I've seen it all now.
You would have thought that a major drug bust was going down yesterday at blue creek.
WDFW and Sheriff evey where you looked.

I had a friend of mine call me last night and said the same thing! He said the guys who were running the "patrol boat" were more dangerous then the guys who were fishing from their sleds. Apparently they only knew how to go one speed, and that was full throttle!

Apparently they had some kind of "joint effort" going on the between the sheriffs office and WDFW enforcement at the same time. He also told me that when they came back in to the "mission boat ramp", that over half of the vehicles in the parking lot had been "ticketed" for not having the vehicle Use Permit on display .

That's a $66 fine, or if you go out and buy the permit afterwards, and show proof that you have bought it within 15 days, they cut the fine back to $35! But it will cost you $10 plus a trip to the court house and court fees to do it!

You can image what the sport fishing guides must feel like when they bring back their clients and they have a $66 ticket stuck onto their windshield! I know for a fact, that there are a lot of unhappy fishermen and guides out there who are not very happy about supporting the WDFW or its enforcement officers in the future.

I know what I think about this issue, so what are your feelings about this special use permit?

Cowlitzfisherman

Come on now...not support the WDFW because they enforce the laws???? I have heard alot of *****ing right here about how awful it is that they don't enforce enough. The Cowlitz is a prime area to enforce since it is such a zoo....You get the parking sticker with your license so DUH? put it on your vehicle if it is required...this is not an extra fee that the WDFW is screwing you over with. Let's atleast be even handed here. Personally I think fines should be doubled on every offense so that we can have more enforcement . Those of us who follow the rules should not suffer but the ones who don't should pay through the nose.

Bring on more enforcement I say. I'd have loved to seen the looks on peoples faces when they looked at thier tickets. I can only hope that they ticketed everyone that deserved it.

No I'm not for more user fees or user taxes, but we have Tim Eiman to thank for that.

The rules and regulations are there for everyone to read and understand. If for some reason you decide not to follow said rules and regulations you deserve a fine. Simple as that.

WDFW enforcement officers don't make the laws, they enforce them. So I will not bash "Gamies" for doing thier job.

As far as the way they operate the patrol boat on the river, I've seen them patrolling twice this summer, being checked once, and in my opinion they were as safe or safer than a lot of the "sled jockeys" out there.

it seems to me that if you are fishing with a guide you have to have a fishing license and you get a special use permit with it so if you get a ticket for not displaying it it is you fault.

I second that of larryb

You buy a license and you get one of them permit

I happened to be floating the Cow on Saturday and saw the task force in action, they did very well. The only part that surprised me was the fact that two of the sheriff's deputies were riding around in polaris type sea doos. They were quite curtious and very safe I didn't see any behavior on their part that would cause concern. Kudos for the good work out there..

My opinion, WDFW likes doing the fun busts i.e., sting operations by boat; oh did I mention a brand new Almar boat. I am all for enforcement by the way, however the way they do it gives you a sour taste for WDFW, my buddy was on the Cow guiding 4 clients and got turned inside out, he was totally legal after a 15 minute delay. They had him throw all of his fish (7) on the deck so they could check for clips, all legal fish. This is the best part of the story - THEY TOLD HIM HE ONLY HAD 1 FISH TO GO FOR HIS CLIENTS LIMITS! GEE LAST TIME I CHECKED THERE WAS A 3 FISH PER PERSON LIMIT ON THE COW!
Next case in point, October 2002 while I was fishing clients for Coho in lower Cow, there was 6 Jr. High boys snagging and keeping everything they caught even the BLACK BOOTS, I yelled over and asked why they were snagging and keeping these fish, there response "MR. xxx at the C&C Market pays us a $1.00 a pound even for the dark ones head and all.
I called the WDFW Region 5 and immediately reported this, I was told they would get back with me to sign the complaint and would look into this. In December I went to WDFW Olympia office to pay for my 2003 Guide Licenses, while there I thought I would follow up, since they never returned my call. Guess what they could not find the report, so I filled out a report and signed it, at the North of Falcon meeting at SeaTac I talked to the head enforcement officer for Region 5 and he had NO Clue about this violation, and he took my phone number and said that he would follow up on this. To this day I have not yet heard a word on this. I don't think WDFW could have had an easier major violation to do a Sting on than this.
I am convinced they justify sting operations just to get bigger and faster boats and vehicles.

For those of you that know nothing about guiding or taking people out fishing that are from another state;

Just to set the record straight, for the guys that have friends from out of state that may come here to fish with you or if you have recommended them to have a fishing guide take them fishing, please try to member this; a very large percent of these people, or clients spend lots of "Big bucks" here locally. For many small river communities these fishermen are their life blood. When these people purchase their "2 day none resident fishing licenses", they do not know, nor are they usually ever told that they are required by law, to purchase a "Vehicle Use Permit" along with there none resident fishing license. 99% of the time they are NOT told by the people who sell them the 2 day fishing licenses that they must also purchase the Vehicle Use Permit if they intend to be parking along a boat ramp or WDFW river use parking area! This is really kind of an "entrapment" if you ask me! As just one example, both the Blue Creek and the Barrier dam boat ramp and parking lots are privately owned by Tacoma Power. You are not required to have a "Vehicle Use Permit" to park, fish or lunch a boat at either of these 2 public fishing areas.

That means that if a guy lunched his drift boat at Blue Creek, he would not be required to show that he had purchased the special permit. Now he takes his buddies rig down to the next boat ramp which would be the "mission boat ramp" and drops off his car so that he can run back and pick up the other guys rigs with the boat trailer when they have finished their drift.

When they get done fishing that day and they pull in to the ramp to run back and get there rig with the trailer . . . they are now welcomed to Washington with $66 ticket on his windshield! That's a bunch of crap in my opinion!

Most everyone who is a resident here already knows that he needs to show his yellow use permit sticker in his vehicle! Say what you may, but it’s a stinking trap in my view for the poor guy who comes to this state to fish!

But then again, for some of you, you can never get enough bureaucratic laws and rules can you!

I am not saying that they were right or wrong, but some of you need to get off your high horses and put yourself in their shoes! It could easily happen to you someday if you were going fishing in some other state!

So grandpa you next time you make statements like;

[ Please try to think twice!


Cowlitzfisherman

Saturday afternoon they were truly out in force. One of their boats ended up on the bank just above the cedar snag at the upper end of ethel bar.

Going back to camp, and saw a gatoraid bottle and a ball cap floating down river about the middle of Ethel/brim bar. A couple of guys were waving at us from the upper end of the hole. Wew hoped we didn't see a body and skooted up stream. The wildlife guys were just getting up the bank, soaked to the bone shivering and shoeless. We offered them a ride down to BC, but they wanted nothing to do with a boat.

Apparently they came screaming down through the head of the hole, saw the cedar tree, somehow hooked the boat up and were thrown out. The boat ended up 90% out of the water with the big motor completely covered up a 60% incline.

We went back down that evening to show the girls and it was gone. Looks like the towed it up the bank.

Where did I just hear someone say;


Good thing no one got hurt....well maybe their pride!

Cowlitzfisherman

Writing vehicle use permit tickets at a river launch sounds lame to me. What really is cheesy though is using up the already spread to thin enforcement personell to concentrate on a frickin hatchery circus. More evidince that the fish and game doesnt care about **** except for easy money. Sure bust the small guy for no permit posted but leave the illegal fish snagger sellers / buyers continue uninterupted.

I think that some of the guides can join in on taking the blame here.Only because they have clients meeting them at the launch.Most fish hardly at all.Or are corporate guests etc.They have no knowledge of the permit.(back to the liscensing agent)The guide should advise his clients beforehand if he is using a launch where the permit is necessary.Or agree to pick them up at a point where its not necessary.
Those people that buy a regular liscense have no excuse in my book.

CFM,

You're right, most of the people I've bought licenses from have no clue what's going on, and I had no idea that you don't get a parking pass for a two day license. People come from out of state to spend money here and F&W won't let them park in one of these lots for a day or two? Doesn't make sense to me and seems pretty cheap on the state's part.

But be that as it may, there is a large red and white sign at the Mission ramp stating that a parking permit is required and what the fine is for not having one. (although I haven't been there for a while, so I'll have to assume it's still there). I would think that clients would question their guide about this. Unfortunately, you can't count on the license vendors to tell people this stuff, so wouldn't the guide's be at least partially responsibility to inform clients before heading down?

That parking permit is ridiculous. The Mission Bar is a public place, we all pay taxes to the state government in some form or another. Not all people who use river access parking are fishing, but there's no doubt they are tax payers for sure. I've seen quite a few folks down at the Mission just relaxing and spending an evening on the river. Since most of the Cowlitz is private property, alot of folks can only get to the river at the public boat launches. You shouldn't have to show that permit, if they want to check to see if you are a legal fishermen, they can check your damn fishing license.

Am I the only one missing something here?

The WDFW does not make the laws. Nor will they ever. Their job is to enforce the laws that were passed by the Washington State legislature and signed by the Gov.

The vehicle permit idea came about because virtually all State operated fishing access areas were bought and paid for with either fishing license dollars or excise taxes paid on fishing equipment. Therefore, the angling pubic (us) paid for those launches. But other members of the public were using them without paying for them (kayakers, boaters, etc). The Legislature thought those folks should support the construction and upkeep of those facilities, as we do. Therefore, anglers get a free permit with their fishing license while others need to pay their fair share thru a vehicle permit.

It's wrong if non-residents are not informed about this requirement when they purchase a daily license. They need to know the rules. When I go to another State to fish, I want to know what is required so I can stay within the bounds of the laws and regs. I don't want to be known as an out-of-staters who can't follow the rules.

In any event, let's lay off the WDFW for enforcing the rules. It may be fair to critize them for their high profile tactics, which appear to have taken place on the Cowlitz; but their job is to enforce the laws as written, not to question the existence or appropriateness of the regs. Even if we don't always agree with them.

But don't count me in that crowd. I think the vehicle use permit is a good idea, although I admit the fine is a bit steep..........

Your damn right coho, we paid for it so why the hell are they writing us tickets. The difference between a fishin rig and trailer is pretty obvious isnt it? why dont they write warnings to the rigs that are obviouly fishing.

My brother came down to the Cowlitz for his first steelhead trip from my sled. He didn't have a license, so went up to the barrier dam store. He bought a 2 day and got the vehicle permit with it.

Didn't ask about out of state, by I am going to assume you would get one with that as well.

The other trick these guys are pulling is to hang out in a small cut or back eddy ( like the ones above and below the cabin hole), and wait for a boat to net a fish. As soon as a rod goes back in the water they pounce on them. Writing tickets for not punching fish. I only had to see it once, and I started pulling my punchcard out and waving at them as I punched my fish so they wouldn't waste mt time.

cohoangler

Are you really serious?

Do you really think that WDFW didn't "promote" this Vehicle Use Permit?

You said;

What about the guy who just goes hunting and doesn't go fishing! It is my understanding that these areas were developed from taxed generated from both hunting and fishing sales, is that not correct?

You say;

That sound really good, buy do you really think that someone from out of state is going to sit down and read all 128 pages of the fishing regulations just to go fishing at one river for that day? Even IF they did read them, do you think that they would realize that the Vehicle Use permit was not already included in special 2 day license?

It sounds like you would even support putting up parking meters on every "pull- off" on our state highways too, just because they were build with state funds! Where is Arnold (the terminator) when we need him?

There are lots of laws that are on our states books that are not being enforced by our officers of the law. I guess it's just an easy way for WDFW enforcement to make money writing $66 parking tickets.

In my opinion, this was a very chicken thing for the WDFW to do. Well, I guess they do need all that extra fine money now, so that they can pay for the boat that they just crashed and screwed up! Well I guess things to go around after all for the good deeds that one does!

Cowlitzfisherman

RK43

I just called the authorized WDFW license dealer here in Toledo and asked them if a Vehicle Use Permits comes with the 2 day none resident fishing license. Her answer was a big NO! It does not come with the special 2 day permit.

Cowlitzfisherman

I think cohoangler is right on target. The rest of this rant is sour grapes. Change the politicians and the laws before throwing stones too hard at WDFW. But it makes some good sport here on the flame thrower BB.

CFM - I will do my best to answer your questions.

Am I serious? Yes.

Did WDFW promote the idea for a vehicle use permit? Likely. But so what? They don't pass laws. The legislature does. Get it? I'm sure the legislature considers WDFW's opinions but WDFW has no more rights to express their views than you or I.

The excise taxes on hunting and fishing are completely seperate. The hunting taxes are on rifles, bullets, and other hunting gear as authorized by the Pittman-Robertson Act. The fishing taxes are authorized by the Wallop-Breaux Act (formerly Dingle-Johnson Act). The formula and the dispersment are completely different. So if a hunter wants to use a fishing/boating access site (e.g., for duck hunting), they need a permit like everyone else.

Should non-resident have to read the regs before they fish a river just once? Yes! Absolutely yes! They need to know the general regs plus the specific regs for the river they plan to fish. I would agree that if they're planning on fishing the Cowlitz for one day they probably don't need to know the specific regs for the Skagit, or any other river in Washington. But they darn well better know the State-wide rules and the Cowlitz regs before they drop a line in your favorite river. Is there anyone out there who disagrees?

Lastly, you can disagree with WDFW's enforcement priorities. That's a legitimate concern. But you can't disagree that parking without a permit is illegal. Besides, prosecutorial discretion is always within the jurisdiction of the enforcement authorities.

One more small detail to add.

If I'm not mistaken, it's Lewis County, NOT WDFW that receives the funds collected from those parking citations issued, just as it would be Snohomish County receiving the funds if the citations were written on the Skykomish river for example.

4 Salt,

I do believe that you may be right!

It is now my understanding that about 90% of the Vehicle Use Permit" Fines do go to the "local court". That even makes the need for us to purchase these stamps even a bigger scam then I had thought!

Since all the work is done by WDFW, Why in the samhell are we sending the fine money to a local court?

Cowlitzfisherman

I believe that all funds from WDFW citations, including poaching, are collected in the respective counties. I'm not sure about confiscated gear though.

Probably for the same reason that even though the WA State Patrol (a STATE agency, just like WDFW) issues the vast majority of highway traffic citations, it's the respective counties that the violations are committed in that receive the penalty funds. I believe because it's the local municipal courts that adjudicate them.

Didn't you say that the Wardens were being assisted by the County Sheriff's deputies as well?

The WDFW law enforcement officers need to stick to their job, and that's busting big time poachers, Indians, and people illegally selling animal parts. They aren't meter maids. The amount of money we pay in taxes in this state, including license/tag fees is already outrageous. They need to streamline their act and use money wisely instead of whining about not having any money and then cracking the residents with more fees, taxes, etc. That parking permit isn't free, nothing is free, it's figured into the price of the license. It's time to keep invasive government out of our pockets. We need more men like Tim Eyman out there fighting back. We shouldn't even have to pay for a fishing license, if we cut out a few worthless social programs and put the money into the WDFW, problem solved. The anti-business, anti-landowner government in Washington needs a big shake up. More business always equals more tax money. Less regulation is always better for the people and the government. It's too bad the west side of the state is infested with the Puget Sound region of liberals and wacko environmentalists. We need two states, The People's Republic of Puget Sound and the real Washington.

cohoangler

I just went though and read the summaries on both the "Pittman-Robertson Act and the Wallop-Breaux Act" (formerly Dingle-Johnson Act).

Now, more then ever, why in the devil are we paying these addition user fees? With all that tax money, why are we being charge additional fees for parking?

What are we missing here?????

Cowlitzfisherman

I understand that the parking permit idea was to get users other than licensed anglers to also help pay for the public boat launches. However, I'm not so sure that it's just WDFW money that purchases and develops them in the first place. The state Interagency Committee on Outdoor Recreation, or something like that, has often been the source of funds for public access facilities. And I believe IAC's money is appropriated by the state legislature, meaning that the public accesses are acquired with public money from the general fund, and not exclusively from the purchasers of fishing licenses. If the general public buys and develops the accesses in the first place, I've wondered about this "rent" being charged in the form of the parking permit. But I think CFM may have captured it in his reference to parking meters. It's just a revenue collection scheme to raise additional funds from those who don't buy fishing licenses but park in public accesses. Sorta' like day use fees at state parks.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Sounds like a typical government scam.

What do you think is the best way to fund public river-access maintenance, Salmo?

Salmo

Now you're talking!


Cowlitzfisherman

I think we all know that if one tax is eliminated or reduced the politicians find new revenue sources to make up for it and then some. Lots of bills get loaded down with garbage taxes as payoffs for one politician supporting another politicians pet tax scheme. Until and unless we cut spending and raise revenues I would expect more of the same. It's all about raising revenue for one thing or other. Not enough money for fish and wildlife because we overspent on social programs etc etc....

The parking stickers or permits were supposed to level the playing field by making those using the access areas pay a share of the cost and not just us fishermen. Hikers,kayakers and the like also have to have a permit sticker. We get ours with our fishing license and , yes, the cost is figured into the license fee. Those who do not buy a fishing or hunting license still must purchase a permit.

Remember when the intitiative process lowered license tabs to $30? Next thing you know there are tons of other fees to take the place of some of the reduced taxes. Cities raised all kinds of taxes on such things as cell phones to help keep their revenues up to pre-initiative levels.

I think we just keep coming back to the political angle as the root cause of what we are complaining about. I would be willing to bet that those who complain here probably voted for the same rascals who caused the revenue problems in the first place. And you might just continue to complain and vote for the tax and spenders anyway....Run all the businesses out of the state and tax us to death and then wonder why we have stupid parking permits for areas our tax money paid to develop in the first place. Can you say Liberal Democrats? Socialists? Locke, Murray, Inslee,Sims?????Sound Transit?

Are you guys for real?

How about the WDFW charge the going rate for using boat launches. I don't know about the rest of the state but the various Puget Sound launches that I have used in recent years (City, County, State Parks etc) daily launch fees are $5 to $10 per day with annual passes typcially $35 or more. We get a annual pass for free with our license and can buy another for $5. Non-license holders can get a permit for the grand sum of $10. Private access points often charge even more.

Of course if we fishermen were willing to pay for the total cost of upkeeping these areas for all the users those permits would not be needed. However to do so would mean our license fees would have to be considerably higher.

In can remember that in the early 1960s (back in the days when fishing was good and we got value for our $$) when I bought my first fishing license (freshwater) it costed $5.50/year. At that time the minimum wage was $1.25. That meant as a youngster I had to worked for 5.2 hours at the minimum wage to earn enough to pay for my license. Today the minimum wage is $7.01 meaning that one working the same 5.2 hours would earn $36.45, or roughly 1.6 times more than the $21.90 the freshwater cost today.

In comparative $$ today's fees are cheaper than 40 years and still remains the cheapest recreational $$ that I spend. Many of the folks that I talk with expect that their license costs should remain constant or be reduced but at the same time expect that they recieve annual cost of living increases in their own incomes. You think that at least some of you could be consistent.

Regarding the Counties getting the money from fish and game violation fines. As I recall decades ago we (through our elected state legislature) gave the each of the Counties the option of collecting property taxes for Game department land or the fines from fish and game violations. I'm not certain (sure that CFM will correct me if I'm wrong) but WDFW is the only state agency that pays that property tax.

As long as the future of this State's fish and wildlife resources and the recreation they support are dependent the selfish and whinning attitudes expressed by some in this dicussion they are doomed!

Tight lines
Smalma

It sounds that many of you want perfection out of the WDFW. It is never going to happen nor is it ever going to happen with any public agency nor is going to happen with a privately run company nor are you always perfect, Mr. CFM.

So give these guys a break...

It seems to be you want everyone else to be checked but yourself. You ***** about the snaggers and poachers and then complain when you are checked...why is that??

I for one commend the actions that the WDFW is taking to increase enforcement and their presence on our local rivers.

On a related note....

I have run across a game agent 4 times since June 1 on 4 differnt watersheds (3 out of the 4 times it was the same rookie agent).

Recently, I ran across the Sgt. (Randy) based out of Mill Creek and applauded him on a job well done by one his new agents as well as him (I never ever would of expected to run across an agent where I was fishing).

When I feel the WDFW is doing the best they can, I let them know as they take plenty of abuse from all of us.

Holy smokes 4Salt ,
that just made my whole outlook on the blue creek task force even worse that it was. I cant believe that money doesnt go back to wdfw programs! (really I can), but this kind of duky has to stop! they need to quit being pussy cats and go after the big guys for a change. Like I said before using limited resources to bust people that are fishing and forgot to display there sticker, and forgot to punch a fish right away on a hatchery run is sooooooo lame. kinda like a warden I know who spends just about his whole day righting tickets on a terminal fishery while there is snagfest 2002( soon to be snagfest 2003) going on on two native runs that are well within his range! I have seen guys snag fish after fish after fish until there trunk was full of native silvers! I have reported several times and nothing nothing nothing nothing nothing nothing nothing is ever done!!!! I have no respect whatsoever for the wdfw anymore! They need to change period!



Great now its 12:50am and I am all fired up. See what you did.


Sparky, I have seen guys congradulate the warden on the Quil and head right over the hill at the end of the road and snag away. Funny thing is that I noticed there barbed hooks yet the warden did not. I dont even have any special training. Interesting ploy though.

Micro,
I get frustrated there also.I have tried for years to get a gamey to make a showing at a couple of the local native snagfest.They could care less.But then you here about parking games???

Funny how people can complain so much about something they aren't for sure about. Are you a gamie? Do you know what goes on behind the scenes? You only know the small fraction of the pie. Most of which is hearsay from joe blows little brothers girlfriends dad.

You guys would cry if you were hung with a new rope. Take it to the next level. Do something about it if you're not happy.

It's amazing on how everyone dials in on parking permit enforcement and brushes over 2 major points that I brought up on page 1.

1. WDFW officers not knowing that the limit is 3 steelhead on the Cowlitz now.

2. Handing WDFW a major snag and sell violation with the snaggers admitting to me and my clients what there intent was to do with the snagged fish, sell them the C&C Market in Castle Rock. To this day I have contacted WDFW 3 times, they never followed up. It's been 10 months now, so I'm sure my report is as cold as ice by now since I think it was not investigated at all.

Sparkey
Because of your young age, your lack of paying taxes, your lack of knowledge of law, your total lack of dealing with bureaucratic government policies, and your obvious personally attack on me, and your total lack of personally working with the various branches of the government, your remarks speak for themselves, and do not need to be rebutted by me!!

Smalma,

You should know better, so I am not going to let you off the hook so easily! Most of the time we agree on fishery issues and I respect your vast knowledge of the species and for the most part, your knowledge of the fishery management.
But I must draw the line on this one!

You say;

That sounds like the logic of every government bureaucrat that I know! Charge us for something we already have paid for, just to keep your own agency jobs in tack!

You also said;

Who in the devil do you think is paying to keep these faculties up now…the tooth fairly? Who do you think pays the taxes that are authorized by the Wallop-Breaux Act (formerly Dingle-Johnson Act)? Oh yea, that money doesn't count . . . or does it? What hole has that money now been diverted to?

Smalma

This is what we "gave to the counties";

RCW 77.12.201
Counties may elect to receive an amount in lieu of taxes -- County to record collections for violations of law or rules -- Deposit.
The legislative authority of a county may elect, by giving written notice to the director and the treasurer prior to January 1st of any year, to obtain for the following year an amount in lieu of real property taxes on game lands as provided in RCW 77.12.203. Upon the election, the county shall keep a record of all fines, forfeitures, reimbursements, and costs assessed and collected, in whole or in part, under this title for violations of law or rules adopted pursuant to this title and shall monthly remit an amount equal to the amount collected to the state treasurer for deposit in the public safety and education account established under RCW 43.08.250. The election shall continue until the department is notified differently prior to January 1st of any year.
------------------------------------------------
It's the "counties option" to keep or not to keep the money from the fines or the property taxes!

Cowlitzfisherman

Glow
Your right I would be p,o. big time if you used a new rope
There not broke in and strangle ya.
I want a nice used smooth rope
It will just snap your neck.

AuntyM,

I'm sure that it is not active, and they prefer the real easy tickets, i.e. parking decals. And they love buying new real fast boats that they do not know how to operate, for pleasure busts or stings. Like the recent cedar tree incident on the Cowlitz.

RL let me ask you this, would you prefer WDFW to chase down that poaching ring in a Sears Gamefisher with an 8 hp on the back, or in a "fast" enough boat where they could ACTUALLY catch them. You know the cops got faster cars too...

You can't out-run the radio, as long as you can get an ID on the boat, it's done.

To all:

What a friggin JOKE!!!

You do- gooders just kill me sometimes!

You all sit here and tell us what a great job the WDFW law enforcement is doing on the Cowlitz and how they should be enforcing the laws. You say that WDFW is just doing their jobs on the Cowlitz because the "legislators" have mandated them to do. What a bunch of hog crap!!

Every time I bring up the issue about the failures of WDFW, especially on the Cowlitz, I hear you whining about how under paid and over worked they are. Like I said, that's a bunch "hog crap!" Now why would I say such a terrible thing like that?

OK you bureaucrats, here it comes so you better hang on to your panties!

You say that WDFW is just doing their jobs, right? That's plain BS! WDFW spends big bucks down on the Cowlitz River screwing the "fishermen", by writing a bunch of stupid a$$ parking tickets and running up and down the river crashing their boats!

They can find the time and money to do these kinds of enforcement stings on the fishermen on the Cowlitz, but they can't find the time or money to enforce the laws when it comes to allowing the fishermen his rights to have access the land that the WDFW spent over $40,000 dollars of our license fees on!

That's right, WDFW spent over $40,000 (and that was in the value of the dollar in 1971!) to purchase "public fishing easements" to the biggest Public Use Site on the Cowlitz, and now we can't even use it because some jerk has decided to keep the public out, while he let's his buddies in. And it's all on same land easements that WDFW paid $40,000 for us to use. And you guys wonder why I get so pi$$ed off at WDFW!!!

The Wallace Gravel Pit easement was bought by WDFW in 1971, so that 1000's of yards of access easements could be used by the public for fishing. But oh no, WDFW would much rater spend all of there efforts, time and money in writing some stupid a$$ parking ticket instead of writing the guy who is blocking our public fishing access a ticket!! Like I said, what a bunch of Hog crap!

Now how could anyone defend WDFW actions after knowing the real facts? We are being denied access to our own fishing access easements while the WDFW officers are playing parking maids! They will write us a ticket for trespassing to get to our fishing waters, but they won't write the "Jerk" a ticket for blocking our legal access to the water!

Cowlitzfisherman

Amen to that, at least there's one other person out there that feels the same way I do about the way the real people get screwed by the WDFW and other government agencies. We pay for something once that we should all have access to and then we get screwed for using it if we don't pay again!

Since when did they start busting poaching rings? I cant even get them to bust little poaching rings! You know, the type of poaching rings that a sears gamefisher would be perfect for?


River runner,
Yes your also right about the wardens not even knowing the regulations they are to enforce, its the same here.

Glowball,
You dont have a clue whats going on in the real world do you?, funny how you can say so much about people you know absolutly nothing about. I may be the son of a warden for all you know. Why dont you fill us in on the rest of the "pie" instead of just stopping in here to rass everybody with a different opinion than yours. Tell us why they are harrassing sportfishermen instead of busting poachers. whats the big secret glowball?

RIGHT ON COWLITZ!

4salt
I would prefer they know how to run a river with a game fisher safely than learning with a big V8 in a big boat, my point is WDFW Enforcement looks for any excuse to spend BIG MONEY on boats and vehicles that they can't operate safely! Take Saturdays encounter with the cedar tree.. GEE YA think they might have been going to fast to make the corner.. Thus not knowing how to control the boat in dangerous conditions! Oh yeah and I really like someone (WDFW Enforcement) being on top of the current regs i.e. there is a 3 FISH LIMIT ON YHE COW not 2, as they told my buddy.

Well where are all you bloody bureaucrats who were crying before about enforcement? Cat got your guys tongues? Can you tell us how hard WDFW enforcement is now working to cover up their butts on this one?

I started calling all the key WDFW people at 9:00 am this morning and I still have not had one person in authority call me back yet with an answer. . . I wonder why?

Now that I have walked the talk again, don't you think WDFW should do the same?

I am waiting, waiting, waiting for them to answer! Oh, I know, they are to busy giving out parking tickets while we can't use the public access that we have already paid for!

Cowlitzfisherman

Cowlitzfisherman-
Your clear dislike and distrust of WDFW is coloring your thinking!

When I suggested that WDFW might consider charging the going rate for use of a boat launch you replied-

"That sounds like the logic of every government bureaucrat that I know! Charge us for something we already have paid for, just to keep your own agency jobs in tack! "

As you well know what we all ready paid for was the acquisition and development of an access site. However, they still require annual upkeep. Someone needs to clean up the garbage that the various slobs leave, repair flood and erosion damage, repair damage caused by vandalism and other general maintenance. This all costs money - above and beyond the original cost. Does anyone doubt that those costs are increasing with the seemly endless increase in users of the various accesses.

As I see it there are really four choices in pay for the upkeep on public accesses (without that upkeep will soon have none).

1) Money from the state general fund - a move I consider very unlikely.

2) The current access permit system - for this to work enforcement action is need to insure compliance.

3) Increase of WDFW license fees - not likely to recieve support for most buyers.

4) Charge launch fees at rate that would recover the maintenance costs. Again it would require enforcement but at least only those using a area are paying. As I suggested earlier in my part of the state the typcial daily fees are in the $5 to $10 range.

I would like to know how you expect the maintenance costs to be meet from the original purchase cost?

Tight lines
Smalma

smalma,

Were not complaining about being required to have a sticker. After all it comes with are license! were complaining about the misuse of wdfw resources. Game wardens writing parking tickets at a boat launch where the users are predominatly fishermen with licenses who obviously have a permit but may have forgotten to post it. Also gamies stocking people just to jump on them and make sure there fish is punched imediatly upon landing.
Most importantly on a river where the fish are pretty much all hatchery fish. Mean while I have never seen such diligents on a river that supports a stock of mainly naturally spawning fish. Second off I am sick and tired of the attitude of some of these officers, some are very unprofessional and if they were not officers I would like to give them an attitude adjustment!
I have never had a ticket and never plan on getting one though I have had more than my share of encounters with officers who tryed to write me tickets and would have if I did not know the regs so good! Its a big pain in the arse when the wardens dont know the regs and try to make up there own! I guess you can call that corruption in a way. I and many other people have many reasons to disrespect the wdfw and its only going to get worse unless they start doing what we the sports fishermen who pay there wages want them and pay them to do and that is protect are NATURAL resources not harrass inocent people or people who may screw up a little here and there in terminal or hatchery fisheries. I know I am not the only one who has witnessed gross violations on natural runs and could not get wdfw to even raise a finger! yet they are always in full force on hatchery rivers or terminal fisheries. Going for the easy money and filling there qouta with small timers. Every once and awhile they fall into a good bust and they play it up on the website, that says something about how often they actually do there job! if they concentrated half the effort they currently do now on the small guy on catching big timers it would not be such big news but it would be a job well done. were not stupid were out here fishing every day we see everything that goes on its about time the state stops playing us for fools! Sheep follow blindly most fishermen are quite a bit smarter then the average citizen. Though some of us may not spell worth a crap.

Smalma

That's kind of funny Smalma that you would say;
You have been on this board long enough to known why I have formed such an opinion about WDFW. It didn't just happen overnight, nor was such an opinion formed without any foundation. I have posted example after example on this board documenting why I have formed such an opinion about certain aspects of the bureaucracy in WDFW.

Certainly not all of WDFW personal are screwed up, but after working with many of your staff members for over 18 years, I do believe that you guys have a real problem in your top management. This is the place where WDFW policies are formed and implemented.

It appears now that no mater who becomes your director, your still stalemated by the "old watch" and their lasting influence that they have maintained on any directors decision making ability. You been around long enough to know about these old guards, and there polices that they continue to promote. It just never ends until they have all retired, and then we must deal with these same clowns as "consultants" who hire out their expertise to huge Power companies such as Tacoma, Pacificcorp, etc, etc.

Yea, one does get a little tired of seeing the internal games that WDFW is so well noted for and yes, it does make one form some pretty harsh opinion of WDFW. Even those I have worked with many good WDFW personal, it still does not change my point of view about how screwed up WDFW really is.

Yes, I have tried to work within, and I am still trying to work within WDFW, but it just seems to never get any better. WDFW has become Washington's leading bureaucracy nightmare to its own people who they must depend upon for support. I can think of numerous examples WDFW inability to safe guard our resources or to enhance our sport fishing opportunity (which are both legal mandates). Here are two that come to mind as I am writing this reply.

One example is the "Wallace Gravel Pit" access issue. Key WDFW staff were notified in writing and verbally told of this issue numerous times starting back in June of 2001.

WDFW has spent well over $40,000 to procure this public fishing easement for the fishermen. They paid the owner for the easement and to build the road that lead to the river and even posted it with a sign saying that it was a "WDFW Public Fishing Area".

So 17 years later, the same guy who sold the game department the fishing easement comes backs, removes the signs, and then precedes to extend his gravel mining operation over the right of way and remove the easement road by mining all the same material that the game department paid him to put down. Worse yet, WDFW has allowed this jerk to gate off the easement entrance so that the only way to reach the river bank now is to walk over four thousand feet (that’s 4,000 feet) to reach the river bank to fish. That's a bunch bull $hit and in my opinion, both the owner and someone in WDFW ought to spend a few days in a ceil! I am still working as I write with WDFW on this issue, but it's already been thee years.

Second one that comes to my mind was the Cascade Aqua Farm fiasco on the Tilton River. There, WDFW allowed a private fish farmer to install a Atlantic Salmon Fish Farm and place a 3 foot retaining wall all the way across the Tilton River so that his projects water intake would remain stable. In tern for getting his water and destroying a bunch of wet land, and building the retaining structure, top WDFW only required him to mitigate by using his poop discharge channel for mitigation purposes. The field staff for WDFW wrote numerous letters to their superiors and addressed their concerns like you wouldn't believe!

All of the field "biologists" were 100% opposed to using his poop channel as migration, but they were overruled by key up top WDFW staff. Shortly after the field biologist had written to his superiors documenting his concerns about this project, He was transferred to Eastern Washington! Yea, you can say that he "wanted to" go there, but the word inside WDFW was that he rocked the boat of his bosses just a little too much! And if you think that I am putting a spin on this, or that I am not telling the trust, I suggest that you ask Salmo G about this "stinking issue" He was in on it and tried his best to help as he could, but WDFW and their clone WDOE out voted him. Now every year, they are catching Atlantic smolts at the Mayfield Dam fish collection facilities which just so happens to be where the Tilton Rivers dumps into!

Now I wonder how those Atlantics are getting there.....must be the birds are bringing them there!


So yea, I guess you could say that I may have formed a little coloring towards the WDFW!

If you need more reasons, it sure won't take me long to write about them!

Smalma, in this case it's not one bad apple that's going to spoil the barrel; it's the "barrel" that is ruining all the apples

Your just one of those poor apples in a rotten barrel !!


Cowlitzfisherman

CFM,

So, how do you feel in regards to Smalma's last question on maintenance funds? Also, ever hear anything back from WDFW about last weeks incident? Curious.

fish monger

You asked me; "So, how do you feel in regards to Smalma's last question on maintenance funds?"

Well I guess that WDFW must do what you or I must do! That's called "living within your budget"! Did you ever think how much that huge building cost us that they call their office in Olympia? Did they really need a new building that size? Or was it just WDFW's thought; "build it and they will come". . . new jobs for WDFW and more!!

Sometimes government just needs to clean their own house and quite whining about not having enough funds and money. They never ever have enough money!! Maybe some of them need to get out in the real world for a while and compete for their jobs like most of must do. Maybe if the state employees had to buy their own heath insurance instead of just paying pennies to our dollars, they would learn to "expect less" funding from us. Maybe if they could wait a year or two to buy new equipment, or trucks like most of us have to do, they could save us even more.

Maybe if they would quite costing the public so much in wages and benefits increases, we would have more money to spend on improvements that would benefit both the fish and us. Why must it always be the "other public" that must fork up the money for their jobs and their needs?

If it was me, I would turn the game enforcement over to the "local law enforcement" and forget about spending millions of dollars on these "special officers" One thing for sure, bureaucrats knows how to spend money! I think it's up to WDFW to breakdown there budget in a way that the "average sportsmen" can understand it and show how much actually comes into WDFW, and then show exactly what that money actually went out to. Once that is made available in a simple readable form, we can then see what needs or doesn't need additional funding.

As far as charging new lunch fees, that issue had already been figured into our licenses a long time ago! That was just an excuse for adding the stupid new permit that we must now have. It appears to me that it is just another way that WDFW robs Peter to feed Paul! The money goes into a WDFW "general fund" and then they use it for whatever they feel like using it for. We didn't need it before the special permits came out, so that tells me that they are using it for something else that is now costing them more money to do. So why hasn't WDFW been more open with us, and told us the real truth why they now need more funding?

If our state agencies are in finical trouble now, they have no one else to blame for it then themselves! It's just like you or I, if you don't have the money, you don't write the check!!!

If you do, you will surly wind up just like California with a 38 billion deficit.

Good or bad, you asked for my opinion and now you got it!

Cowlitzfisherman

Damn price of beer to much anyway... No more lunch fees....

Hey, if that little sticker will keep the launches open and at least semi maintained, let'em write tickets...

if your stupid enough to park without one on your car you deserve a ticket...

Sometimes it does gripe me when I see a gamey check the sticker on the car and not the licence in the pocket or the fish in the cooler. But it is the easiest 66 bucks the wdwf can make...

Turning fish and wildlife enforcement over to local law enforcement is a very bad idea. If you think we lack enforcement presence now, turning it over to local enforcement agencies would result in no enforcement of fish and wildlife laws. If an officer had to choose between a domestic violence call or snagging in progress, how do you think the officer would respond? Public safety would always come before enforcing any fish and wildlife laws.

Look at Oregons use of the OSP. They have alot of problems with rookies at the launches enforcing rules that don't exist or rules they have no clue about.

If the local police or state police are supporting a gamie then it's a different story. I would hope that the gamey would brief them beforehand on what they were looking for.

As far as locals sending cops out on their own to enforce laws they know nothing about.............thats a scary idea.

Sinker

They already do it right now in Washington !! The state patrol gives out fishing violations all the time!

Cowlitzfisherman

CFM, without trying to incite anything, do you know how many game violation tickets the WSP wrote last year? Of those, how many were incidental to a traffic stop as opposed to in the field (rivers, lakes, etc)? I really don't know the answers but believe you may have the numbers that would back up your arguement.

eddie

I don't know the exact numbers, we here at the Cowlitz River have a state trooper who writes lots of tickets up at the Cowlitz barrier dam. They work hand and hand with WDFW enforcement on nailing snaggers and guys with over limits, and guys that are fishing above the marker line

Cowlitzfisherman