one ever dreamed that every pipe and hydrant would be maxed out all at the same time. Only a cretin could fail to understand that the natural forces of wind and fire absolutely overwhelmed the plumbing system. There are 16,000 professional fire fighters fighting the LA wildfires. They know how to fight fires. Republican critics only know how to talk out their asses.

Blaming Democrats for the LA wildfires is simply as stupid as it would be to blame Florida and Georgia Republicans for the hurricanes that damage the SE. Maybe those states should adopt some good Democratic policies going forward. Further, tying federal aid to changes in CA policies is beyond disingenuous. CA contributes 40% more money to the federal treasury than it receives back in federal money. CA, along with WA and several of the NE states literally subsidize those money-sucking red states that don't generate enough federal revenue to cover their costs in federal funds. Red states are a drag on the federal economy and budget. CA absolutely deserves federal aid for a natural disaster crisis with no strings attached. It's no wonder that level headed Democrats and liberals know that Republicans have lost their fvcking minds! Because they have.

Do you ever copy and paste?

Lol.

This is actually laughable. It isn’t a matter of qualifying for or receiving federal aid, rather about lack of preventative measures that could be taken in order to reduce or mitigate risk. The biggest and rightful criticism from Republicans is that California’s leadership chose to prioritize other things above public safety.

For example, Gavin Newsom decided to cut spending in several different wildfire and resiliency programs over $100 million dollars, while the California budget has $17 billion in reserves. Fighting climate change also means adapting to shifts in environmental needs. With reduced water, drier seasons with windy conditions, it makes for increased likelihood to experience problems related to wildfires. The prudent decision would be to fund wildfire prevention and response.

Also, as Oregon intended to provide assistance, why were their trucks stopped in a Sacramento and required to pass emissions testing? Seriously? Does California really want the help? Their leadership has really dropped the ball here and deserving of criticism.

But hey, the important thing is that they increased funding for LGTBQ programs by millions of dollars. Good to see unnecessary social programs are the highest priority above all else. Hey, I know some people who also seem to value social issues above all else. Maybe they should move to California?


Streamer

Lol all you want. It doesn't make you appear smarter, quite the contrary. But your R oligarchs have been recorded saying exactly that CA should be required to adopt R approved policies as a condition of aid. Be honest, should the SE states have been required to adopt D-approved policies to receive hurricane relief?

CA has been developing measures to prevent and fight wildfires for years. If you think that CA leadership didn't prioritize public safety, then how about put up or shut up. Let's make the price of criticism that you tell us and everyone how and what CA leadership should have done and be doing that they didn't. I think you're going to find that CA spends more on wildfire prevention and response than any state. CA is likely the richest state, and if they choose to support LGTBQ programs in addition to public safety, that is their prerogative. Oh that's right, you're opposed to freedom of choice except for the choices you prefer.

Apparently you're a sucker for internet disinformation and misinformation. Fire trucks did not go to Sacramento to pass emissions testing. That was debunked early on; please try to keep up. Trucks from WA and OR didn't even drive through Sacramento on their way to LA.

Oh, and you no doubt heard Trump criticize CA for preventing water coming from the north - Canada even - down to LA. And the believers of misinformation are too stupid to know when Trump is talking out his azz. A large team of fact checkers could hardly keep up. The next 4 years will be comedy gold.

Occasionally, but not often. Why?

Wow, Salmo. You seem rattled.

The devil is in the details. Looks like I was incorrect that vehicles are not being emissions tested, however it does appear that according to Oregon Live that trucks are still being stopped for safety checks and inspections. If you read down at the bottom of the article it admits that vehicles are being stopped and required to be inspected. So it looks like there is a lot of truth that trucks were still being stopped and required to have checks, just not for smog or emissions. But I wouldn’t count on you to be truthful about this. Just simply clamoring about minute details of misinformation to make digs at Trump or Republicans like the shill you are. You are from here on out referred to as shillster 2.0.

Back to the discussion about aid. It’s important to make a distinction that wildfires can largely be contained/controlled with preventative measures whereas hurricanes are a bit different. Apples and oranges. This was a case of clear intention to shift from prevention to reaction in order to rely on aid money instead of preventative money. Why use state dollars (when you have a surplus of $17 billion ironically) when you can cry and play victim for federal aid dollars?


Streamer


https://www.oregonlive.com/wildfires/202...the-rumors.html

You are both wrong about this. Salmo you get misinformed by the legacy mainstream media. Streamer gets misinformed by the alternative media. I do not need any sources of information, it all gets revealed to me in visions and dreams, just like Rich G.

Fire trucks from Oregon underwent routine 15-minute safety checks in Sacramento, on I5 on their way to LA, rather than emissions tests. These checks were conducted to ensure the vehicles were mechanically sound and safe for use. No fire engines were turned away during these checks,and all necessary repairs were completed either on the same day or the following day. The safety checks helped ensure that the equipment, which does not regularly travel hundreds of miles at a time, was safe for the firefighters to use. So Streamer was wrong that they stopped in Sacramento for EMISSIONS testing and Salmo is wrong that they didn't even drive through Sacramento on their way to LA, which is absurd, since it's on I5 and also wrong that they didn't get tested at all.

Trump is of course wrong about where the river water comes from and coming down from Canada, the Klamath, the bay area, ect, however this is a small detail he is wrong about when he is right about the big picture which is that there is a lack of water in LA hydrants.

OK so my questions to you Salmo, on the big picture of the lack of water, are:

1) Why is the Santa Ynez Reservoir empty? This is the proximate reservoir to the Pacific Palisades and the reservoir’s absence likely contributed to some diminished pressure and dry hydrants in upper regions of the Palisades.

2) California Proposition 1, approved in 2014, taxed and allocated $2.7 billion for water storage projects, including new reservoirs. The initial timeframe for these projects was set by Proposition 1, which required that by January 1, 2022 all project proponents must have completed feasibility studies, released draft environmental documents for public review however, the actual construction and completion of the reservoirs have faced delays. For instance, the Willow Springs Water Bank Project is the only project in the LA area, aims to store up to 1 million acre-feet of water--it hasn't been built. As of January 2025 zero new reservoirs have been built, with critics arguing that the pace of construction is too slow, due to bureaucratic inertia, extensive planning, engineering and environmental review. So my question is why haven't any new reservoirs been built?

Basically just, why is the existing reservoir empty and why is the new reservoir that people voted for and paid taxes for not built? My answer is because democrats are terrible at governing but since you don't believe that, I'd like to hear your alternative explanation.

Streamer posted: " It’s important to make a distinction that wildfires can largely be contained/controlled with preventative measures . . ."

You're out of your mind if you believe that. If such containment or control were even close to true, the natural resource agencies would have solved the problem years ago. The fuel supply for wildfires is immense and in most cases self replenishes. The collective resources of all the natural resource agencies in the country is nowhere close to enough to effect that scale of containment. I don't know what drugs you're using, but you are not even close to being grounded in reality. Additionally you apparently don't understand what a shill is either. A shill is one who defends or promotes a product or person beyond the merit of said product or person, kinda' like you supporting Trump, whose negative attributes outnumber any positive ones (if there are any) by an order of magnitude or more.

FP,

At least you're being honest with the source of your information, unreliable as it is.

1. The Santa Ynez reservoir is empty because it's down for maintenance. Part of the cover was damaged and is scheduled for repair. So why does it need a cover, you may ask. Because it's LA drinking water with air pollution and birds crap in it and stupid people would swim in it or pollute it.

2. I don't know. I saw the architect's rendering of the proposed mega reservoir a couple years or so ago. I haven't seen anything since. It's a major project and in order to be feasible, there has to be water to fill it. I believe it was intended to store some of CA's share of Colorado River water. If you've been following that, there is presently a dispute among the 7-state Colorado River Compact because the individual state shares add up to more water than the Colorado River produces. The compact dates to a time where the period of record for water supply was weighted to more wet years than dry years. Now the reality of there being less water than originally estimated has come home to roost. The Glen Canyon reservoir is trending toward the elevation where it will no longer be possible to deliver water to the dam's turbines that produce electricity. I don't know, but it could be that the feasibility of that proposed new reservoir is in question. BTW, I think the Willow Springs project is a different one, and if so, I'm not familiar with it.

You're also wrong about Democrats being terrible at governing; rather both Republicans and Democrats are terrible at governing. It's just that Republicans are more terrible at it than Democrats. It's a lesser evil sort of thing. BTW, politicians are notoriously bad at this stuff because they don't understand economics, engineering, or how the natural world functions. For starters, and probably a lot more.

Wrong… literally about everything in your above statement. You have yourself so convinced of your own bullschit that you overlook the most basic of science that suggests the complete opposite of what you said. Have you not ever heard of controlled burns?

Controlled burns are lit for a number of reasons. By ridding a forest of dead leaves, tree limbs, and other debris, a prescribed burn can help prevent a destructive wildfire. Controlled burns have become more important as fire suppression efforts have grown over the last century. Historically, smaller fires occurred in forests at regular intervals. When these fires are suppressed, flammable materials accumulate, insect infestations increase, forests become more crowded with trees and underbrush, and invasive plant species move in. Controlled burns seek to accomplish the benefits that regular fires historically provided to an environment while also preventing the fires from burning out of control and threatening life and property.

The fuel supply for wildfires is controlled or mitigated with controlled burns. Making this a regular practice allows for new growth to occur that is less flammable. The Palisades and Eaton fires are close to developed areas and would benefit from scheduled and strategic control burns to limit impacts on a geographic area.

Agencies could have made a meaningful impact on the fires. We don’t know to what extent fully, but when a governor cuts $100 million in funding for fire protection, a large degree of culpability falls on the governor as the fires likely wouldn’t have reached this magnitude with proper funding and measures.

I provided evidence directly refuting and disqualifying your claims. It would appear that I am grounded in reality and that you are an unhinged shill who is more interested in adhering to the guidance of your TDS at the expense of science and what is true. With some hesitation, I voted for Trump in only 1 election and articulated the benefits of doing so while also highlighting his deficits. That’s a far cry from “shilling” for Trump. Nice try.




We agree that Democrats and Republicans are terrible at governing. With that said, the slightly better approach is to then have less people governing with reduced size of government. It isn’t necessarily a great solution, but it is the best solution. Republicans tend to prefer smaller size and scope of government, which makes them the lesser of the two evils.


Streamer


https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/controlled-burning/

how do you not know how controlled burns are good for keeping massive raging fires supressed?

jeezuz....

lay off the sauce...

I don't know how you can say the Democrats are better at governing. A statement like that has no basis in anything but fantasy and wishful thinking. There is just no way possible to provide anything that would substantiate that. I suppose it is possible, but then I look at what is going on and I can not even fathom it being much worse.

At present, the Democrats have controlled washington state 100% for the majority of the past 35 years, with just 2 years in that time where the republicans had control of the house and senate and a few more where the house and senate where split.

The things that the Democrats are supposed to be good at are among the areas where the problems are the worst. Western state is was decertified. The homeless crisis is out of control. Over doses and crime have skyrocketed. Poverty rates are about the exact same as over 30 years ago, indicating no improvements under the democrats -The party for the poor! This essentially mirrors the national levels, meaning the Washington State Democrats have had no effect.

The only thing the Democrats have proven success in is increasing the tax burdens.

Again, it is possible the Republicans could have done worse, but if you want to argue that, please provide some evidence. Any evidence. Is there a state where the republicans have been in control where the previous indicators show significant declines?

Does anyone find it funny that after 30 + years of Democrate control, DEI is so important at this juncture. Are the Democrats that racist or prejudiced.

Comparing what desantis and abbot do for their citizens as compared to what inslee and newscum have done, should be enough evidence. Gavin will clean up when a Chinese dictator comes to town but, wont for its own taxpayers. Almost like he doesn't value them. Weird.

Streamer,

I'm well aware of the use of controlled burns to mitigate or prevent subsequent wildfire damage. Your assumption appears to be that managers have the resources to do controlled burns every place and every time one might be prescribed. And not every place that needs mitigation is suited to the mitigation measures. Even you would likely understand that you can't necessarily do whatever you want everywhere. A rational person understands that sometimes catastrophic natural disasters happen, even with the best of planning, and incrementally more likely with incrementally less preparation. Total prevention is roughly more than 99% impossible, if you're at all familiar with probability.

If you watch state agencies and budgets - especially R controlled budgets - you'd know that none have the amount of personnel and funding necessary to carry out such massive mitigation. If Newsom is responsible for cutting $100 million from fire suppression - and I'll have to fact check it to believe it - then I bet he regrets it now. The fact is that every state has competing needs for funding, whether it's education, health services, or fire fighting. The end result is usually that no one gets all the money they claim to need. Saying today that CA should have spent more on preventative measures is the art of Monday morning quarterbacking. Everyone enjoys 20:20 hindsight. At the time the budget was being split up, neither of us can say what the highest priorities were. We aren't there; we weren't there.

Streamer & Krijack,

Through the 1990s the Rs and Ds were roughly similiar in their respective governing ineptitude. That changed as the Christian Right began to take over the Republican Party. Their uncompromising push to combine church and state and to govern citizens' bedrooms (abortion & gay rights) has made the Rs more extreme than even the worst of the Ds. Reagan's term ushered in the R's dedication to laying waste to the environment. In the 60s and 70s both parties seemed to want to clean up pollution and protect air and water quality and set aside special landscapes. That has changed. R's are continuously trying to reverse and deregulate environmental protection. You cannot honestly say with a straight face that Rs are better than Ds at protecting the environment.

Then came Trump. Past R leaders Paul Ryan, Kevin McCarthy, and Steve Scalise were caught on tape admitting they thought Trump was on Putin's payroll. Is there some point, any point, where Rs will say, "that goes too far; we're out!" Apparently not. There used to be one set of facts. Since Trump, Rs routinely pull facts out of their asses. A few Republicans have drawn a line in the sand: Liz Cheney, Mike Pence (belatedly), Bill Barr, Mitch McConnell (sorta'), Mitt Romney, and a few others declared that Trump lost in 2020, and essentially called him a huge assshole for continuing to claim he didn't. Yet Barr and McConnell turned around and endorsed him for 2024. Republicans are the masters of nominating the "you've got to be fvcking kidding me" candidates: Palin, Herschel Walker, MTG, Lauren Bobert, George Santos? Is there any nutcase who couldn't run as a Republican? And now the Trump and his transition team are picking cabinet nominees based on loyalty to Trump with little to no regard for qualifications. Does it not matter at all to you that Trump doesn't give a sh!t about loyalty to the Constitution? God help us if you think Trump loyalty equals qualification.

So yeah, Ds have their faults. Wokeism has gone too far, but prosecuting men who coerced women to have sex for jobs makes America a better place. And cancel culture has descended into stupidity, only to be adopted by Rs as well. And to Krijack's point about WA governance, I'll grant you that the Ds have been pretty classic tax and spend Democrats, often with little to show for it. Other than the money successfully being spent. Tell ya' what, nominate some Rs who want the gov't to stay out of people's bedrooms and think it's a damn good idea to protect the environment that we ALL depend on, and I'll be out there hustling the votes.

Salmo,

I went the local republican primary convention once. The party platform they adopted was essentially the exact same they lost on the previous 4 elections. The problem is, most of us do not have the time to put in the effort to fight those with extreme views. Lets be honest, if you truly believe abortion it murder then shouldn't you fight as hard as you can to end it? Those with more extreme views are always going to control the party as long as it is set up the way it is. I think some of the candidates are more flexible or realistic in their thinking but are either not given a chance or are forced into a corner early on that they then have to fight their way out of. The best example would be Reichert's stance on voting for Trump and on Abortion. If he had said early on he was against Trump or not anti-abortion, he would have been pushed out. Then, when it comes time to cater to the actual bulk of the voters, the Democrats hammer on the more extreme points.
The republicans do the same to the Democrats, just not as successfully. Unfortunately, I fear that many Democrats in power actually believe some of the more extreme views, ones that the majority of Democrats themselves would be against. Locke went against the Teachers union and was done. Ferguson has already hit back a little against the Democrat majority about tax increases. Time will see if he is actually popular enough to govern rationally.

Being honest, I think those who believe abortion is murder should not have abortions. I think they should try to persuade others to believe as they do instead of trying to control their opponents through legislation. Legislating the behavior of others to go against their own personal beliefs is guaranteed to generate ill will.

I agree that party primaries seem to be controlled by the extremists. They have that control because the moderates fail to push back. So here we are, unable to reduce the influence of the wing nuts and whack-a-doodles. Which party most closely embraces sanity? With Rs pulling facts out of their asses, lying about practically everything, and nominating nutcases, I'd say it's the Ds, their wokism, cancel culture, and over-stated trans rights notwithstanding.

The problem is, the democrats have had every chance to do something and haven't.
Two years ago, I went down to the Green river to fish. The entire road, at that time, seemed to be an endless row of homeless people camping along the river. The only reaction I saw to it at that time, was to lock up all the public bathrooms.
Perfect government reaction. Where are all these people pooping. They definitely were not leaving.

When it came time to sports gambling, the state simply gave the rights exclusively to the state. Oregon, collects about $30,000,000 a year in taxes, while gambling companies made just under $65,000,000. All the state had to do was tell the tribes they could get 100% of the market if they agreed to tax it, other wise they would open up to non-tribal entities. But instead, they just handed it away for nothing. My estimate is it is about $2000 per member.

Mostly agree. The problem is that the issue of abortion needs to be discussed at the level that most people aren’t willing (or are unable) to discuss it at. Also, everyone wants to make the issue about “women’s rights” reactively after the fact, instead of discussing it as a philosophical issue that is more about morality, responsibility, integrity and before the fact.

Nobody wants to discuss why people engage in sexual behavior (intercourse) if they cannot bear the consequences of those actions. The Bible specifically indicates sex should be between a married man and woman, and largely for the purposes of procreation. People choose to conveniently ignore this naively thinking they have all the answers and can dance their way around any type of consequence. Godless, purposeless, indulgent, reckless, irresponsible and ignorant people endorse this.

Yeah, accidents happen. People make mistakes, but instead of doubling down on additional bad choices by having an abortion, (which comes with additional complications, health risks, depression, etc.) maybe it’s an opportunity in life to adopt responsibility and be a part of something bigger than your own selfish self. This includes fathers as well. I don’t like living in a society where people are encouraged to skirt responsibility under the guise of being a “woman’s rights” issue. This isn’t good for anyone. But count on the political left to make this about “woman’s rights” and that it’s a bunch of “old conservative white men” trying to have control over women’s bodies. Guess what? Old conservative white men founded this county. Maybe they should have a say in policies that affect the bedrock of our society. Oh yeah, and also count on the left to play the the emotional arguments about rape and incest, which accounts for less that 0.5% of abortions.

You know who is actually trying to control women’s bodies? Leftists like Salmo who want women to have abortions to maximize their sexual value for other men to use and abuse. Women who get abortions have higher rates of STI’s, considerably more sexual partners, more likely to be in poverty, more likely to be raped, more likely to have untreated mental health issues, and less likely to have or be in the process of earning an education.

Maybe society should go back to abstinence sex education. While it isn’t perfect, it does offer the best solution. Clearly, sex education with access to contraceptions is not working. There are missing pieces to the solution, and nobody wants to talk about it.


Streamer

The County cleaned up Green River Road and it has stayed cleaned up.

Sure, let's discuss it ". . . as a philosophical issue that is more about morality, responsibility, integrity and before the fact."

Morality is a human construct. It is whatever a community of people decide it is. You may believe that sex outside of marriage is immoral, but the facts suggest that a majority of people either don't believe it's immoral or don't care. And that includes a large percentage, perhaps a majority even, of church going alleged Christians. Bringing God and the Bible into the conversation is just silly because many people don't believe in that God or the Bible or choose to give both low station in their lives. Personally I regard religion as irrelevant to the discussion.

The scientist in me tells me that sex is a biological imperative, not a religious one. So pragmatically speaking, let's set this morality, God, and the Bible aside since even the people who preach it don't act it, except possibly Mike Pence. And sex largely for the purpose of procreation? Who are you trying to kid? Have you been living under a rock? I don't know about you, but most men and women engage in sex for sport. And I don't mean that in a negative way. Among humans sex is part of an intimate emotional connection. It definitely serves a purpose other than procreation; it is indulgent, but it's only reckless, irresponsible, and ignorant when practiced outside that emotional connection.

Abstinence is the best solution only if you deny that humans are sexual beings. Sex education is a good idea because stupid puritans don't inform their kids and then act surprised or get mad when their kid either gets pregnant of gets someone else pregnant. Sex ed makes for fewer STDs and unwanted pregancies, but it doesn't prevent sex. Nothing does. Deliberately ignorant puritans refuse to get it. People have sex, always have, always will. Accept the reality and decide how to live in that reality instead of dwelling in denialism.

Having an abortion may be doubling down on a bad choice in your case, but others see it as a logical course of action to an unwanted or dangerous pregnancy. I know my place in this arrangement, and it's not to judge another's personal decision in such a personal matter. Apparently you have the right to dictate how others, particularly women, should behave. News flash: you don't!

I too like a society where people take individual responsibility. I see the decision to have an abortion as a person exercising just that - personal responsibility.

I'll grant you that white men founded this country. Most weren't old. And the conservatives were the Tories, many of whom moved to Canada rather than be part of a revolution. Rebelling against the King is the direct opposite of conservative. (Conservative: resists change; slow to change.) And the Founders should have, and did have a say in the bedrock policies of the country. They also recognized the inevitability of change, and allowed for that. So that was then, and this is now. Women have been demanding equal rights at law for over a hundred years. Men, being the stingy bastards that they are, along with a lot of duped women, have resisted that change.

And just to be clear, it's stupidly offense to accuse me of wanting to control women's bodies to maximize their sexual value for me and other men to abuse. Talk about an unfounded cheap shot. Welcome to being a modern Republican for whom there is no bar too low that you won't cross it.

Sure let’s discuss.

The Bible and God are relevant to the discussion as it relates to being a framework for having constraint on human behaviors. I believe at one point Fish Prince discussed man’s innate urges to eat, fvck, and kill. The most selfish of people deny this aspect within humans. The best and most pure method of constraint on man’s urges is laid out in the Bible. Whatever worldly method you employ (if any at all) will ultimately fall short.

Sex is largely for the purposes of procreation but also for enjoyment. Biblical parameters are set around this by saying it should be between a married couple to offer protections for potential offspring and emotional protection by maintaining fidelity and bypassing the complexities of emotions that come with having multiple partners, affairs, etc. As stated previously, women (and most men) who have/had multiple partners are also more likely to suffer from mental health issues. Biblical framework around sexuality offers a variety of protections. I agree with your statement about sex for enjoyment (which is also sometimes okay) but as also being indulgent and often times reckless, but I take it further than just outside of emotional human connection and place it within marriage that offers more layers of stability and protection. Do you walk around and fvck every woman you have an emotional connection with? Most women (and men) in a committed relationship would not be okay with this. If by any chance you think polyamory or open relationships can work, ask Toff how that’s working for him.

Also, I wouldn’t assume that terminating a pregnancy is the responsible route. In most cases, it’s a denied opportunity for adopting responsibility which is what’s needed in those situations. Adopting responsibility is what makes people grow and also brings meaning and purpose to their lives to make better and more informed choices. Want to have sex? Adopt responsibility and settle down instead of opting for the low and convenient parameters by cheap protections and worldly societal standards.

However, coupled with this idea is man’s obligation to also help and serve others who are in need. There are resources out there for pregnant women, and I also encourage helping others in the ways that we can with the talents and gifts we are blessed with. I can take some pride in knowing that I back up my beliefs with actions consistent to my idea. I encourage others to do the same.

As far as the cheap shot, it’s the dark side. You probably don’t believe the straw man I threw your way, but lots of (mostly leftist) men do and men who encourage sexual promiscuity are terrible people. The comment is more directed at your team encouraging the idea than you personally, but maybe the show fits.


Streamer

What Green River Road are we referring to ?

Surely not this Green Valley Road !

I was talking about Green River Rd. in Kent, not the Green Valley Rd. in Auburn.

"As far as the cheap shot, it’s the dark side. You probably don’t believe the straw man I threw your way, but lots of (mostly leftist) men do and men who encourage sexual promiscuity are terrible people. The comment is more directed at your team encouraging the idea than you personally, but maybe the show fits."

My team? Hah! Mostly leftists like prez Trump and his numerous affairs and Trump's defense nominee Hesgeth who had a child with a woman who wasn't his wife. Yeah, that's ripe, suggesting that left wingers are the promiscuous ones. Oh, and right wing buddy Elon, 12 kids with 4 women. A bunch of Bible thumpers you've got there.

Again, the Bible is relevant only to those who adopt and accept the Bible. With around 40% of Americans being unchurched, there are a lot of people to whom the Bible means little or nothing. So how's the Bible relevant to them? Then you have religions other than Christian that you conveniently overlook. The upshot is that by their behavior, most Americans don't give a sh!t about God or the Bible making it inapplicable to the abortion issue for most people. Just as you have no right to cram your religion down the throats of other people, the same goes for your view on abortion. It really is that simple. Extreme Christians are just as bad for society as are the Jihadist Muslims. They're all terrorists who just have to control everyone else.

So I prefer the separation of church and state. And keeping the state out of people's bedrooms. I'm a live and let live kind of guy. I won't tell you what you should do, and I sure as hell ain't gonna' put up with you trying to tell me how to live. Can't we agree on that?

Congrats. You found one of the reasons I am not a Trump cultists. As I have stated before, I think his past personal conduct leaves a lot to be desired and I don’t approve of the way he has behaved in his personal life. I’m also not a huge fan of Hegseth for that and other reasons. You found the exceptions. Good for you. But but but Streamer is still a cultist!

Conveniently ignoring the fact that Democrats also have similar conduct problems. Joe Biden’s extensive history of sexually assaulting women has been swept under the rug. Nice work cherry picking. Sexual promiscuity and deviance is more widely endorsed and accepted by the political left. It’s just a fact bruh.

The Bible provides the best template for how to live one’s life. The Tripitaka, the Tanakh, and the Quran offer similar benefits as a template with life principles to follow. I think any religion is better than no religion, and the Bible offers the best benefit. Modern culture and society (progressives) provide worldly templates to follow which all fall short compared to any type of guidance offered by religion. Follow worldly guidance and fall victim to the world with little meaning, purpose or fulfillment.

I also believe in separation of church and state… to an extent. This county was founded on Judo-Christian values that are intricately woven into the fabric of society. Laws governing this country ought be mindful of this as it incorporates elements of morality that are derived from these values. Ignore them to your own demise. I’m not going to tell you what to do but don’t try to convince me there are better ways to live one’s life being guided by worldly desires.


Streamer

Yeah, you're a cultist. You gave your vote to a known felon who just pardoned 1,400 felons. Well, maybe some of those were just convicted of misdemeanors. Way to show your support for the Capitol police department and the rule of law. We are somewhat officially now a lawless nation. Anything goes! Speaking of the law, Trump also singularly is trying to re-write the 14th Amendment to do away with birthright citizenship. Azzhole doesn't care that presidents and Congress cannot change the Constitution; only a new Amendment can do that. Unless of course, Trump's corrupt SCOTUS decides he can.

Some Democrats are also in the sexual misconduct column, but when a D senator made a comment to or about a woman on a plane (I forget which) the Ds in the Senate forced him to resign. Unlike the Rs, who re-elect an adjudicated rapist (sexual assault under NY law) to a 2nd term as prez. BTW, another forum I visit has a lengthy thread titled, "Sexual predators R Us." Roughly 90% of the entries on its many pages are Rs and Christian conservatives. I could go do an exact count if you need the exact true fact bruh. The Rs and conservatives may not endorse it, but they sure as hell do get arrested a lot more for it. And nice whataboutism referring to Biden's many sexual assaults that I've never heard about. Must have been swept far under the rug, or else, oh yeah, sniffing a woman's hair is right up there with rape and assault - NOT!

Another BTW, I'm not anti-religion. I'm just going half-way Bill Maher for the sake of this discussion. As you point out Judaeo-Christian morality and ethics attributes are not unique to them. Nor were they invented by them. Many of those values evolved with the development of civilization and have continued to evolve ever since. It's only a problem when believers of a particular religious regime connive to use the force of civil law to coerce others who don't align with those beliefs to follow them anyway, like restricting abortion access - to return to the root of this discussion. If others want to follow and live lives devoid of meaning, purpose, or fulfillment, let them! It's no skin off your nose. Why do you insist on being such a control freak?

The laws governing this country ought to be mindful that not everyone practices the same religion or any religion. If you're a conservative, the laws of this country ought to stay out of the lives of its citizens to the extent practicable. Staying out of their bedrooms would be a good place to start. Laws are necessary to form structure for society (driving on the right side of the road, yield right of way, and on down the line, etc.). If the law that governs least, governs best, then laws codifying behavior of people ought to focus on the interactions between people (murder, assault, robbery, etc.) and not on individuals minding their own business (like getting abortions if they want them).

Get ready for the ride. I do hope the intended and unintended consequences of Trump 2.0 rains holy hell on the people who voted for him. Unfortunately those of us who didn't vote for him will be affected as well.

The cultists elected our Felon in Chief, who reportedly said, "Fvck it, release them all." Trump signed an order pardoning or commuting the sentences of all the J6 rioters, regardless whether their convictions were minor, as in criminal tresspass or disorderly conduct, to obstructing an official government function, and even seditious conspiracy. All those plus those still awaiting trial for their roles in the Capitol riot 4 years ago. All to demonstrate that no crime is too great if it is performed in loyalty to Trump. Turns out it wasn't Mexico that released criminals to prey on innocent Americans; it was Trump! Congratulations cultists, you earned this stain on America.

Wowzer , this has to be the shrit- smelliest bit of bait trolling yet this year ! Hard to imagine it comes from someone that helped save fly fishing on the Skagit to protect the mighty wild Steelhead, sorta.

Just terrible what TDS can doo .

Salmo,, they were hostage's/political prisoners entrapped and rail road'd by a corrupt justice system and FBI.. The whole thing was a set up and a projection by the Deep State to deflect their actions back onto their enemy...

The insurrection happened when a massive fraud scheme was successfully deployed to steal the 2020 election and the government was captured via a fraudulent and corrupt certification,, not just at the House of representatives in DC but in each State Capitol where these knowingly fraudulent elections were certified,, at the office of each local county auditor where these local fraudulent elections were certified...

There was a blockade erected by the entire justice system,,, local sheriffs refused to investigate valid claims of election fraud in 2020... Election Fraud happens at the local level,,, it is the jurisdiction of the local sheriff to investigate and ensure free and fair elections... If your elections are stolen you have no freedom or liberty,, its a subversion of the US Constitution and a theft of individual/collective power of the people...

I think we need to hear from the Trumpster directly on this

Shillster 2.0,

Why do you wish ill will on others? As much as I despise your short-sighted and cult-like adherence to the blue team, I don’t even wish holy hell to be cast upon the likes of you. Why are you so full of hate?

Wanting to kill life in the womb is unnatural and sick. Sick people get abortions (not just physically sick but mentally sick). I’m not a control freak as you claim. I’m just tired of people like you who enable irresponsibility to the point of pure recklessness. I don’t want a society with low birth rates killing babies simply out of convenience while enabling irresponsible actions. All life is valuable and the ultimate good is making something great out of a less than ideal situation. It’s the American way. Do what you want in your Godless, insignificant and meaningless life. I don’t care. Just don’t kill babies to avoid consequences or avoid adopting responsibility, especially after 20 weeks that have been legally defined as having viability and that physically feel pain.

Explain your theory and rationale for morality, values, ethics being solely derived from the “development of civilization” with no influence from religions. I’ll be waiting. Lol.

Again… you are wrong about J6. (About most things usually and I’m not surprised.) The majority aren’t technically felons. You are either an idiot or conveniently using hyperbolic language to build your weak point. I personally don’t agree with the pardons for people who assaulted police or engaged in property destruction, but that represented a fraction of those who faced charges. Literally hours worth of footage showing people being allowed to enter the Capitol.

As much as you hate “whataboutisms” this is still less significant than the pardons issued by Joe Biden. Biden broke the record by thousands including his own families members, Fauci, and the J6 panel. He’s far more of a scum bag than Trump. Anyone who believes otherwise is also probably a scumbag. Probably including you.


Streamer

Who'da' thunk it; we don't seem to be getting any closer to agreement. Ordinarily I don't wish ill will on anyone. Part of me being a live and let live sort of guy. But I'm willing to make exceptions for Trump voters. BTW, I don't hate anyone or anything other than brussels sprouts. As I've posted before, hate takes energy, and I won't waste mine. Hate is for the racists and homophobes in Camp Trump.

I'm done arguing about abortion. We aren't getting any where.

How can I be wrong about J6? The facts are self evident. Either the rioters were or were not convicted of their various participations in assailing the Capitol. Given the self evident fact that they indeed were convicted, they are felons if their crime was a felony. Some were convicted or plead guilty to misdemeanors, so they aren't felons, but they're still criminals. That's just the way it is.

A lot of the Biden pardons wouldn't even be thought about, let alone made necessary because Trump has threatened everyone he perceives as having wronged him. Yeah, cuz he never did anything wrong. Pure as the driven snow, right? Get a grip. As for the majority of Biden's pardons, they were for minor drug convictions that under today's laws would result in far less in the way of sentences or punishment. Guess I can live with that. Biden is no angel, but no one on planet earth is more scumbag than Trump. That's one thing he truly is the king of.

This is fun. I see today that Trumps revocation of birthright citizenship was shut down with a TRO. Now really, does the plain English meaning of the 14th Amendment mean what it actually says? Or is Trump's opinion somehow superior and right and the Constitution is wrong? The Felon in Chief is going to be a soft target for endless slams and criticisms.

Have you tried vinegar on fresh steamed Brussels sprouts?

Now were talkin... A Lil balsamic on a tray of Brussels. Im eating them all.

See. Your TDS causes you to go against your general beliefs.



You aren’t getting anywhere. You’ve failed to provide any type of convincing argument on the topic. At all. Both myself and FP have laid out valid and convincing arguments in this and other threads. You can’t even answer my question about how civilizations develop things like morality, ethics, etc. without influence from religions. You’re basic bro.



Closer but still not there. Looks like you are walking back your response now. The majority aren’t felons or criminals. This answer is only slightly more accurate than your previous one. You have more work to do.



So Biden’s family members (excluding Hunter), Fauci, Mark Milley, J6 panel are all druggies too? We know Hunter is a druggie of course, but also had gun charges. Tell me more about how Biden isn’t an angel. I’d like to hear more. If Trump is the MAGA King Scumbag of planet earth, then what does that make Hitler, Mussolini, Mao, and the thousands of serial murders, child molesters and rapists? Not to mention Democrats like Pelosi’s, Gavin Newscum, Jay Inslee, Bob Ferguson, Bill Gates, etc. and yourself?



The privilege of United States citizenship is a priceless and profound gift. The Fourteenth Amendment states: “All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.” That provision rightly repudiated the Supreme Court of the United States’s shameful decision in Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. (19 How.) 393 (1857), which misinterpreted the Constitution as permanently excluding people of African descent from eligibility for United States citizenship solely based on their race.

But the Fourteenth Amendment has never been interpreted to extend citizenship universally to everyone born within the United States. The Fourteenth Amendment has always excluded from birthright citizenship persons who were born in the United States but not “subject to the jurisdiction thereof.” Consistent with this understanding, the Congress has further specified through legislation that “a person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof” is a national and citizen of the United States at birth, 8 U.S.C. 1401, generally mirroring the Fourteenth Amendment’s text.

Among the categories of individuals born in the United States and not subject to the jurisdiction thereof, the privilege of United States citizenship does not automatically extend to persons born in the United States: (1) when that person’s mother was unlawfully present in the United States and the father was not a United States citizen or lawful permanent resident at the time of said person’s birth, or (2) when that person’s mother’s presence in the United States at the time of said person’s birth was lawful but temporary (such as, but not limited to, visiting the United States under the auspices of the Visa Waiver Program or visiting on a student, work, or tourist visa) and the father was not a United States citizen or lawful permanent resident at the time of said person’s birth.

So basically, Salmo, you are wrong again and your unjustified TDS clouds your ability to think critically. Just give it up bro. I’m not saying you have to like the guy (I particularly don’t) but you shouldn’t let leftists and MSM hatred steal your mind and insert the clear hatred for him. Can’t you even have an original thought bro?

Streamer

the constitution wasnt written for immigranst coming from drug infested countries, to infest this country with drugs and criminals... are they all criminals? nope, not at all... but the criminals are using it to their benefit...


blame them for the rukus, not people trying to protect this nation and its citizens...

the 14th amendment was written to grant former slaves and their children, citizenship...

also, Biden pardoned a cop killer even Obama wouldnt pardon...

Funny Salmo, but you perfectly outlined liberal thinking ......" If you're a conservative, the laws of this country ought to stay out of the lives of its citizens to the extent practicable".....

Liberals have no problem, though, with stepping into the lives of everyone.

From outlawing plastic bags, straws, taxing sugar drinks at almost 100%, seatbelt laws, and how chickens are raised to a million other intrusions into our ever day life, the liberals want to control everything - except when it comes to protecting kids from self mutilation or being killed in the womb.

Too bad the states richest county can’t keep the entire Green River Valley Road clean from South Park to Flaming Geyser. Garbage, shrit piles, needles, drugy dumps at nearly all wide spots, turn offs /WDFW land, boat put in & take outs. As it’s all in King’s county, you’d think they could work all the road. Maybe it’s the city of Kent that keeps it clean, where as Auburn, not so much ? Only peeps trying to mitigate all the crap&dumping outside of the city limits are the locals ...

“Keep Washington Green “ they like to say.

Streamer, you know damn well that your anti-abortion arguments are convincing only to like minded individuals as yourself. 65 - 80% of the country disagrees with you (the variation depending on when surveys were taken).

Please read more closely; I said "the majority of the pardons . . ."

Per J6, if you're convicted or plead out, you're a criminal. No, not all are felons, but many are.

As for the applicability of the 14th A, I guess we'll let the courts sort it out. I've not seen a ruling that one or both parents must be in the country legally, but that would be logical.

I over-reacted on scumbag level. Putin and Un are worse than Trump - so far. So I'll retract and say that Trump is only the most despicable POS in the U.S.

Krijack, in a perfect world we wouldn't have any laws interceding with anyone's activities. But, alas, the world we have is the world we get. A liberal society understands that rules and laws are necessary both for orderly co-existance and so that some members don't misuse their freedom to adversely affect their neighbors. Are you suggesting that plastic bags and straws are good for the environment, you know, that environment everyone depends on? Yeah, those would seem like over reach, except so many cretins are degenerate azzholes, they have to be steered in a direction that doesn't adversely affect everyone else. (Elect me as your illiberal dictator and littering would be a capital offense, punishable on the spot.) Since ag is and has for a long while been a factory industry and not small family farms, yes, there needs to be rules for raising chickens and other livestock I suppose. How the masses are fed affects society. Seatbelt laws (and motorcycle helmets) are so society at large doesn't end up paying for the perpetual care of victims of the careless. I'd rather have the seatbelt law than to pay for care of the injured. Call it a self defense law. If society only got stuck with the cost of shoveling up splattered remains, I'd be fine with that. Liberal enough for you?

Is it too soon to talk about a third Trump impeachment? This moron can't propose any action that isn't unconstitutional, illegal, unwarranted or unwise. For two election cycles he complained that other nations were emptying their prisons to flood the streets of America with dangerous criminals and mentally ill individuals. So, what's the first thing Trump does when he's elected...flood America's streets with more than fifteen hundred felons, miscreants and misdemeanor violators. Hypocrisy Much?
Then, there's the attempt to end birthright citizenship by executive order, which is unconstitutional. Or, the overnight firing of 17 IGs, which is illegal. There's a procedure for dismissing an IG, and Trump didn't follow it. I'm still waiting to witness the clusterfvck that follows his attempt to deport millions of "illegal immigrants".
The pillars of the MAGA/Republican Party are Corruption, Cover up, Political Cowardice and HYPOCRISY. The party hasn't had a platform they wished to share with the American voters the last three election cycles.
Think Trump will still be in office come midterms?

Trump is a convicted Felon and will be the greatest president in history,, bringing the most change and causing a collective shift in how the world works and the way people think...

Some of you retards were confused on why I myself was not arrested by the FBI for speaking freely...

Trump is going to change the money system,, the structure of government and purge idiocy and corruption...

Not to mention Trump is going to end the IRS and Federal Income Taxes completely,, fund the federal government completely on Tariffs like it was between 1870 and 1913...

I began this thread as Greed meets Hate, but it has now devolved into greed & hate meet idiocy. Trump is a stain on the fabric of America.

America has changed if you have not noticed..

Pretty much everything I have warned you about has happened or is happening…


Trump is working with other leaders/oil producers to up production and flood the market with oil to crash the price and force deflation on all goods and services while at the same time forcing the FED to lower interest rates probably to negative…. Forcing the FED to turn on the printing press to feed the demand for cash And to hyperinflate the money in a booming economy with deflated fuel and goods prices… To force the FED into a position where their debt can be paid off without interest in hyper inflated currency also exposing the FIAT dollar as inadequate to service the US/world economy ushering in Gold as the new standard as obvious.

No. It has evolved into a more well-rounded discussion instead of your blabbering, hateful, rant that it started as.



Streamer

America is certainly changing, or Trump is trying to change it. He fired 15 inspectors general (most of whom he appointed during his first term) without taking time to note that he cannot do that under the law. He must give Congress 30 days notice and provide clear and cogent reasoning why each one should be removed. He could follow the law and still get it done because the Republican Congress would likely agree with Trump that the IGs should be fired to better facilitate Trump's corruption throughout the 15 executive government agencies.

Past practice becomes policy if not challenged…