Allright, we all know that standard gear for a bankie @ Blue Creek or Barrier is AT LEAST a 8 foot leader. But what other rivers around here do guys throw those types or rigs? I'm not talking about the guys that throw 6 footers at the nisqually or Kalama. I'm talking about the "real deal" flossing rivers. 8 foot leaders or longer.

Did you say 8 FOOT leaders????????????


has anyone ever wondered how long that fish is on your hook before you finally realize it?

what a joke!

By the way what does "FLOSSING" mean?

The Fraser river in B.C. during the sockeye season. From what I've seen, if you're not using 10' leaders, you're not catching fish.

The Puyallup and Carbon during the silver,king and chum runs but you dont have to have that long of leader do to the water visability!!

On the lewis river we use 2-3 ft leaders. I use usually 3-4 ft on the cow at blue creek and do just fine. 8 ft that is lining the fish

Riter drift on the sky after the 8/1 opener. lots of flossers .8' leader with a fly,watch out for all the experts. :p :p :p :p :p

Why would anyone want to know where are all the best places to snag fish? unless you are a game warden. I can't see why anyone would want to know that .

...so you can fish elsewhere.

hmmmm! shorter leader, less reaction time for the fish. the cow is a joke! i can't believe people actually fish leaders three times the length of their rods i do just fine with a short leader, and i usually will LAND my fish, instead of fighting it for ten minutes and three slips in the drink.

Why is a guy standing on the bank throwing a 6-8 ft leader a flosser,but a guy can do the exact same thing in a boat with the exact same setup and he is not?
Just curious.

Because there's a REASON for using a long leader from a boat. From the bank, there's no advantage using a leader longer than about 40".......unless you intend on doing some dental work.

From a boat the long leader gives your bait a natural presentation, from the bank it just lets you cut a 10-foot-wide swath across the river.

I don't know about leader length but you can go to any Washington state river in the fall and see more snagging that legit fishing.

we need more enforcment with officers having more ability to issue citations based on what we all know to be true through experience not based on what they can prove in court to a judge who knows nothing about fish or snaggers. Thier word in court should be the same as an expert pathologist in a homocide trial.. Mostly though we just need more fish anf game officers willing to do their jobs. Not just driving around looking for yellow stickers on windshields.

I normally use 5 to 6 foot leaders. I feel that gives me a natural presentation from the bank. I have never had a problem missing fish because the leader is to long, nor have I had a problem catching fish with long leaders. I am not flossing.I use too but I used 14 foot leaders for that.

There is definetly a market out there for snaggers so why the heck doesnt the fish and game depo raise the fines ridiculessly and open snagger Zones on hatchery only Terminal fish areas like Hoodsport, and Gorst creek. Would that take the pressure off some of the native stocks? Alaska does it Missouri too!

Yeah, but do we really want to be like Missouri ??

As most of you know, long leaders typically = hooks in the mouth. Hence, flossing... Do I floss on the Cowlitz. Didn't used to, but ever since last summer I've become pretty darn good at it. I also thought that it was a form of snagging. But you got to remember, the Cowlitz is full of fish that were meant to be caught. If they aren't, they are shipped back downstream so they will. Flossing on the Cow is no big deal and it's only effective when there are large concentrations of fish with swiftly moving water. I've never "snagged" a fish on the Cowlitz. Sure, I've got a few on the outside of the mouth, but never a body shot. I think that some of you feel that lining fish means hooking them in places "other" than the mouth. If I foul hook a fish I let it go automatically. I've snagged far more fish with a short leader than with a long....
Go ahead and bash me now but I know some of you can see what I'm saying.

I agree. I've had better luck getting hook-ups in the mouth with longer leaders than shorter ones. Sure I snag fish, mostly chum, but I never keep them; I rarely keep chum. But I only fish 5+ foot leaders in clear water, if the water is stained then I might go shorter by a foot or two. If your want to to see snagers, go to Tolkul Creek durring winter, people fish here with leaders under a foot!

Jay

Wouldn't flossing be a good thing if it means hook in mouth? If I'm correct on this, then why are you guys talking about it like it is a bad thing?

Jay

Dan S
Another question.Why is a long leader needed for a natural presentation out of a boat?Your cutting the same long swath.But extending it by the length of the drift.
Why isnt a short leader just as effective from a boat as it is from the bank? Especially since your able to cover so much more water and adjust the speed of your drift so much more efficiently.
I only started freedrifting last year.Although we had a lot of success I'm not very knowledgable of the ins and outs of it.I had best luck when the bait was between 1oclock and 3oclock.And even had a a few hookups when dragging the bait straight behind the boat.But tried my best to avoid that angle.As I always heard its not productive.
If your line is at 3oclock,dont you stand as good or better chance flossing a fish than a bankie?

Fromcuthroattosteelies,
I commend you for an honest reply.And agree with your logic about the terminal fisheries.Those fish are put there to be caught.I really dont care how anybody does it.Especially when there are huge excesses of hatchery fish.When it comes to smaller runs,Nates etc.Then I dont agree with that tactic.

FromCtoT you make a valid point. All of those hatcheriy fish are there for people to catch. You pay for them with your licencses. If flossing is required to catch them than do it.

Fishingjunk15, if you are fishing tokul creek with a leader longer than a foot you're fishing surface film. I have'nt seen to many winter run hatcheries rise to anything. But then again, if you are fishing tokul creek are you really fishing?

Want to see some snagging at its finest, head to your local north puget sound river during chum season. I have never seen fly guys so exicted landing moldy dogs. I have a problem with that because they are disturibing wild spawining fish. Oh well, what can you do. If I call local authhorities to report a violation nothing is still going to happen. Oh well, what can you do. On the other hand, check out whatcom creek in late oct, early nov. The snag fest of all snag fests. Its a shoulder to shoulder jerk off. I watch once in a while for entertainment. I think its great. There's a 100 people fishing, and loving it. They are all hatchery fish. There for the people to enjoy. I call it equal fishing opportunity. Keep the crackers in one box. I would hate to see the majority of those people dispursed through out a river system.

Yes hatchery fish are there to be caught....but LEGALY. Lining/flossing is legal in other states but not in Washington per the definition in the regs. Snaging is defined as hooking or attempting to hook a fish in way in which the fish does not volunteerily take the bait IN the mouth. When lining/flossing the fish accidently catches the line and when you set the hook it penitrates from the outside in. Yes you can legitimatly catch fish with a long leader, but its not needed. FCTTS admitted that he started lining fish, thats snagging, thats against the law. No other way to put it.
With the logic stated above why not just chuck a stick of dynamite in blue creek and harvest your limit, after all those fish are there to be caught and thats the way they do it in Alabama (no offense intended to Alabama residents )

RL

Fishstick, I support the harvesting of hathcery fish. If flossing is required to catch fish than so be it. I never said I support snagging. The entertainment aspect? Pandemonium. Have a look some time.

Lunch time just found the crux of this problem..

These fish will bite!! it's doesn't take flossing to catch them!!!
I fish the cowlits in the summer and bring fish charging to the surface from 8 feet of water to smash a fly.. They are aggressive and will bite. Flossing them is wrong and illegal. if flossing them is the only way you can catch them well do something different..

This mentality is exactly why I think terminal fishery locations such as blue creek and the meat hole on the Lewisshould be closed to fishing fishing simply because so legit fishing actually occurs there.. Actually i shouldn't say that about blue creek because i never fish there so I don't know. However I think any fishery where most fish are snagged should be closed and if the legit fishermen are willing to tolerate snaggers in their midst the closure is their own fault..

Untolerated bad behavior goes away. tolerated bad behavior becomes common place and soon everyone begins acting badly..

Rob Allen, good points. But why close them? It does give people a chance to catch fish. Not every one has a boat or pritvate access to these rivers. Hell they might not even know where to go. They just want to fish. So they pick up fishing and hunting lies, which tells them the barrier is hot. So they go. and watch every one hook up but themselves. All they really want is to catch a fish. For many, the only fish for the year. Do you think they care if they flossed/snagged that recycled fish? NO. Do I? NO. If people don't like seeing this type of behavior (fishing), then don't go to these areas. Out of sight, out of mind.

Another point, it doesn't affect my fishing, and it doesn't limit the number of fish I might catch. The last thing I would do is stand in a line to fish. When I do fish the Cow, I usally stop at the end of the day just to watch the people fishing, flossing, snagging, or maybe just enjoying themselves. In my opinion its all good.

RockLizard, If you are fishing to fill you limit, your doing it for all the wrong reason. Stop fishing, save your money. Go to the grocery store and buy the fish. Logistically speaking that is.

Fishstick, I would like to "re-learn" what fishing is. Maybe you could elaborate for me. Better yet, I will open up a book and read, if I can.

Fishing, 1: the sport or business of catching fish 2: a place for catching fish

There you have it, straight from webster's new collegiate dictionary. Is that the wrong book?

Well said Rocklizard... It's about ethincs... which I'm working on every time out...

Cuttie, with your new found lining skills I'm sure you'll do well this season on the Skoke. At least hopefully better than when I saw you out there last season...

The great thing about these "non-biting" terminal hatchery fish is that yes they will bite. They love good eggs and will greedily take them when not harrassed by gangs of Liners/Snaggers...

Where in my post did I say I fish for my limit or for food? Please re-read. I was implying that most of these "flossers" or what I and the State of Washington call snagers, are only concerned with filling there card or getting there fish for the BBQ.
Yes hatchery fish should be harvested but you should do it within limits of the law.
Also, thats a nice definition of fishing, try using it when the gammie is writing your ticket for snaging. The only definition they go by is the one stated in the regs book....not authored by Webster

RL

RL, this is getting to be fun. And thats all it is. Right?

I re-read your post, and it still reads, "With the logic stated above why not just chuck a stick of dynamite in blue creek and harvest your limit, after all those fish are there to be caught..."

And, I will not assume that you are implying that I am a snagger when you said, "Also, thats a nice definition of fishing, try using it when the gammie is writing your ticket for snaging."

Tell you what, the next time I hit the cow, If I have an open seat it will be yours for the taking. At the end of the day we'll pull out and spend a few minutse people watching. First, we can laugh at the guy who is fishing at the launch. You know the one who is appauled that we disturbed his water for using the launch. As we drive out we can observe the guys rigging their new rods, Yeah, the rods that still have the plastic on their cork. I will think to myself, good for them, there fishing.

To sum it up, there will always be people that don't abide by the law. There is not a whole lot I can do about it. It is not worth my energy to be overly concerned about their ethics. I just worry about my own.

Hnt/Fsh,

When you're on the bank, you're fishing from a fixed position. When your lead makes contact with the bottom, your corky/bait gets in line with the lead as it goes downstream. This is the typical driftfishing technique. Sometimes a longer leader is needed to get your presentation away from the lead, but there's really no need for a leader longer than 4 or 5 feet.

The flossing technique is different. You cast out that long-ass leader, and when your lead makes contact with the bottom, you start reeling in line so you sweep that long leader across the bottom.....and if fish are stacked in there, you're going to hook one whether they're biting or not.

When you sidedrift from a boat the boat stays in motion, so the long leader combined with the moving boat gives the corky/bait a gliding, natural drift. It's a completely different presentation than you get from the bank, and most of the top guides who sidedrift use 6ft +/- leaders.

I just can't fathom the reason for using a 10 foot leader from the bank aside from it's effectiveness for flossing. Of course, you don't need a 10 foot leader to floss on a smaller river, either. It's the cast, wait, reel in slowly and steadily, and set the hook if the line comes tight presentation that identifies the flosser. Some guys are really good at it, but I never found much sport in it myself.

new regs for washington coho this year ur bait has to moving in the water! no more letting it sit to snag the fish when they swim by. as far as the comment about fish and game not doing their jobs i think that we all need to take a look at how many officers their are to enforce all the waterways ie. rivers,lakes, streams etc... instead of badmouthing try putting ur vote to work instead of ur mouth. ur either a part of the problem or the solution.

I'm trying to understand the pro-flossing stance. Hooking a fish in the ass is unacceptable, but hooking it in the side of the face is OK? So if a guy is chucking spark plugs with treble hooks and he snags one, I mean, flosses one in the face then that's ok, right?
The autolite wielding snagger has no intention of getting the fish to bite and tries to hook them anywhere on the fish's body. The flosser, on the other hand, has no intention of getting the fish to bite and tries to hook them near the mouth. Flossing sounds like snagging to me and to the state.

If flossing floats your boat than go for it! As long as the hatchery gets there qouta, and as long as there hatchery fish your flossing who should care about that besides some P.E.T.A members. Fish dont fight after you blow them up with dynamite and thats no fun at all unless your some kinda weirdo!

I would love for someone to show me how they catch fish "ethically" in the skok when there is 20 to 70 people standing in the water right above the fish. For that matter how about the Quillecene!

I guess you could call me a right wing wacko for my views. Hatchery fish just dont rate, I really can care less how they are caught, whatever bust your nut.
True Native fish on the other hand I will be the first person to report your ass for snagging.

Bill W

My intent was not to badmouth game officers but that we need more of them #2 that they should have more discression to issue citations
and 3 as on the Cowlitz they need to get out of their trucks and go down and look at what people are doing. On the Cow they typically just drive through the parking lots looking for the yellow access stickers.

I have not been checked by a WDFW officer in the last 16 years! There are flagrant snagg fisheries in Washington that the state is doing nothing about..That is an extremely bad senario!! If they aren't willing to enforce snagging laws they should shut down the fishery...

i HAVE FISHED THE COW FOR 10 YEARS IN A ROW. BANK AND SHORE. i WAS AT THE POINT THE DAY BEFORE THE SLIDE. i USE AS LONG OF A LEADER AS POSSIBLE. THE TOP GUIDES ON THE RIVER ALWAYS ASK ME FOR THE REPORT ON THE STRECK i AM FISHING. WHEN THEY ARE TAKING TWO TRIPS A DAY, i USUALLY SEE THEM AT THE LAUNCH TO CHAT BEFORE THE NEXT TRIP. IF YOU WANT MORE FISH IN THE MOUTH, GO THE LONGER LEADER=MORE NATURAL DRIFT. THE FISH BITE AND TURN WHILE THE LEADER IS STRAIGHT BEHIND THE LEAD. HAVE YOU EVER SEEN THE SIZE OF THE ROCKS ON THE BOTTOM OF THE COW AT BLUE CREEK? THE LEAD ON THE TOP SIDE WITH THE TINY CORKIE/EGGS MAYBE ON THE OTHER=FISH ON

I resent the fact that some of you people are labeling me as a snagger. Truthfully, it's getting me pretty fired up. As many people on this board can attest, I AM a sportsman. I have a true passion for fishing and I am also a pretty darn good fisherman. Do I release nates? Absolutely....Do I clean up my trash? Surely... Do I educate rookie fisherman? All the time.... The only river in which I employ this tactic is the Cow. Heck, I don't think me using a 6 foot leader is overkill. I never said "I" was the one using the 10 footer. Watch the guides freedrifting during the summer @ Blue Creek. Every leader is at least 5 feet. I've caught many fish with long leader legitametely "inside" the mouth. If you go back to the original question I simply asked on what other rivers is this technique used. This wasn't supposed to become one of those venting posts. Come on guys....It was a simple question. On what other rivers do you see guys using such techniques?

Hey Trailrat! I think I did get my fish on the Skok that day. However, it was pretty slow. You were'nt knocking em' dead either big guy.....

You guys are just to much sometimes!

Fishstick:

What make you think that people who prefer "flossing" is not "sport" fishing to them?


Lunch Time:

You say that; "FromCtoT you make a valid point. All of those hatcheriy fish are there for people to catch. You pay for them with your licencses."

If your logic is true, please explain how that works then on the Cowlitz, or any other river system that has "mitigated" fish runs. On the Cowlitz the WDFW pays almost NOTHING for our fish! Both the salmon, trout and steelhead hatcheries are funded completely by Tacoma Power for the mitigation of the "lost" of fish that were caused from lost of "upriver" production of the Cowlitz (dams). Except for a few dollars that WDFW spends on a few net pen projects, its Tacoma who is paying for all the hatchery fish!

RockLizard:
You say; "Lining/flossing is legal in other states but not in Washington per the definition in the regs" What page did you say that you had read that "linning/flossing" was not legal? How in the world do you think that WDFW, or for that matter, anyone else could possibly prove that the fish that you had just caught in the mouth did not get hooked by its own choice? If WDFW could possibly prove or enforce such a rule or law they would have a regulation that would "limit" the length of a "leader"! The judges would still be laughing at that one! I can just see it now. . . judge asked the witness (the fish) did you take that hook "voluntarily" in your mouth, or were you force to do it?


Rob Allen:
That's a good one too!
You said "This mentality is exactly why I think terminal fishery locations such as blue creek and the meat hole on the Lewis should be closed to fishing fishing simply because so legit fishing actually occurs there?" Can you please explain how you can "close" a hole for fishing but at the same time it remains open for "legit fishing"?

bill w:

You say;" new regs for washington coho this year ur bait has to moving in the water! no more letting it sit to snag the fish when they swim by." What page was that on again? Most snagger's do exactly was you have say not to do!


micropterus101


Cowlitzfisherman

You always come through when it counts Cowfisherman......

I always have loved this topic. First off, the laws are the laws. We may not agree with them, but they are still the LAW. No excuse saying "everyone else does it". There's a big difference between someone trying to actually fish and someone just tossing out and yanking on every bump. Yes, they do plant hatchery fish for us to catch. But they can be caught using standard gear. You just need to learn the tick of a rock vs. the tug of a fish. I've lined and snagged fish. But very rarely. If it's hooked outside the mouth, I release it. I'm not greedy and am not there to have to fill my punchcard. I had to do that when I was younger. Now, I fish for the fun of it. But saying the fish are their for us to catch, so catch by any means is crazy if you hook in the mouth. I understand some are uneducated and have no idea. They feel a yank and set back (and you'll see snagged fish or lined fish most of the time).

But, to each their own. It's all a personal thing. Each have their own ethics, and follow them. I'm not going to preach. This is an issue that stirs the pot. Not worth the time slamming guys too hard that line/snag.

Yes it seems like a silly definition Cowfisherman, but its not my words its the states, you know the law. Here it is, a direct quote on page 16 in the sportfishing rules pamphlet.

" Snagging- ATTEMPTING to take fish with a hook and line in such a way that the fish does not voluntarily take the hook(s) in the mouth."

Next page (17) under the heading "You may not", "Snag or attempt to snag fish."

With almost 12 years of active duty Air Force under my belt, one thing Ive learned is that rules/regulations need to be interpretted properly. It seems as though the flossing/snagging group refuses to do this.
Putting aside the law for a minute, yes I do think lining/flossing/snagging fish is unethical WHEN the fish being targeted actually are willing biters. An exception to this may be the paddle fish fishery in the midwest, they eat micro plankton.
How is flossing a fish at blue creek sporting? I thought the whole point was to "trick" the fish into thinking your bait/lure is food or a predator, not to smack them in the side of the face/belly/fins with your hook. Sure its fun to play a fish no matter were its hooked, but why intentionally try to foul hook it?

Cuttthroat to Steel,
The main reason I replied to this post is that I always enjoyed reading your posts and beleive you are an accomplished angler. Youve had a lot of good tips in the past and in no way do I doubt your angling skills. I do however, urge you to re-think your stance on flossing.

Lunch Time,

I fish Blue Creek from thank bank alot in the summer and also from my sled, so Ive already seen the things you pointed out. I have an older smokercraft (maroon stripe) with Yamaha 115 on the back, keep a look out for me and Id be glad to have beer with you and maybe share a laugh or too.

RL

Trying too explain to you why flossing hatchery fish is ok is like trying to tell a vegan eating meat is ok! Of course the vegan is going to say eating meat is unethical, but is it really? Some people dont have money flowing in and they can only make a limited # of trips so they get the fish however they can.Some people just enjoy having several fish on throughout the day. If you dont like it fine but dont force your views on others.

I know its the law but it was a law put into effect by a liberal and all liberal made laws should be repealed!

Flossing at blue creek off the bank? I dont think so. There is no need. The fish bite faster than you could floss them. But if somebody wants to waste there time have at it. Just dont set the hook on every fricking rock and chunk of wood. Line ripping through the water will spook them suckers faster than some guy wearing a hunting vest standing right above the fish. Fish feel like soft wood youll know when you hook one!

The keeping your line moving regulation is only on certain rivers other wise we would be hearing from the plunkers.

Last but not least I want to reiterate I dont floss anymore I have moved on to better methods that are actually legal.
But like I said before hatchery fish dont rate. wild fish will get you in trouble.

If your calling the game warden on people snagging hatchery fish your stupid! Especially if you care at all for the native fish. fisheries officers have to respond to every call. The more calls they get on hatchery fish = less time protecting native ones.

M101, the excuse about people who only get out once a year is a load of BS. Why lower the bar for them? Do you think that people who only hunt once a year should be allowed to shoot from their trucks and shine deer at night? After all, they only hunt once a year and want to take something home with them.
Before I report a snagger, how can I know if he's snagging natives or hatchery fish?

Food for thought!!!

RockLizard,

You are right! I do know something about our fishing laws. Lining/flossing is not going to get you a ticket that will stand up in the courtroom! Now why would I make such a statement?

Its simple, lets just use your own example; " Snagging- ATTEMPTING to take fish with a hook and line in such a way that the fish does not voluntarily take the hook(s) in the mouth."

Using your logic, how on earth do you think that a "game officer" or for that matter, any officer of the law, could possibly have the balls to stand before a judge and testify in a court of law, and maintain a "straight face" while attempting to convince the judge that he (the officer) "knows when" a fish has "voluntarily" took a hook in its mouth? I can just see it now!

Judge; did you see the fish take the hook into its mouth? Officer; well, no but I known that he didn't take it "voluntarily". Judge; ok how do you know that? Officer; because he was the only one using a long leader and was the only one catching fish. Judge; what does the length of the leader have to do with snagging a fish. Officer; because fish has to breathe by opening their mouths so that water can pass through and get them new oxygen. Judge; so how can you tell when a fish is biting and not just breathing. Is there any other place that a person can legally hook and land a fish other then in the mouth? Officer; no! Judge: why are you wasting my time, "case dismissed"!

Since logic tells most of us (that's you, me, and the judge/jury) that the only place that a fish can eat is from its mouth; and that the mouth is the only "legal" area that a fish may be hooked in; and indeed the fish had been hooked "in the mouth", what fishing law is being broken?

Think about this one; if you go 100% by what the WDFW regulation say, your bare hook could also be legally considered as a "Lure" (i.e. the Lake Washington Sockeye fishery)

Lure; as defined in the fishing regulations: "A manufactured article constructed of feathers, hair, wood, metal, glass, cork, leather, rubber, or plastic which does not use scent and/or flavoring to attract fish". The last time I checked, hooks were made from "metal". Even the use of a bare hook could be considered as legal under the definition stated under "Bait" in the regulations if scent is placed on it! So what's not legal?

You may have had 12 years of active duty in the Air Force under your belt, but it appears that you have not spent very much of that time in our court rooms!

People do a lot of things that may be considered to be "unethical" in someone else's mind, but that does not mean that it is illegal to do it! Like it or not, until there is a specific regulation or law that states what's the maximum "leader length" can be. . . flossing will remain to be a legal method of fishing!

Out of all of the members on this board, how many times have you ever heard of one of them being cited by a game warden for "lining/flossing?

Snagging. . . yes! Flossing . . . no!!

Well, that's my opinion about linning/flossing!

I don't do it, but if I chose to do it, I would dare any game warden to write me a citation for doing so!!


Cowlitzfisherman

You dont have to explain why flossing hatchery fish is ok, you just stated that the flossers scare away all the legit biters by ripping their line on every rock and stick there!
Thats why I disapprove of it, it puts all the biters on lock jaw. And Im not FORCING my belief on anyone, just letting you know where I stand, nothing more nothing less. If someone goes down to BC and starts flossing fish, so be it.

And please dont mention me and PETA , liberals or vegans in the same sentence again, I didnt say we should release these hatchery brats unharmed, I merely suggested they be caught by legal means. Whether its a liberal law or not is not relevent, its a law, pure and simple. Theres alot of laws I dont agree with, doesnt mean Im gonna break em anytime soon.

CFM,
I dont know how a game officer will prove snagging in court as defined in the regs, but you know what , I dont care how. Its not my job, its his/hers.
Your also right about me not spending much time in court. Thats because I try not to do things that will put me there. I dont know about you, but my schedule is full enough without taking time to go to court to explain if I snagged a fish or didnt.
Im still not buying your argument on flossing not being snagging. I will agee to disagree on this one. According to what IVe read (and BTW thats the WDFW's example not mine) I believe flossing to be snagging. I know this is not going to go away because of some BB thread and believe it or not, its not something Im very passionate about at all. If someone want to floss a fish to put it on the table than they can go all out for all I care. Im simply advising them that it COULD be interpreted as snagging.
You made some excellent points though, and I have enjoyed this thread, even though its an old subject.


RL

i just think it is funny that 85% of the bank anglers at the cow use long leaders. hey, whatever floats your boat. but why do the 85% jerk at the end of their drift on every cast? give me a frickin brake. i know at times there are fish STACKED in there, but you cant tell me that a fish picked up your lure on every cast. LEARN THE BITE! thats where all the damn snagging happens.

RockLizard

Please do think that I am picking on you! You appear to a pretty smart person and I was not trying to put you down, even those it has sounded that way. I have worked with the WDFW over the years, and some of that was involvement in the revising of the WDW/WDF RCW's when the agencies were joined at the hip (now WDFW)!

But remember, what you have said "(and BTW thats the WDFW's example not mine)" The truth is, that is "your" own interpolation, and not what courts may say.

Likewise, my opinions on game laws are not represented by actual case law, but they are represented by a long time effort, both by guiding, writing, working within, and verbal contact with many WDFW personal and staff. Believe me, they know who I am!

They do not always agree with what I may say, buy they do listen, and listen well!

I have spent many years debating fishery issues with the WDFW, both in the courts and as friends. They too understand their own short falls, and depend on us to help them out.

The flossing/ lining issue is nothing compared to the other "real" fishery issues that certainly are facing us.

Do not get discouraged when we take you to task!

Sport fishers need each other like fish need water!

Cowlitzfisherman

Some are making much ado about nothing.

Considering the pure mechanics of flossing, it can just as easily happen using a three foot leader as with a 10 foot. Imagine: the weight drifts 6 inches from along the side of a fish, leaving 18 inches of leader extending out capable of drifting right between the lips of Mr. Fishy. Did the fish take it voluntarily? Who knows. Will a fish take bait at the end of a 10 foot leader voluntarily? Absolutely.

The length of the leader is not what constitutes flossing, it's the intent the fisher-person has when using it.

Using the "long leader=flossing" algorithm would put a lot of flyfishers in a category I doubt they'd appreciate. Don't they pretty much make a cast quartering upstream allowing the fly to sink and then sweep downstream through a drift? By the definitions above, that sounds like flossing.

Sparkey, what do you think?

CFM,
Dont sweat it. I took none of your post as a personal attack, just a differnce of opinion. Ive read your posts in the past and have a great deal of respect for your experience, so your insight on this matter is taken seriously.
However, Im still sticking to my guns on this one .
The only thing I took as a personal attack is when micropt.. compared me to a vegan! A freakin vegan? Cmon you couldve compared me to Sadamm Hussein and I wouldve took less offense :p

goharley,
Good input on the subject, I was very careful not to include leader length in my post. Although it is more advantegous for a flosser to have a 10ft leader, its not a must. However, most of the folks at BC who use these leaders (from the bank) have the intention of flossing. I use a little longer leader when fishing there but it very rarely goes above four feet. As DanS stated above its the method of retrieve, not the equipment that makes it flossing.



RL

you wanna see real flossing, go to cancun for spring break.

Now THATS my kind of flossing

RL

CFM if the legit fishers won't eun the snaggers out ( by making it known that snagging won't be tolerated) , calling the cops.. They well it's their own damn fault and the fishery should close even to legit anglers.

I am personally just sick of snaggers and i want them off the rivers and i don't care how.. Better to have closed fisheries than fisheries full of snaggers.. In my opinion people should respect the resource or get the hell off the river.. If you need fish to eat that bad go get some power bait and hit the put ant take trout fisheries.. ahh hell with it i could ramble on for a lot longer but i think you get my point.. people who snag don't deserve to catch steelhead i'll leave it at that..

this is one of those topics that will never be resolved. Yes we dont want snaggers. and i dont agree its right either. but should we have a maximum leader length rule? its seems kinda out there to me.

had no idea there were so meny snaggers on this board. you all should just come to the mountains and huck TnT the way us hillbillys do it

Many of you are assuming that most everyone at Blue Creek with a leader longer than 3 feet is flossing. Simply not true. The terrain on the bottom (large boulders) calls for a longer leader (I use a 5-6 foot leader). I do not sweep and I do not jerk back on every cast as some will do. I jerk back when I feel a takedown and I prefer to have enough weight so I'm slowly moving downstream. I've landed a 100 fish or so at Blue Creek in the past 2 years and almost all have been hooked inside the mouth. All other steelhead rivers I use the standard 2-3 foot leader.

Cuttie, your right it was slow that day, a true liner would have had a heyday because they were stacked in there thick

To answer your original question, the lower Puyallup in early September, the hole behind the Fred Meyer is a liners paradise. Hey it's close to home too... Fish it from the North side of the river... Single 1/0 with a tuff of yarn will get 'er done...or so I've seen...

If you see me out there, smack me upside the head. I'll toss you a brew and you can give me some tips...

I think there are alot of funny instances here. I can tell who truly know how to flyfish and those who don't. If you're running a heavy sinktip or shooting head line with a leader, you're are so far from lining it's funny. Now, you talk about the guys who run floating lines with big SI's on 10' leaders with a heavily weighted fly. Then maybe, and that's an extreme maybe (depending on the person). But, most fly guys in most of our water conditions do a wetfly swing with some sort of sinktip with a short 3-4' leader on it. Similar to what most drift fisherman do, but lines are kept more in zone with belly in line (similar to a V formed with mainline of spin/cast rod to weight ticking bottom with leader going towards water surface with lure). With fly guys, you can tell them snagging/flossing just like bait/spin guys. Their motions are the same. But very narrow minded to group them (as MANY have done before). I've caught many fish running a fly rod, and have been strikes that have jolted my fly line like a strike on a standard rod. Set hook and "Fish on". It's the guys who set hook on every little move are guys who are in the "flossing" catagory.

I will say, I grew up fishing the Skok. I have taken TONS of fish legally with 20--30 guys fishing around me using red hooks with red yarn and sighting fish. BUT, one of the main reasons I stopped fishing there is because of same said guys. I could easily hook them legally, but trying to play fish while guys are casting over me made it hard to land the fish. I try to stick to rivers that don't pool fish up like some rivers. Probably one of the reasons I stay away from places like the Cow. I can still catch fish (when my body isn't injured) fishing not so stacked rivers as Cow/Skok, etc. Plus, I enjoy fishing, I like the peace involved with it. I always hated fishing down there, probably why my Dad would always fish the Toutle before the mountain blew, rarely ever went to the Cow.

But, I agree with Cowlitzfisherman. It would be hard to figure out who's flossing and who's not. I personally feel though, that a long leader is not needed unless you're running gin clear conditions. I've never had to use anything longer then 4' in most conditions. Heck, only time I've ever run leaders longer then 6' was fly fishing for trout. But was FAR from flossing. Running a 10'+leader/tippet on a floating line with a dry fly. Had to lengthen down to a very small tippet for weary trout. Now, fly guys running sinktips with leader/tippets longer then 4' I'd question. But maybe 90% I've seen have been well within those limits.

Flossing is going to be happening as long as there are salmon to catch. I have done it a time or 2 and might well do it again. An accomplished flosser will snag much fewer fish than a driftfisherman under the right conditions. I hate plunkers that snag, they don't even attempt hook fair. I much prefer a bighter, but when the water temps up, it can be hard to elicit a strike sometimes and I like to catch fish. Some of the best flossers out there use a flyrod. I watch it happen alot on smaller streams and the funny thing is that alot of them think those fish are biteing.. Its really funny to watch, espically when you tell them that the fish was flossed and their uppity attitude makes them blow their lid.
My dad is the best flosser I know he can catch sockeyes like no ones business, and he uses a flyrod with a sinking line and 4 ft of leader. (yes they are wild fish, but thats standard operation for sockeyes on the kenai tell me different and I tell you your full of s**t)
Rob,
when you say we should close these places that snagging occurs, within a couple of years no place would be open.. They move in packs directly related with the next article out of fishing and hunting lies. the only way to get rid of this crowd would be genetic clensing, which is even less popular than wanting to close hatcheries.
I love the Meat Hole boondobbing is a blast when the fish are in. Most of the guys there are pretty nice guys in my expirience and amazingly enough the barrier dam aint that bad if your nice to everyone, you can get drunk for free .

Sorry Rocklizard its the only analogy I could come with at the time.

Ok dammit, flossing doesnt invove yanking unless your a rookie. I flossed for many years, and I'll tell you this.

Flossing involves a long poll or long arms or both 10 pound test line max!. flossing involves as long as a leader you can safely cast without hooking somebody or yourself, for me that was 14 foot leaders. I didnt fish on the otherside of the barrier this year but I hear you guys were using two ounces,thats ridicules your defeating the whole idea of the long leader! a slip sinker rig 3/4s of an ounce is all you need when rigged with proper line test 10#. you want your rig drifting paralell through the river sweeping as much holding water as possible. Flossing involves size one or size two hooks tied back to back opposite each other with one or two lime green or pink corkies toothpicked the uppermost hook should have just enough yarn for scent (fish do hit this rig too!)

Cast this rig at about two thirty up river. Pull the slack out which will also straighten your leader. Once your drift rig is in front of you start to slowly move your rod up and down from the nine thirty position two the eleven o-clock position. Continue this through the end of your drift.

Never yank! your just chasing fish out of your drift into somebody elses an giving flossing a bad name! Just set the hook, your hooks should be sharp. As your slowly moving your rod up and down your hooks will grab the fish. You will feel it and know its a fish before you set the fricken hook! sometimes the fish are hooked in the pectorial fin but most are in the mouth. I have played hundreds of springer from the other side and most the snagged ones will take you around the corner. most the legit fish will take you half way down. they run acrossed the river and hold paralell to your position the quickest way to get them in is to run down river below there position and pull them towards you. If its in the snappers hold it up and show it of too the plunkers in the p-lot acrossed the way, holler back too them. There talkin alot of smack.

There I spilled my guts are you happy now.

Again, I dont floss anymore, But I dont care if others do.

Well williametteriveroutlaw, your Dad is the exception. I have a ton of guide friends up in AK and have alot of friends who live up there as well (most of the guide friends only live up there during summer, but a few own lodges up there year around). Not ONE flosses sockeye (and yes, most do floss them and they admit it) with a sinktip line and a short leader. So not sure what your Dad is doing. If that's the case, EVERYONE who uses a standard driftgear with 2-4' leaders are all snaggers. Your sinktip wetfly swing is exactly like a gear guys driftfishing with standard sized leaders. EVERY fly guy I know who purposely flosses (there is only one guy who I've heard of who could get a sockeye in Alaska to bite, Enos Bradner, and he proved it could be done) uses a long leader, strike indicator, floating line, and weighted fly. Of course there are guys who flyfish that floss. Just like there are gear guys who floss. I fish both ways, mostly in gear situations. But funny thing is it's funny how many of the same guys who call fly fisherman "elitists" are usually the same who call them flossers as well. So far all I've met and know they're in the 90 percentile. Why do you think jigs are so effective? Do you think they are a new creation? Um, no, they are a modification of a very effective fly used for salmon and steelhead. Been used WELL before jigs were used up here. But, are jig guys flossers too? They are using the EXACT same methods the so called "fly flossers" are too. SI's, leaders and weighted fly/jig on end. Too many close minded people out there. If it's against their norm it's "not ethical". I've found this in the flyfishing arena and the gear arena. Everyone is pointing their fingers at the other saying "tsk tsk". Like I said, I would only consider it flossing depending on the water conditions. Usually more gin clear conditions calls for longer leaders for spooky fish with smaller lures. I'd only come close to saying it's flossing if there's very low visibility and tossing these super long leaders. But to each their own. I don't preach about it. But funny how many will preach to me. And I've got it both ways. From gear guys while I'm fly fishing, and from fly fisherman when I'm gear fishing. Neither is better or more productive at times. It's funny how many guys have accused me of flossing summer fish with a fly rod. Well, only problem I use damp/dry flies for steelhead. Kind of hard to actually floss a fish if they willingly RISE to hit the fly. I guess if it makes one feel better if they're not catching fish, then so be it (especially in my situation, that fish literally is seen coming up after the fly, even with a damp fly).


Personally speaking, I think this thread should just be closed. Most threads like this are purely gripes waiting to happen. You get way too many fights brew over crap like this. And people wonder why in WA we can never get anything passed in our favor? We can't even get along with ourselves. Maybe if we actually TRIED to get along, we'd do some good.

Steelheader, I was refering to an elite few.. they spend a couple a grand to get a private spot on hatcherys stream (its rather small) and they sit down there a floss springers, all the time saying what a strong strike that was.
My dad actually runs a leader a bit longer than 4 ft I think its like 6 with a fast rate sink tip, you'll have to excuse me I am rather illiterate about flyfishing gear. In shallower water, like what cna be previlent on the kenai, it can be absolutely deadly, and yes he's one only a couple I have evern seen doing it on the Kenai. I grew up fishing that river, so whan I came down here and flossing was frowned upon, it was a weird thing for me to undersatnd.
I have no problem with flyfishing or flyfisheman, but I dislike there attitudes in many cases. I don't know what 90 th percentile of which you speak, and yes i fish Jigs, right next to guys flyfishing and we usually end up being even, or I end up a fish or 2 ahead. I fish Bobber and Jig (bait etc) almost exclusively, and it works well for me.

This thread is going nowhere, we as a society have to realize that we can only set values for ourselves and to attempt to force our own personal values on someonelse isn't going to be taken well. I apologize for my slander of flyfisherman in general, its just I have been arguing with a couple of them on other boards abotu everything from hatcheries to dams. Plus with what WT does, its givine me a cultural bias as Aunty m would say.

Good question FCTS. It's really only on the Cow do you see the 8-10' Leaders on a regular, daily basis, used by many folks in a given area. So much so, that this technique has become a "standard" for this river.

Maybe in Washington State, we should call it "cowing", and not flossing/lining.

Oh sure, I've seen lining/flossing/snagging on all our WA rivers, but not like the cowing crowd on the Cow.

I'd say the Cow is the only one I know of.

Brilliant Parker! Simply Brilliant......

I do refer to the them as the "COW" leaders, In fact, i think i could probably prepackage these leaders and spend half the year at BC or Barrier selling 'em and make a killing...

Parker

I usually do not like to butt heads with you! But you are wrong on this issue when you say; " It's really only on the Cow do you see the 8-10' Leaders on a regular, daily basis, used by many folks in a given area. So much so, that this technique has become a "standard" for this river."

Parker, you appear to know more about fish then most casual fishermen do. That may be because of your education, or the place that you work for!

But sometimes you also appear to talk about a river that you do not fish very frequently or do not know that much about. I fish the Cowlitz more then most who post on this board do, with the exception of just maybe a few. I do not normally fish Blue Cr. more then once a year from the bank. But I do fish the Cowlitz many more time then you probably do!

So here's my question to you Parker; Other then the 2 to 6 guys that may fish this way at Blue Cr, and maybe the 2-6 guys that may fish this way at the Barrier Dam, WHO are "ALL OF THOSE OTHERS" that apparently are now giving the Cowlitz (according to your version) as being the proclaimed linners/flossers of the state? Do you really think that is not a common practice in other smaller rivers that you prefer not to mention, that this does not also occur?

Sometimes the Cowlitz takes a "wrong wrap" when it should not! Many other smaller rivers have their own "local problems", and many also may unfairly take fish every season in "their" own ways and methods, but most people would rather turns their heads and focus this practice only on other larger fished rivers such as the Cowlitz!

Because of the large number of hatchery fish that we get at the Cowlitz, It becomes a simple target for people to shoot at. The problems on the Cowlitz are only a cover up or shield for all the other smaller rivers that are not hit as hard but fished in the same way!!

If all this stuff is so illegal, unethical, or whatever, why then aren't there more Gamies out here making their quota?

Long before I even knew what flossing or lining was, it was going on at many smaller rivers like the Satsop, its mouth, and other tributaries on the Chehalis.

The Cowlitz has its problems, but they are really no different then many other smaller rivers.

We just get a hell of a lot more fishermen here (thanks to Tacoma Power) because we have so many hatchery fish!

Sorry Parker, but you went a little bit too far on this one in my opinion!

Cowlitzfisherman

I actually just edited my post. Was long. But cowlitzfisherman, I realize you work/have worked for the state. But I've fished the Chehalis system for about 25 years, my Dad well over 55 years, and my grandpa before he died almost 80 years. Not one of us had ever used long leaders, and we'd had only seen maybe a handful of guys over the years using these long leaders on the Sop, or other Chehalis tribs. Have had property on the Nooch almost as long as I've fished the system, so have had alot of time to fish/explore these rivers. Funny thing, the few guys I've seen fishing there with the long leaders I've seen fishing at BC. Rest of guys used standard 3' leaders (give or take a bit). I'd say that's a bad assumption on your part. I know I didn't spend everyday there (I lived just off the Puyallup River) but spent most of my weekends, holidays, and vacations fishing the OP/Chehalis system. Can truly say long leadered fisherman were well in the minority. Now, summer conditions with gin clear conditions with traditional flow levels, you'll see longer leaders, but maybe 5' max. Rarely over that. And that's usually a presentation thing. But only in gin clear. Once the water stained, the leaders shortened. If you want to simply say you saw people with long leaders there, well you can say alot about any river in that situation. Every system has it's share of people. From fly fisherman to gear guys, snaggers to people who follow the book of the law. The comparisons go on and on. It's part of a true society that you have a diversity on the river. But most have seen more "flossers/longliners" in the BC area of the Cow then on most river systems. I'd say the Sop was a very bad example. Most of the snaggers there use heavy hooks and sight the fish and snag. They don't long line. Spent enough time floating that river, and know that they don't floss, they snag. More fish dragged out sideways/backwards.

Don't mean to gripe. But these are rivers my family has fished religiously since my Grandpa first came here back in the early 1910's. I'm really surprised my family just didn't move and stay there in first place. But grandpa worked for Boeing, so wanted as little a drive as possible, so he chose a halfway point (Fife). But I lived in both places. Fished the Puyallup, Green, Nasty during schooldays, fished the Peninsula rest of the time.

For myself. We rarely ever fished the Cow. We fished the Toutle alot before it blew, but that was always a special trip. Mostly OP for us on weekends. But I know that we only fished the Cow a few times over my fishing career. But I have personally seen more then just 6-10 guys long lining. That's an understatement. Wouldn't you say it's odd (but could happen, there is a chance) that everytime I've fished BC guys had long leaders? Even when I fished Cowtilla last year, saw quite a bit. Now, can I name you every guy who was doing it? Um, no, not God here. But I can recall at least 20 guys with long leaders. That was a short stretch too, since my sled carb intakes seized on me and I could only do ONE run!!! If I just so happen to only have shown up the few times all these guys did, I wish I would've known so I would've bought a lottery ticket. But, as I said. The Cow SHOULD NOT be known for a couple holes. I know it's a big river. But as with most bad apples, it spoils the bunch. It's spoiled the rep for the whole river over one or two slots. I don't agree with it. I also know A TON of guys who fish it without having to overdue the leaders and catch alot of fish. But most fish away from the hordes.

No mean to offend you cowlitzfisherman, but you are talking about an area that I can say "I've fished more then..." as you do the Cow. My Dad could really log the miles on most here, my grandpa, well, that's a whole nother story. Wish I could talk my uncles out of his pictures of limits off the Chehalis and Nooch from back in the early 20th century. Some of those limits and sizes of fish back in the early 1900's were incredible.

Plain and simple. If the method in which you are fishing the fish do not intentionally grab ahold of your lure bait or fly with their mouth then you are snagging and are therefore a snagger. There is no other way to put it.. you are what you do.. The deffinition of a snagger is one who snaggs. Period!! You cannot snag fish and not be a snagger!!
NO matter how much it's become accepted practice it's still snagging, still wrong. still unsportmanlike and still illegal!

If that offends you then quit doing it..

While i agree it could be illegal i have yet to see a gamer enforce it. I have seen on the other hand tickets issued for the retention of foul hooked fish. Ive also heard the officer say "why did you keep that one, because a few fish ago you had one hooked near the mouth which was legal...." He was talking to the guy he had night scoped on the Kalama in the bushes while this guy was catching and releasing fish untill he was ready to go home and kept the next fish, that happened to be foul hooked, hence the ticket because he bonked it and left. I believe this ticket was $400 some odd dollars. So either its up to the descretion of the officer or its legal as long as you do not retain a snagged fish or the officers are ignorant of the law?

What a joke.Is flossing fishing or snaging?I definatly know who the reel fishermen are now.

If it isn't IN the mouth it isn't a legal fish. No matterr how you try to justify it it won't change the fact. Simple as that. I bet if a few more flossing(snagging) tickets were wrote we wouldn't have the cowlitz zoo problem. 90% of those idiots can't fish.

Hatchery fish are there for the SPORT fisherman to catch not the snaggers.

amen glowball!

I never said snagging wasn't common place in other rivers. What I said was that snagging with a 8-10' leader wasn't common place in other rivers. A 6-8' leader is just fine to snag/floss on all our rivers. I see that a lot. What I do not see are the shoulder to shoulder guys with 10' leaders flossing away on other rivers. I have, and do see that on the Cow. That's the *only* river where I have seen multiple people consistantly use this long leader technique.

Sure, I might not fish the Cow that much, but when I have, I have witnessed this cowing technique by multiple folks.



Sure, I agree, but that's not what this thread is about. FCTS just asked as simple question. He didn't want to hear everyone's rants, feelings, and all the other banter that's on this thread.




I fully agree with you, CFM, but these are just rants, rants, and more rants. How does this answer FCTS original question? How about we save this for a thread that is appropriate.

All I did was answer FCTS's question, CFM. How is that going a little bit too far?

OK, CFM, let's hear all these rivers where I can go to RIGHT NOW and can CONSISTANTLY see MULTIPLE people using leaders in the 8'10' range and flossing fish??????

Uh huh. That's what I thought. Oh, and don't say the Wind, as the folks down there are too damn cheap for a 8-10' leader! A 6' leader down there seems to snag just fine! Again, I don't see the long leaders on the Wind...and it's a Snaggers Paradise.

Maybe folks should just answer the original questional to people's posts and not go on emotional tirades over other issues.

Sometimes, simple posts require simple answers. Not every post is a rebellion against The Man.

I just answered the original question. That will never be going to far....

I have fished every river major river in the olympic mountains and have never witnessed this long leader b.s.

From the looks of it, I'm pretty darn good @ starting lengthy discussions.

Parker, I thank you for sticking up for the original intent of this thread. I truly anticipated only a few responses from this one. I'd love to hit the river with you sometime. Rich G. speaks very highly of you.......
Cuttie

Sure, any time FCTS! Maybe we can convince Pat to take us springer fishing. Pat, you up for a rematch of last year? I *promise* I won't hit the only rock in the frog water stretch again!

Original Quote from Glowball:
If it isn't IN the mouth it isn't a legal fish. No matterr how you try to justify it it won't change the fact. Simple as that. I bet if a few more flossing(snagging) tickets were wrote we wouldn't have the cowlitz zoo problem. 90% of those idiots can't fish.

Hatchery fish are there for the SPORT fisherman to catch not the snaggers.

MY QUOTE: "PERFECTLY PUT!!"

Parker

One quick answer before I go any further. You asked me; " OK, CFM, let's hear all these rivers where I can go to RIGHT NOW and can CONSISTANTLY see MULTIPLE people using leaders in the 8'10' range and flossing fish??????"

Ask any shall receive! Here is your own answer from an earlier post by you, Quote; Oh sure, I've seen lining/flossing/snagging on all our WA rivers, but not like the cowing crowd on the Cow.

Parker, you know that Flossing/lining only works well when fish are stacked up. Thus, anytime the large runs of hatchery fish return, you can likely find or see flossing/lining occurring. As just one quick example, try viewing the meat hole or the hatchery at the Lewis when the silvers are in! Or try the salmon hatchery at the Elochoman or the Neselle or the North fork of the Toutle and the Green. It may not be happening "right now" but it will be happening soon . . . trust me!

Ok, I got to walk the rest of the guys through the park one more time or they won't be able to go to sleep on this flossing/lining thing! Maybe you may want to ride along with me and enjoy the ride! If you do, try to roll down that tinted window and look real closely, and maybe then you will see even more questions answered!

Someone, (not you Parker) may have been insinuating that I may be a promoter of flossing/lining . . . if so, dream on!

Now back to flossing/lining:

Can any of you guys please explain to me how one person can say that another person who is using an 8-12 foot leader with a "corky" or yarn attached to it is breaking the law?

Forget you're BS, and please tell all of us what law, rule or regulation supports YOUR opinion, that someone is breaking the "law" or someone is breaking some "unwritten ethical fishing rule" because they are using a 8-12 foot leader! Again, forget the "standard" BS attempt by repeating that worthless lamebrain ambiguous statement in the regs that says; "Attempting to take a fish with a hook and line in such a way the fish does not voluntarily take the hook(s) in its mouth".

Maybe Parker, or some other fishery expert can you explain or tell us why so many older studies that were supposedly done by science over years had claimed that once a salmon enter the fresh water, their stomachs start to close shut! Has that theory changed now? If it hasn't, why then would a fish want to "voluntarily" eat or bit your guys bait? Was it just a "bad habit" that the fish can't get over?

By the way, what moral law says that it is unethical to attempt to hook a fish in its mouth? Do you really think that fish "voluntarily" takes anyone's hook? Don't you try to fool the fish with covering your hooks with some kind of disguise like a natural looking bait? Do you think that fish will "voluntarily" eat baits if he knew there was a hidden hook in it?

What a bunch of crap! The only reason he takes that hook is because we "the fishermen" have cleverly disguised that damn hook with a piece of bait, egg, feather, shrimp, hearing, sardine, or whatever!

That's a good one! Who makes up these "ethical rules" and where in the hell can you get a clear copy of them (you know, the one that everyone can agree to)?


Steelheader69:

Somewhere you must have misunderstood me. I have never said that I have worked/ or have worked for the State! I have "voluntarily" worked with many of WDFW staff, but I have never worked for WDFW or the State.

If you recall, when referred to the Satsop, I was referring to the "Mouth of the Satsop" where it runs into the Chehalis. The upper Satsop is so darn small most of the time, that you got to step out of the way of the drift boats! The last time I was at the mouth (about 2 or 3 years ago) there were still plenty of guys that were flossing and lining! Like I said, it only happens when the fish are stacked up. But long before they were using those longer leaders, there was a "ton of fish" being flossed with the shorter leader on the Satsop.

The way I remember the upper part of the Satsop, at lots of places, a 10 foot leader would almost put you all the way across the river. Has that changed?

Cowlitzfisherman

Actually, you'd have to be a lamebrain NOT to understand that very SIMPLE to understand rule. There's NOTHING ambiguous about it.

And you're playing a semantics game with the "voluntarily" part. You know what "voluntarily" means, and so does everyone else........so why try to muddy the waters? Did the fish bite your rig, or did you just stick your rig in it's mouth? It's not a real hard question to answer.

That reg. is crystal clear. Any confusion must stem from a failure to understand simple English.

There is no law that says you can't use a 10 foot leader, but there will be someday. Apparently the fish do bite the hook quite often or else I'm just imagining those fish that have the hook in there mouth.

If you feel good about snagging fish and telling people "Yep got my limit again Bob how about you" oh well. Obviously myself along with several other members on this board have a conscience and go by our own code of conduct that is becoming less and less common on our rivers.

I would like to thank those of you who are trying to justify flossing for the good laugh you are giving me. Nice to know who the real sportsmen are and aren't.

Dan

So I take it that you are saying, or at lease insinuating, is that all WDFW Officers and State Trooper are lamebrains! (well may not all)

How else is someone going to interpret your statement; "Actually, you'd have to be a lamebrain NOT to understand that very SIMPLE to understand rule. There's NOTHING ambiguous about it."

As just one example; since you can regularly go to places such as the "Barrier Dam" and Blue Cr. etc., etc, and watch the local game warden or the local State Trooper who writes tickets almost daily for snagging just sitting there and watching the guys who are using those 8-12 foot leaders flossing/lining fish after fish and do nothing about it. So are they lamebrains for not writing everyone tickets? According to what you have said, the law is the law!


Why is it Dan, that they do nothing about it if as you say "it so SIMPLE"? If that rule was so "very simple" or it wasn't "ambiguous", why do you think that they are not enforcing it? We all known that WDFW and the counties all need the extra money . . . right?

Couldn't it just be that I may have been right, (oh no) and that they don't want to go to court and have the judge through their case right out of the court rooms, and look like fools at the same time. You tell me! Sounds like a no brainier to me!


That's a nother a good one too Dan! You said;" Did the fish bite your rig, or did you just stick your rig in it's mouth? It's not a real hard question to answer."

So you tell me the answer!

You're an experienced "free drifter" so why do you "think" that when you are free drifting from a boat that the "bite" feel so very much different then the "bite" that one feels when they are "drift fishing" from the bank, especially on winter run fish, when the water temps are really much cooler?

Haven't you ever wondered why, when free drifting from your boat, that the "bite" feels nothing like the bite when you are fishing off the bank? It has always been my experience (99% of the time anyway) that the "bite" is felt as a slow "pumping kind of motion" when free drifting. One could certainly form and/or make the opinion that you have dragged your bait into that fishes mouth while he was breathing and that the "tugging motion" is when the fish starts feeling the "line drag" and then starts to swim back to the spot upriver that it was being pulled from.

If you think that I am just blowing hot air about this one too, then please explain why any good free drifting guide is able to "see" his client's "bite" so well he can tell them when to "set the hook!" He can tell when his client is getting a bite just by watching their rod tips starting to do that famous free drifting "pumping" motion. Remember, Dan, I have over 10 years experience of watching client's to support what I have just stated! I also know that you will likely disagree, but that is nothing new either. Also, why do you think that the guides hook a large majority of the fish for their clients when free drifting? Why do you think that smaller baits and #4 hooks work so well when free drifting from a boat then from the bank most of the time?

You really got to ask yourself if you really want to be fair, are those fish really eating my bait all the time, or are some of them just getting lined when they open their mouths to breathe. By far, most of the fish that you catch when free drifting are almost always hooked in the corner of their mouths on the same side that you are drifting, and that makes the lining thing even more convincing.

Anyway, nothing to get mad about, so I am looking foreword to your reply!

Like most things, we all have different opinions and I am sure that your opinion will not always be the same as mind is, so take nothing personal about this debate about flossing/lining!!

Hey Glowball: It's a heck of a lot easier to debate the pro and cons of flossing/lining here on this board then to be setting in a court room trying to prove your point in front of a judge/jury. Flossing/lining, like it or not is going to be around for a long, long time, but I believe that a lot of good information/opinions has been exchanged about the subject.


Cowlitzfisherman

You guys are all stupid if you think that you've never flossed a fish. If you've every thrown corky/yarn and caught fish I guarantee at least some of them were flossed. Did you check? Like previously mentioned, you don't need a 10 foot leader to floss, heck, I've hooked several fish on the outside of the mouth "WITH EGGS" using three foot leader. Give it up fellas. Come fishing with me. I'll personally inspect each and every fish you land to see if that hook is inside or outside of the mouth. Remember, if it's outside the mouth you have to throw it back because you "snagged it." Give it up. Oh yeah, I guess I'm not a sportsman either. Funny how some "sportsman" know so little about how this whole concept really works.
- I'LL SEE YOU ALL AT THE COWLITZ!!!!!!

To me there is a difference between intentionally flossing a fish and accidentally flossing one. Flossing a fish with eggs and a three foot leader doesn't make you a non sportsmen cutthroat. If you want to follow the laws that have been set throw the fish back. This isn't rocket science. You know what is going on. I

If you don't enjoy the challenge and you are only after meat on the table go to safeway. Heck the indians will sell you some salmon for a decent price go check them out.

cowfish,

Are you trying to tell me you don't understand the regulation?

Is there something unclear.........maybe a word you're not familiar with?

Look, just because the state trooper doesn't pull you over when you go by him at 63, that DOESN'T mean you aren't breaking the law. You are.

Cowlitzfisherman, I didn't misunderstand, I meant that you worked in conjunction with rules and such. I misworded it.

I also have fished the majority of the river. I meant the "snaggers" fish the upper end. I know the river from headwaters to mouth. I used to fish the mouth alot, you had a good channel for incoming fish, and also the channel narrows out for fish running upper chehalis river. And, all the years we fished or ran our sled near mouth of Sop, never saw the long leaders you're talking about either. Most were smaller leaders, most guys were using bait or tossing plugs. Never once saw the flossing you're speaking of. I was down visiting my Dad yesterday, so asked him about this, just to make sure I hadn't missed anything since he's fished the rivers there alot longer then I have. He's never heard of the fishing you've described either. Most of the guys he knows either used floats in that deep hole in mouth of Sop, or used the standard leaders and swept through. Never seen a leader of 10' feet.

Yes, parts of the Sop are that way, but usually only like 2 holes on the upper end. Most you could easily fish a 10' leader. Plus, if they were doing a proper upriver and drift through, wouldn't take much of a river to get a proper drift in, even smaler then the leader length. I was using the upper river because it's where you'll see the majority of the snaggers. You see them throughout the river of course, but biggest horde is the way upper river near Schaefer Park. I'm sure there are guys who use these leaders, but not near as prevelant as at BC. Like I said, I've only fished BC a few times, and every time I've fished it I've seen majority of guys use this method. We opted from then to use sled and fish below that area. Why deal with that mess? So, hope that clears things up for you. We sled the chehalis mostly, and depends on time of year and what we plan to target, depends where we launch and were we fish. Have ran sled up near that hole many a times. Lots of fish travel up that way to enter Sop. So have seen those guys fishing quite a bit when we weren't trolling lower river. Never seen long leaders. Maybe 4-5' max, and that's only a few doing that.

Steelheader69

Thanks for your courteous and informative reply. I know we may differ on what we have each seen, but I can tell you; it is what I had seen the few times that I have fished that area. The good about this is we can voice our differences without getting all excited at each other!

I like the way that you have handled your writings and your replies for whatever that is worth!

Cowlitzfisherman

Dan,
Maybe, just maybe I understand more then you on that issue. What is it that you don't understand about " both of these officers " not writing tickets?

My last post addressed a lot more issues other then just the State Trooper thing! So why not comment on the "rest of the story"?

Besides, I have yet to hear that a single board member has ever been cited for flossing/lining.....have you?

Cowlitzfisherman

Attention Buzzboat!! What guides do you see with that long of a leader. My buddy is a bait boy for a guide and I know a few and they dont use leaders longer than 5ft at the longest. I have fished blue creek severel times and caught plenty of fish with a 3ft leader. They say the blue creek anglers are a different breed. Are you one of them, you think you own the river dont you. The locals that go to blue creek arent good sportsman.

cowfish,

Know anyone who's been ticketed for 62 in a 60? Were they breaking the law anyway?

No prob Cowlitzfisherman. Probably the day the BC guys showed up. The followed you down.

But, I've rarely ever seen that. At mouth of Sop, never. I used to fish it religiously. Great hole to anchor near, especially when sled alley near the pumphouses are full. Plus, you can anchor out of the way of the bank guys, so don't hurt their drift. No need to slam everyone, just causes an already heated discussion to become an irate rant.

Sorry fellas, I feel as though my last post was a little harsh. We've all got our own opinions and sometimes many of us get a little carried away. Let's drop this thread entirely and go do some fishing........
Cuttie

ok! i stopped at barrier yesterday and i seen the real deal flosser in the act. he would cast out to the big water with 1 1/2 bank sinker and pull-reel, pull-reel, pull-reel all f-ing day. not to mention his 10ft ugly stick to and 14ft leader to boot. oh yea! he did hook more fish than everyone else combined. stupid f-er.

I do not think this answers the question which was

" OK, CFM, let's hear all these rivers where I can go to RIGHT NOW and can CONSISTANTLY see MULTIPLE people using leaders in the 8'10' range and flossing fish??????"

IMHO the words RIGHT NOW, CONSISTANTLY AND MULTIPLE make the difference between the two statements.