What a terrible story and something that makes it more difficult for the other soldiers there. We are going to have to say more than "I'm sorry" for this one.

Meh. No, really. Its a war zone.

Gonna wait for what really happened before I respond how the media wants me to.

Sixteen dead including women and children.......guy leaves his unit by himself and goes off into town........

hard to misinterpret

like things aren't whacked out enough over there already.......this will not help

I heard a guy (supposedly some counselor who worked with the Military and their families) say "It makes you wonder who the real victim is". I damn near drove off the road. Are you f'ning kidding me?

In simple terms I suspect that alleged counseler meant that you gotta
be nuts to, one on one, shoot up kids. Like that nut in Arizona.
The shrinks will love it. " what were you thinking about?" etc.

4th tour.
3 Iraq
1st Afghan

Thanks for your service.
At least Korea didn't get sand in everything.

The Afghani's are looking for justice. For once I agree with them. I think we should turn him over to the Afghani "justice" system and let them take of him.

No, wasn't me.
The alleged shooter had done 3 Iraq tours and was on his 4th in Afghan.

If true, maybe those in charge need to look at how much these guys can take.

I can't imagine the stress of every time you go out on patrol you don't know if :

An IED is going to blow you into little bits
A sniper is going to nail you
One of your Afghan patrol members is going to turn and dump a mag into you
Maybe you're walking into an old-fashioned ambush

I agree.

Fish on...

Todd

Well, that would be the very best solution, to say the least...but I don't see that happening soon enough to have anything to do with this situation.

Fish on...

Todd

+1

No one should be doing 4 tours of duty in a combat zone, and if they are so voluntarily, they should have a psych exam before each returning tour.

I'm all for the guy if he snapped due to PTSD or some other form of war trauma. The military and his country let him down big time.

Perhaps we wouldn't need to send our brave young men and women over there 4 or 5 times if we didn't keep starting unnecessary wars!!

Hopefully they will kick us out of there.

I think our military produces superb killers out of ordinary men.

I think our nation and our military takes pretty poor care of its soldiers.

I expect there is more to this story.

I think our society produces supreme killers of everything.

Let's let WDFW manage the war........won't be any in short order.

Salmo, I agree that there is more to the story. I wonder whether we will ever find out what the rest of the story is? We had better, because openess and transparency is the only chance (albeit slim) to mitigate the Afghani response.

It would be bad enough if it was just an isolated incident.

I think that most (if not all) of this is on the Army.
They give these guys clean bills of health whenever they possibly can to save the cost of proper care.

This guy is a 38 year old Sergeant and probably a damn good one.
The kind of guy that looked after his charges and saw to it that they got home in one piece.
Those in charge of re-deployments would give the red carpet to a combat-tested non-com requesting to go back.


That sounds like a bunch of crap meant for local Afghani consumption.
They need to look at the system that failed to look after this Sergeant.


A terrible thing happened that night, there's no doubt about that.
Terrible things happen in war.

Amen

No winners here.

There is concurrently an investigation going on at Madigan that concerns some psychs denying a PTSD rating to some vets in order to "save the government some money." If it turns out this Staff Sergeant was one such soldier denied the proper diagnosis, those shrinks will pay dearly.

The media, today, chronicled a list of war atrocities committed by JBLM soldiers since 2002. Evidently, I work on a "rogue post."


As for some here that are now calling for us to leave immediately or hope for the Afghanis to evict us, kind of makes that whole "cut-n-run," "appeaser," and "better to fight 'em there than here" argument a little trite, eh?

They'll argue for that outcome, then immediately accuse the Prez of losing the war, cutting and running...the whole shebang...and won't sweat the hypocrisy for one second.

Fish on...

Todd

+2

Politicians would be alot more careful picking our fights if it was mandatory to re-instate the draft if we declared war. It seems many people think it's ok to send our soldiers on multiple deployments because after all, they did volunteer for it. The politicians might start thinking about their own children. Or, their potential constituents children.

I don't agree with the Death penalty in any case so, I'm fine with no State sanctioned death in this case. However, just as any criminal is ultimately responsible for their actions, so is this guy if he is convicted. We don't allow mitigating circumstances in the case for innocence or guilt in a Civilian court, those circumstances are only appropriate for the penalty phase. So it should be in this case. I'm so tired of people giving excuses for this heinous action. My God, there was a majority of women and children in this case. Excuses are like _________ , everyone's got one and they all stink!

Well Aunty, the Sun is rising in the West today - you have decided to make excuses for a murderer. Please remember that is a knife that cuts both ways.

Kinda reminds me of that alleged nut that shot Gifford and a 9 year
little girl and several others. Now he is a declared nut and will not
stand trial is the last I have heard on the issue.

However, the Sgt, being a vet, and the leader of men, admittedly
killed those women and kids. "I did it," are his alleged comment on
the matter. The classice question is WHY. What drives one to violate
all his military training and basic human taboos to do such a thing?

He should be treated no differently than any other...if he's judged competent to stand trial, then he does, and if he's found guilty, then he does his time, and if that includes getting gassed, then so be it.

If he's not competent to stand trial, then it's off to the loony bin.

If someone else fukked up and he never should have been sent back out there, then line 'em up...there's plenty of room on the docket for them next.

Fish on...

Todd

It's reasonable to think this way.
But I feel it is a bit different than the all-to-common shootings that happen in our society.

As Aunty said, we take these guys and teach them to kill. Then we send them to the outskirts of Hell and beyond.
Maybe his buddy's brain matter was blown into his face or some other horrendous experience caused him to snap.
Maybe it was a culmination of things.

With some of his history leaking out, it's starting to look like this Sergeant should not have been allowed to go back. Even if he checked out OK, 4 combat tours ?

It's a no-win and it's something that happens in all wars.
This is where we are sending our people when we go off to war.
The cost is high.

I agree...but the "schit happens in war zones" excuse doesn't hold any water with me...society in general fails people all the time, people don't become criminals because their life is awesome and they're happy, we just don't let them blame it on someone else when they get popped.

Fish on...

Todd

Didn't you know Ranty knows it all, just ask her.

I bet he's already been airlifted out of Afghanistan...

Fish on...

Todd

Nuthin' funny about this.
Asked...leaked...does it really matter ?

War sucks and it touches all of us while sucking.
Maybe we can agree on that.

Yup.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57397450/suspect-in-afghan-massacre-flown-out-of-country/

Maybe they'll send him to Egypt or Syria to be tortured...oh, wait, that's where we send "them" when they commit terrorist acts, not where we send "us" when we do the exact same thing.

Fish on...

Todd

We had a few ANA Officers that spoke good english.

I think everyone understands that... but it didn't change his conviction, they just set aside his sentence of death.

If the Court found that his PTSD rendered unable to tell the difference between right and wrong at the time he committed the murders (which is the M'Naughton rule, the standard for how an insanity plea or competency hearing is conducted), then that would be a wholly different matter.

Fish on...

Todd

...and, as an aside, reports are coming back that he walked back to his barracks, set down his weapon, and surrendered...that would make it pretty clear to me that he was in no way legally insane at the time of the murders.

Usually the "support our troops" crowd and the "tough on crime" crowd are the same crowd...this time they'll have to pick a side, without being hypocrites, which will be very difficult.

For me, at least, I'm fully in the "support our troops" crowd, but when one of them goes apeshit and shoots a bunch of innocent civilians, well, it's hard to throw much support his way. If he's found to be innocent by way of insanity, then I'll accept that. If he's not, and gets gassed, I'll accept that. If they find a lesser sentence, and base it on his service, then I'm even more ok with that.

He'll get no excuses for what he did from me, though.

If there were folks at the VA or wherever who knew or should have known that this guy was no longer fit for service, then I think they should be run up the flagpole right after him.

I feel sorry for him, and others like him, because it's pretty fukked up to be trained to be a killer, then not be one, but there are a few hundred thousand other soldiers over there, and a few million more in the past, that managed to kill the enemy without going on a rampage and shooting up a family or other civilians.

Fish on...

Todd

Marsha, the Supremes made no excuse for murder. They said that mitigating circumstances (PTSD, combat, etc.) provided reasons for reducing the penalty. Huge difference.

Yes, we trained this man to be a killer. However, he voluntarily joined and as has been said before, there are millions more who were trained that did not kill women and children in a cold blooded way.

I remember Mai lai. Calley had a lot of help in shooting up that local.
and he took most of the hit after rather than the mentality that relegates the indigents to enemies all.

What ever made the Sgt decide to off a bunch of civilians, women and
kids, is beyond my ken but I don't think he is 'Criminally insane' by the
definition. Maybe they should send him to Fort Hood to be evaluated
by the shrinks there.

This whole story saddens me and the media is loving it. I thought at first that he had volunteered for a fourth tour and figured that he was doing what he wanted to be doing.
Then I found out that he was "sent over" and was having family problems and unhappy about another tour (who could blame him?). The whole thing really sucks. Four combat tours is too much for anyone....so is three.
His thinker was no doubt so screwed up with being powerless to do anything about "home", that I'm guessing he said to himself....."I'm getting out of here.....NOW! To Hell with the price!"

Desperate men do desperate things. Very sad.

He won't get the death penalty.

His wife and kids are victims too. But of who? His commanding
officers perhaps. Those that used him once too many times.

Bearing in mind that this man is innocent until proven guilty, I still have to call BS on all the excuses that are being made about how this guy is a victim. That dishonors every combat soldier in theater that chooses not to deal with his/her issues by killing women and children. What next, we make excuses for Ted Bundy because his mother abandoned him?

Most everyone who goes apeshit and massacres multiple people was dealt some sort of shitsandwich by life...do they all get free passes, or just soldiers?

Fish on...

Todd

Yes it is...and there's no way to make it less than it is...but soldiers who turn mass murderer aren't the only mass murderers who have had schit go sideways in their lives.

Fish on...

Todd

We need to get out of there NOW!! No way any of our fine patriots should have to do four tours in a hell hole. Why doesn't Obama or any of the Rs stand up and say let's stop this nonsense. WTF do we think we will accomplish with another summer there?

I heard yesterday that suicides and attempted suicides among our service people are through the roof. We are quick to send them, off to war - slow to take care of them when they return. 32,000 wounded in Iraq. It a damn crime.

This from Washington Post

LAST YEAR, 143 soldiers, 41 sailors, 41 Marines and 31 airmen took their own lives. For the first time, suicides in the Army have outpaced the rate for the same demographic group in the nation at large, with the highest number since the Pentagon began keeping track in 1980.

Chuck, no I have not served in the Armed Forces. Does your question mean that for every other mass murderer, we can only understand if we have been:

orphaned
sexually abused
had drug addicted parents
lost family members due to murder
locked up in the home

I am very appreciative of this man's service and his mental state should absolutely be used as a mitigating factor in sentencing (if found guilty). But, it can never be used as an excuse for the act itself unless you are willing to let everyone else use any excuse that they have.

There is no excuse. However, there are apparently some mitigating
circumstances. What he did, based on his training and who he is
is absolutely insane. For what it's worth I cannot accept the fact
that if he had just ate a bullet it would be no big deal. The chit
that goes on in the sand box called the ME is truly what the Heart
of Darkenss is all about.

Aunty, you are now dancing on the head of a pin. Some excuses for mass murder are more worthy than others. I don't consider myself unempathatetic in this, or any other, case. However, there has to be a reason why the other combat soldiers in theater have not resorted to this.

Could it be that no two humans are exactly alike and react to stress in different ways ?

I think you fell off the pin.


What more can be said ?
It's a shiddy deal.......

Just try to walk in another man's shoes. There is no limit to the depths
or the heights that man can fathom.
Even so his alleged acts are unacceptable. Who will share his guilt?
I know eddie, not you.

I'm not sure if you guys are purposely and willingly misinterpreting what eddie says, or just not getting it...and I hate to say it, but it looks a lot more like purposely and willingly misinterpreting it to me.

Fish on...

Todd

I know what he's saying and I disagree.

Mostly bad is going to come out of this. That's a given.
But maybe some good.
Maybe we need to be more careful when we're thinking about sending our troops off to war.
Because when we do, we are agreeing to risking tragedies like this.

We opened up two simultaneous, long duration wars.
Sent warriors on multiple tours.
The law of averages caught up.

There's a ton of blame to go around, and it starts with being there in the first place, a whole bunch of fault in between there and here, and then with the guy who pulled the trigger a couple hundred times.

None of them gets a free pass, including him, to my mind...the bummer is that he, as always, will be the scapegoat for the rest while getting his just deserves.

Fish on...

Todd

It's looking like Todd will get his "bad soldier" wish. Seems this SSgt was bilking oldsters out of a ton of cash and in legal troubles up to his neck when he enlisted to run away from his obligations. Ugh.

Just when I thought it couldn't get any worse.
I'll wait for the facts.

I have no such wish...in fact, the only wish I have is that this, and whatever contributed to causing, had never happened.

Fish on...

Todd

P.S. The "bad soldier" thing is kind of a given when you take your weapon and purposely shoot fourteen or fifteen civilians, mostly women and children.

I agree that no good will come out of this, but I'll be damned if I draw distinctions between mass murderers. Everyone has an excuse, let one in you have to let them all in. Is that what you guys want?

Aunty, I remember that you and a couple others were with me in questioning whether going into Afghanistan and Iraq was in the best interest of the US. Notwithstanding the collateral damage that this soldier represents, it was still a terrible decision (especially Iraq).

Shades of the old 7th Cavalry. But he didn't have the Son of Morning
Star for an ossifer.

Not pulling the trigger on himself shows he was a true coward.

How many Muslims were killed or injured by attacks from other Muslim's in the last 24-48 hours? Many more than what this US soldier killed. So where's the outrage and marching in the streets for justice?

I guess a Muslim's life only matters when they've been killed by a foreigner and you can use it for propaganda and its worthless when its taken by a fellow Muslim.

What he did was wrong and I don't believe you can use PTSD as an excuse but I also have to agree with Sky-guy. While I was in Afghanistan we had a greater number of civilians (locals) killed/injured by the Taliban (insurgents) than the number of Taliban (insurgents) we killed/injured/captured. Now that was only in the 4 COPs I worked out of so a pretty small area (which actually happends to be about 5KM from were this took place) but I would think it would hold mostly true for most of the country.

Too bad we cannot just strike our tents and diddi mau. Those folks in the sand box have been fighting for centuries. As England, Germany, Russia and we have discovered. They are perfectly willing to die since
living that way they do is such fun.
Let's get out, and reserve the right to flatten any site that appears to
be being used as a training site or bivouac for those involved in Intenational terror plots.
and then 'Oh Joy' we can shoot first and investigate later.

btw I don't think anybody is delibrately misunderstanding eddie.
He wants to play Christian to the Roman Lions and that's his
perogative. Just lay off the proselityzing about it.

a link

http://www.michaelyon-online.com/sergeant-godsmack-vs.-nazar.htm

Heavy stuff there, Illy

I have a marine friend that was discharged with PTSD. The meds they gave him to help his symptoms made him worse. It was like he was roid raging all the time. He'd randomly just hit people and start fights. Once he got off the meds, his symptoms virtually disappeared.

They send you to a s***hole with a gun and authorize you to kill those who oppose your presence. Then expect you to shut it off like a switch... when it's not "appropriate".

No excuses here though, just common sense.